BREXIT |OT| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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FliXFantatier

Master of the Reality Stone
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,964
Los Angeles
American here: can anyone explain to me the thought process behind The Independent Group? Reading their ideology, they don't seem that different than what I understand as the LibDems's ideology? Especially in regards to Brexit? I'm also a little confused at why you'd start another centrist party in a FPTP system?
No one knows, wish we could tell you. :p
You covered most of the bases with your analysis, there is not a lot more to add.
 

War Peaceman

Member
Oct 28, 2017
865
American here: can anyone explain to me the thought process behind The Independent Group? Reading their ideology, they don't seem that different than what I understand as the LibDems's ideology? Especially in regards to Brexit? I'm also a little confused at why you'd start another centrist party in a FPTP system?
They are a bunch of chancers. Any valid oncerns they have should be buried beneath their cynicism and incompetence.
 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,125
I still can't get over being so supposedly anti-racist that you launch a new splinter party, only to be racist on television within hours
 

kmag

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,843
Thanks to the new EU / Japan trade deal, it doesn't even need to be in the EU.
I don't think Honda's decision was totally do with Brexit. They produce Civic's all over the world (Canada, the US, Malaysia, Brasil) and relatively few in Japan. But the Civic is due a refresh, the current model is 2016 and historical Honda don't really let the Civic go more than 5 years without a refresh, and concidently or not 2021 seems to be when production is going to taper off.

If you can remove uncertainty from your business then it's a no brainer. The capital costs are largely off the books for a factory as old as Swindon, so you're only really paying to exit.
You don't have to pay to ship the cars across the world if they've produced in the market you're selling to. If you're doing high volumes it doesn't make sense to stick that many cars on boats.

However, Honda doesn't sell well in Europe, with fairly small sales figures it's not too surprising they're closing the factory down.
Honda's UK plant output less than 50% sold in the UK/EU (35%ish EU27, 15% UK) so the EU/JPN deal really doesn't have massive amounts to do with it. It's certainly a factor though and it helps increase the competitiveness of the Japanese plants facing the EU, and obviously Brexit decreases the UK plants competitiveness (as 40% of it's components come from the EU)
Honda's other European facilities: a logistics hub in Belgium and a small factory in Turkey (produces 50k vehicles per year to Swindon's 150k) are supposedly affected as well. I imagine the Turkish plant is simply too small to run by itself.

I've no doubt btw that Honda's Press release tomorrow will steer clear of Brexit, talking about global strategies, electric vehicles, tough markets and maybe a reference to instability, I mean why would you want to piss off 50% of your potential UK consumers.
 

Praetorpwj

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,059
American here: can anyone explain to me the thought process behind The Independent Group? Reading their ideology, they don't seem that different than what I understand as the LibDems's ideology? Especially in regards to Brexit? I'm also a little confused at why you'd start another centrist party in a FPTP system?
Probably a wild swing against Corbyn. They can hang on until 2022 before having to be re-elected unless external events intervene. They are just independents without a party or manifesto. It’s a lightning rod for Corbyn resistance within the PLP. If he gets the push in favour of a more centrist leader they can negotiate to rejoin.
 

SwitchedOff

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,643
Of course people are blinkered. Thats kinda the problem with British culture. Its a culture of ignorance and extremes. Culture of extreme media partisanship.

UK is the only major country in the world where all three of the biggest read news sources are tabloids. The culture of Britain is to be ignorant and sensational. This is nothing new. Expecting anything else is setting yourself up for disappointment.
The UK media, particularly the foul right wing rags, have a hell of a lot to answer for. And not just regarding Brexit either.
 

Pankratous

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,182
Still can't believe this is happening.

Still can't believe it's just over a month until it happens and I still don't know what will really happen outside of everything being fucked.

Fuck saaaaaaake.
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,307
I've made a decision to buy any long life stuff that's on offer in the supermarkets over the next couple of months...
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,307
I'm also giving serious consideration to putting a chest freezer into either my kitchen or my garage. Order a shitload of protein before it's all chlorine washed or £30 a kg.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,743
I'm also giving serious consideration to putting a chest freezer into either my kitchen or my garage. Order a shitload of protein before it's all chlorine washed or £30 a kg.
I did this 6 months ago. If you can get a Costco membership you'll fill it in a single shop

Plus the underrated benefit of not worrying about having to go out and buy more milk, as you can just overbuy and freeze it
 

Praetorpwj

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,059
I'm also giving serious consideration to putting a chest freezer into either my kitchen or my garage. Order a shitload of protein before it's all chlorine washed or £30 a kg.
Mine lands Friday (no joke). Went with 250L but kind of wish I had gone bigger. If your going to put it outside make sure it’s one that can operate down to -15C.
 

Sir Hound

Member
Oct 28, 2017
558
American here: can anyone explain to me the thought process behind The Independent Group? Reading their ideology, they don't seem that different than what I understand as the LibDems's ideology? Especially in regards to Brexit? I'm also a little confused at why you'd start another centrist party in a FPTP system?
Speaking as a Lib Dem voter, the Lib Dems are done. Sadly too tarnished by the coalition.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,739
Manchester, UK
Yep, and i was one of those leave voters in Swindon. I'm trying my best to convince people that changing their mind is fine but people are just blinkered. People even today arguing the toss and now i'm being sent abuse on facebook for it.

The MP's still lying to us are to blame not the people at the time of voting but anyone still advocating for leave is now just deluded in my opinion. Will hurt this town pretty badly.
Sorry, but no - voters were repeatedly warned that leaving would be disastrous and still chose to do it anyway. I am glad you have realised the damage leaving will do, but this is on it's voters as well as the lying politicians that sold it to them
 

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,044
I'm all for not putting all the blame, all the time on voters, but at some point you need to take ownership of your shit.

Plenty of people voted leave because of low information, false promises and prejudice. We all make mistakes and have voted against our own interests because of those or similar reasons. But supporting Brexit at this stage, specially No Deal, takes some will.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,743
I'd be more willing to accept the "people were misled and it's not their fault" line if I hadn't just spent the last two years being aggressively told "I know what I voted for!". They know what they voted for.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,522
Yeah, to still hold a leave view, hard or cake at this point or get on with it lalalala is not a good look. No excuse.
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,307
It's funny the amount of people talking about how all of these companies have other reasons for leaving / going out of business. Of course they fucking do, that's entirely the point.

Brexit doesn't kill a company that's operating at massive margins (at least until no-deal), it kills the ones that are barely profitable. The ones where it only takes something small to go wrong somewhere in the chain for things to start to fail catastrophically.
 

Mr_Moogle

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,220
I find it amazing how only something like 36% of people aged 18-24 voted in the referendum. Younger people are going to be fucked harder than anybody by Brexit but they did nothing to stop it from happening. I wonder if they will still be apathetic when the UK's economy starts crumbling around them?
 

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,044
You've got to think Toyota is on shaky ground as well
And concern, a lot, about what Nissan may do after kicking out Ghosn and trying to do something about setting a new course.

The UK is far from being a monoculture economy, but Brexit coupled with the EU-Japan trade deal could turn beyond ugly for the industry. And I think it's pretty wild that nobody seemingly noticed the combination of both factors.

I'm a rube on the internet, but there are people charged with doing that kind of analysis.
 

Corporal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
666
Ah geez, that Guardian liveblog thing is a harsh read.
Having confirmed that its Swindon plant is to close, Honda now appears to be saying that the number of job losses could reach 7,000, double what was expected.

That’s because it is consulting with subsidiaries and partners in the supply chain serving the Swindon plant, meaning a further 3,500 jobs could go.
How blyatyful.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,555
I find it amazing how only something like 36% of people aged 18-24 voted in the referendum. Younger people are going to be fucked harder than anybody by Brexit but they did nothing to stop it from happening. I wonder if they will still be apathetic when the UK's economy starts crumbling around them?
I'm pretty sure that statistic was debunked, though not before it was used to dismiss young people's concerns about what in the flying fuck the country was doing to itself.
 

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,044

Looking forward classic conservative think tanks telling Tories how tariffs on imported produce and interventionism are that good shit.
 

Fiocca

Member
Feb 1, 2019
48
I'm all for not putting all the blame, all the time on voters, but at some point you need to take ownership of your shit.

Plenty of people voted leave because of low information, false promises and prejudice. We all make mistakes and have voted against our own interests because of those or similar reasons. But supporting Brexit at this stage, specially No Deal, takes some will.
I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
 

Blent

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,027
East Midlands, England, UK
I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
I respect you for that. Honestly. I just wish there were a lot more of you.
 

danowat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,906
I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
In all fairness, it's a bit bloody late for all that now isn't it?

Even if you do manage to change peoples minds, Brexit is happening, and it's those who voted for it, for whatever reasons, fault.
 

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,044
I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
Full respect for that.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,739
Manchester, UK
I'm all for not putting all the blame, all the time on voters, but at some point you need to take ownership of your shit.

Plenty of people voted leave because of low information, false promises and prejudice. We all make mistakes and have voted against our own interests because of those or similar reasons. But supporting Brexit at this stage, specially No Deal, takes some will.
I broadly agree, but in things like Austerity or support for raising Tuition fees. But with the EU referendum, the information was there, and was being pushed very heavily by the government (and opposition) at the time. This wasn't a case of "low information", the information was there and readily available, but people chose not to believe it, despite all the debunking of the Leave campaigns promises/lies


I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
Doing this is a good and commendable thing, but that doesn't change the fact that Leave voters aren't blameless here. It isn't all on the MP's (or media) who lied about Leave being a good idea
 

Mr_Moogle

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,220
I'm pretty sure that statistic was debunked, though not before it was used to dismiss young people's concerns about what in the flying fuck the country was doing to itself.
There are conflicting reports. Some have it at 64% for 18 to 24 year olds which isn't great but I guess it isn't insanely low for a non-mandatory vote.
 

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,107
I broadly agree, but in things like Austerity or support for raising Tuition fees. But with the EU referendum, the information was there, and was being pushed very heavily by the government (and opposition) at the time. This wasn't a case of "low information", the information was there and readily available, but people chose not to believe it, despite all the debunking of the Leave campaigns promises/lies
I mean when people cite lack of information they generally mean it in a broader sense than that. The majority of the people of our country is just not knowledgeable enough to make a well informed decision of whether we should leave or stay in the EU. People don't get taught much at all about the EU, what it is, what it does, how it works and so on. Sure you can argue people should maybe learn themselves, but to be honest, we live in a representative democracy system where we vote for people to know that kind of stuff - in that sense the referendum should have never been put to the people. All people see is what they read in the news and what was said in the referendum. Now before the referendum, the EU was basically used as a scapegoat in our media for so bloody long for so many issues. Is it any wonder when it came to the referendum a lot of people then questioned why we needed the EU and started believing the Leave lies?

Like I'm not going to defend the people who still think leaving is a good idea so much so that they actually want a no deal, they're either too rich to care, delusional or too proud to admit they're wrong. However, I think it is very easy to see how some people would have been duped into thinking it was a good idea during the referendum due to how awful our media largely is which is where people would have gotten most of their information from.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,739
Manchester, UK
It is significantly their fault if they were preying on and manipulating people's fears
There were still significant sections of the media and MP's telling people that the Leave campaign was wrong, and debunking the stuff they were saying.

Its not like we are living in some totalitarian state where people are brainwashed from birth with misinformation - the information was all there, and being pushed by both the government and the opposition - and yet people chose to ignore it. They have to take some responsibility for that

I mean when people cite lack of information they generally mean it in a broader sense than that. The majority of the people of our country is just not knowledgeable enough to make a well informed decision of whether we should leave or stay in the EU. People don't get taught much at all about the EU, what it is, what it does, how it works and so on. Sure you can argue people should maybe learn themselves, but to be honest, we live in a representative democracy system where we vote for people to know that kind of stuff - in that sense the referendum should have never been put to the people. All people see is what they read in the news and what was said in the referendum. Now before the referendum, the EU was basically used as a scapegoat in our media for so bloody long for so many issues. Is it any wonder when it came to the referendum a lot of people then questioned why we needed the EU and started believing the Leave lies?

Like I'm not going to defend the people who still think leaving is a good idea so much so that they actually want a no deal, they're either too rich to care, delusional or too proud to admit they're wrong. However, I think it is very easy to see how some people would have been duped into thinking it was a good idea during the referendum due to how awful our media largely is which is where people would have gotten most of their information from.
I don't disagree with any of this - but people were still given a choice and made the wrong (and hugely damaging) one. They still take some of the blame.
 

peekaboo

Member
Nov 4, 2017
314
I remember the referendum campaign well and pretty much every single issue that has blown up in the last two years (trading, customs, Ireland and the lot) was touched upon, maybe not in the forensic detail we do know, but they were most definitely present.

The problem is people heard what they wanted to hear and their ears were more attuned to the "taking back control" and anti-immigrant rhetoric. Saying they were not informed back then is totally disingenuous.
 

Fiocca

Member
Feb 1, 2019
48
There were still significant sections of the media and MP's telling people that the Leave campaign was wrong, and debunking the stuff they were saying.

Its not like we are living in some totalitarian state where people are brainwashed from birth with misinformation - the information was all there, and being pushed by both the government and the opposition - and yet people chose to ignore it. They have to take some responsibility for that



I don't disagree with any of this - but people were still given a choice and made the wrong (and hugely damaging) one. They still take some of the blame.
None of us in the @remainernow community (ex leavers) are absolving ourselves of the blame. But equally, our choices are based on information we are given by people that we expect to know more than us.

In my case, i grew up in a xenophobic and anti eu household and the poison fed to me from a very young age. Now the reason this poison existed in the first place lays squarely at the door of the media and politicians peddling this crap over decades.

Yes i could have made a better choice but at the time i was being told in simplistic terms how easy it would be. I didn't understand complex trade issues or that the WTO even existed along with many other issues i now know about.

This issue was simply way way too massive for the average joe to even begin to comprehend, and even now with myself knowing shitloads about all areas to do with brexit, i'm still nowhere near an expert in anything so the average person certainly won't be either.

They should just revoke A50 and be done with it.
 

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,044

This is the kind of stuff that makes companies really antsy.

Next EU summit is at March 21-22. I expect major industrial fuckery and potential big news if May comes empty handed or reenacts Salzburg.
 

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,107
I remember the referendum campaign well and pretty much every single issue that has blown up in the last two years (trading, customs, Ireland and the lot) was touched upon, maybe not in the forensic detail we do know, but they were most definitely present.

The problem is people heard what they wanted to hear and their ears were more attuned to the "taking back control" and anti-immigrant rhetoric. Saying they were not informed back then is totally disingenuous.
Of course, because that's what they've been hearing for the past 10 odd years from our media and politicians.

Who are they going to believe, something echoed every month for the past however many years versus stuff said briefly during a referendum campaign?

You're the one being disingenuous because you're failing to realise that the perception issue against the EU in the UK goes far deeper than just what happened during the referendum. The politicians and the media share a good proportion of the blame(not all, I'm not trying to suggest the voters are faultless) because they spent so much time using Europe as a scapegoat for employment issues, issues on legislation and so on instead of owning those issues as failures(or in some cases choices, when they didn't want to admit the truth) of their own government.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,739
Manchester, UK
None of us in the @remainernow community (ex leavers) are absolving ourselves of the blame. But equally, our choices are based on information we are given by people that we expect to know more than us.

In my case, i grew up in a xenophobic and anti eu household and the poison fed to me from a very young age. Now the reason this poison existed in the first place lays squarely at the door of the media and politicians peddling this crap over decades.

Yes i could have made a better choice but at the time i was being told in simplistic terms how easy it would be. I didn't understand complex trade issues or that the WTO even existed along with many other issues i now know about.

This issue was simply way way too massive for the average joe to even begin to comprehend, and even now with myself knowing shitloads about all areas to do with brexit, i'm still nowhere near an expert in anything so the average person certainly won't be either.

They should just revoke A50 and be done with it.
This entire discussion is predicated on the below post, where you said voters at the time are not to blame

And yeah, I understand that there are plenty of reasons why people were misled into voting Leave, I just don't think they are strong enough for Leave voters not to take more blame here

Yep, and i was one of those leave voters in Swindon. I'm trying my best to convince people that changing their mind is fine but people are just blinkered. People even today arguing the toss and now i'm being sent abuse on facebook for it.

The MP's still lying to us are to blame not the people at the time of voting but anyone still advocating for leave is now just deluded in my opinion. Will hurt this town pretty badly.
 

peekaboo

Member
Nov 4, 2017
314
You're the one being disingenuous because you're failing to realise that the perception issue against the EU in the UK goes far deeper than just what happened during the referendum. The politicians and the media share a good proportion of the blame(not all, I'm not trying to suggest the voters are faultless) because they spent so much time using Europe as a scapegoat for employment issues, issues on legislation and so on instead of owning those issues as failures(or in some cases choices, when they didn't want to admit the truth) of their own government.
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My gripe is with all these people coming out now saying they regret their vote because they weren't properly informed during the referendum. They were, they just chose to listen to what they liked best (the unicorn, the fake sovereignty and the immigration threats).
 

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,107
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My gripe is with all these people coming out now saying they regret their vote because they weren't properly informed during the referendum. They were, they just chose to listen to what they liked best (the unicorn, the fake sovereignty and the immigration threats).
I mean it has everything to do with what you're saying. They weren't properly informed in the years prior to the referendum so their opinions of the EU were skewed. Consequently, I dunno if it's as much they liked it best as much as it's what's been drilled into them for the past 10 years by the Tories. It doesn't completely excuse it or make them faultless, but at the same time it certainly explains it.
 

Number45

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,791
Let's not forget how effective (and not entirely above board) the Leave campaign was in targeting those people who wouldn't otherwise have consumed much in the way of political news.
 

plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,714
Cape Cod, MA
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My gripe is with all these people coming out now saying they regret their vote because they weren't properly informed during the referendum. They were, they just chose to listen to what they liked best (the unicorn, the fake sovereignty and the immigration threats).
This may be splitting hairs somewhat, but if I'm being told contradictory things, and one of them is true, I think it's unfair to say I've been properly informed, because I got the real information mixed in with lots of disinformation.

Just because some of us could tell the lies from the truth, doesn't make it untrue that people were intentionally (and illegally to be honest) misinformed.

Naturally, everyone who voted leave has some culpability for whatever ends up happening as a result of that vote, whether it's what they wanted to happen, whether their vote was based on lies, etc.

Let's not absolve the remain campaign for poor messaging etc, too.

If anything it's worrying that we aren't seeing more people admit they fell for misinformation. People who now regret their vote, while again still culpable for what happens, are probably people we should be showing some sympathy and understanding to, in my opinion. Because while partly to blame they are at least partly victims also.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,946
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My gripe is with all these people coming out now saying they regret their vote because they weren't properly informed during the referendum. They were, they just chose to listen to what they liked best (the unicorn, the fake sovereignty and the immigration threats).
I don't remember the coverage to be balanced at all, even in 2016. It's easy to laugh about unicorns and how dumb one has to be to believe in them. It's like mass propaganda, from the ones in the 1930s to Cambridge Analytica, are nothing more than a Pepsi commercial and easy to brush off if you try hard enough.
When the overwhelming majority of the newspapers available everywhere you look around and even the BBC's "neutral" coverage were overwhelmingly anti-Europe, I find it unfair to expect people to simply go on their mobile phone and read international treaties by themselves. That's the mass media's job, they are the ones who failed the nation and the people they were meant to keep informed.

Moreover, I don't really see the point of pointing the fingers at the Leave voters who are going to end up even more destitute (or, without hyperbole and it's maddening to say so, dead) because of their vote. They're going to be punished, along with the rest of us. What good does it do to tell them how dumb they are and how it's all their fault? Is it supposed to make us feel better about ourselves, how we're so smart and educated because we knew the unicorns were lies? We're all getting crushed by this mess too, but at least we Cassandras knew it was coming and it's supposed to make it sting less?

You know who's not getting punished? Murdoch and all the writers/TV presenters who got us into this mess. If the 4th power was properly working in this country, the last 10 years would have been entirely different. Buffoons would not have been elected where they've been. Their heads should be on spikes before even May's and Cameron's and Boris's and Mogg's.

Unrelated.
 
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