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NekoFever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,009
I think that what constitutes the Labour and Conservative parties in 5 years time will be fairly different to today largely due to the social forces you describe.
We're long overdue a party realignment. The consensuses that hold the major parties together have really frayed, first with Labour and Corbyn, and now with both over Brexit. Lots of natural voters of both parties are left wondering whether they reflect their point of view any more.

If I wasn't stuck in the middle of the shitshow I'd describe it as a politically fascinating time.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,075
Not sure why people think the Conservative party is due to fracture over brexit. Barring a few MPs who are pretty resigned to being deselected, there isn't really a split in the Tory party on brexit beyond 'how batshit do we go?'. The party as a whole is behind brexit in some form or other. Labour has a much larger fundamental split in its base vote than the tories do.
 

Sir Hound

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,195
I'm not into conspiracy theories either but please remember we've had a Russian chemical attack on our soil with hardly any retaliation and as the investigation in the US shows, along with the sudden push of far right groups by online bots, Russia is winning without firing a single shot.

Don't get me wrong I am wildly anti-Russia and I agree with your overall assessment. But this guy is talking about crippling every facet of a country, which will entail mass civilian casualties. That is an absolute act of war that personally I think would be reasonably met with a nuclear strike, and that's why there's absolutely no way this is going to happen.
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,950
Not sure why people think the Conservative party is due to fracture over brexit. Barring a few MPs who are pretty resigned to being deselected, there isn't really a split in the Tory party on brexit beyond 'how batshit do we go?'. The party as a whole is behind brexit in some form or other. Labour has a much larger fundamental split in its base vote than the tories do.
Agreed. The Tory "split" is important now because the Tories are a minority government. So when the DUP, ERG or Soubry/Grieve factions cause trouble it's a big deal. Mogg and Soubry would just be ignored if May had a 50-MP majority.

In terms of the actual tory party and voter base, it's not a big deal. They could lose a few ERG MPs and hardline voters to UKIP if we get a Norway Brexit and they could lose Soubry/Grieve if they go with no deal.

The Tories are also vulnerable, but not when the alternative is an old socialist like Corbyn or McDonnell. My only worry is that even as Brexit destroys the economy, people will just think, "Well, it would be even worse with Corbyn".
I'm thinking of how Major wan't destroyed by Black Wednesday. He limped on for 5 years of disaster and it took a charistmatic centrist reformer like Blair to convince people that Labour could be trusted with the economy. Even then, Blair had to promise not to change Clarke's government spending budget - which basically the opposite of Corbyn's policy to "End austerity, nationalise stuff, create a huge national infrastructure fund".
Tory sleaze was probably a bigger issue than the economic disaster and the infighting with Eurosceptic "bastards".

I hope things have changed, but who knows. Maybe Tory sleaze will do more damage than Brexit, though I suspect attitudes have moved away from caring about that sort of thing.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,108
London
Don't get me wrong I am wildly anti-Russia and I agree with your overall assessment. But this guy is talking about crippling every facet of a country, which will entail mass civilian casualties. That is an absolute act of war that personally I think would be reasonably met with a nuclear strike, and that's why there's absolutely no way this is going to happen.
Yeah this is a bit too crazy. Russia might be run by a bunch of callous, criminal cunts who are capable of doing something like this, but they're still rational actors. Crippling the UK would absolutely start a war, and we're not leaving NATO.

I mean, they will absolutely find a way to keep kicking us while we're down - the zero sum dickheads need others to lose for them to 'win' - but this sort of thing is far too blatant with not enough upside. More likely they'll keep doing what they're already doing: incite and foment existing tensions so we continue to fight among ourselves for years while they laugh it up.
 

Fiocca

Banned
Feb 1, 2019
101
Yeah this is a bit too crazy. Russia might be run by a bunch of callous, criminal cunts who are capable of doing something like this, but they're still rational actors. Crippling the UK would absolutely start a war, and we're not leaving NATO.

I mean, they will absolutely find a way to keep kicking us while we're down - the zero sum dickheads need others to lose for them to 'win' - but this sort of thing is far too blatant with not enough upside. More likely they'll keep doing what they're already doing: incite and foment existing tensions so we continue to fight among ourselves for years while they laugh it up.

Not long ago we had the NHS systems go down due to malware so it's not too far fetched. Additionally, the point of hybrid warfare isn't to start a conventional war, it's to create an atmosphere whereby a state damages itself. As we can see it is highly successful so far and if we do end up with no Deal the government will be overstretched dealing with the fallout of it. That would be the perfect opportunity to cause a situation that would cause internal chaos because the usual government emergency response would be ineffective. Yes I agree it is far fetched but it is totally possible.

No deal without that would make us a failed state either way.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
The thing is, it is easily scaremongering, but a small scale attack on the UK in those days could already do big damage. By for instance giving a small nudge to the customs system that will already be overloaded that day. And that is not something any country will react on using military.
 

Fiocca

Banned
Feb 1, 2019
101
The thing is, it is easily scaremongering, but a small scale attack on the UK in those days could already do big damage. By for instance giving a small nudge to the customs system that will already be overloaded that day. And that is not something any country will react on using military.

Exactly. It doesn't have to be something crazy. Just enough to tip the scales. We've had bloody nerve agents on our soil and done nothing!
 

Blue Lou

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,476
PERMISSION HEARING GRANTED

We are delighted to announce contact from the Civil Appeals Office, regarding our December appeal submission.

We have been granted a further oral hearing on Thursday 21st February at the Royal Courts of Justice, when we will have the opportunity of presenting our case for leave to appeal.

Normally, these proceedings are limited to a mere 20 minutes, but we have been granted a half-day in court.

The Prime Minister's decision - to use the referendum results as the basis for leaving the EU - was irrational, given that result was procured by the illegal activities of the Leave campaign.

We look forward to making these points in court once again, and are grateful to be given this opportunity to do so. We remain confident in our strong legal arguments.

Thank you to all those that have supported us throughout this process and that continue to do so. We could not have come this far without you.

Please continue sharing our details with your friends, family and colleagues. Any donations, no matter how large or small, are most gratefully received!

Thank you!

Sue Wilson – Lead Claimant, on behalf of all claimants – UK in EU Challenge
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/ukineuchallenge/
 
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
We're long overdue a party realignment. The consensuses that hold the major parties together have really frayed, first with Labour and Corbyn, and now with both over Brexit. Lots of natural voters of both parties are left wondering whether they reflect their point of view any more.

I don't think it's just about re-alignment, it's the need for politics to be able to function at all levels beyond a 1-dimensional scale and dualopology politics.
 

Blue Lou

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,476
Robert Peston said:
No matter how many times Theresa May reminds us, it is easy to forget that Labour's manifesto committed it to delivering Brexit.

Equally it is hard to remember that the notorious motion passed by the last Labour conference that opened the door to the party's possible support for a Brexit referendum - as a last resort - was also a restatement of the party's pledge to deliver its own vision of how to leave the EU.

So it was rational for the prime minister to respond in good faith to Jeremy Corbyn's written offer to negotiate Brexit terms that he and his party could support.

And quite apart from the convention that manifesto commitments should be honoured, she will presumably know - since almost everyone else in the UK does - that Corbyn is less attracted to a referendum than he would be to a job offer from Goldman Sachs.

And by way of further evidence, if such were needed, I am told that the original draft of Corbyn's letter to May, which was written by Labour's shadow Brexit secretary Starmer, contained reference to the party's fallback position of a referendum. And this was struck out by Corbyn's office before the letter was sent.

But none of that means there is a deal to be done between Corbyn and May - because the scale of compromise for both may well be beyond what their parties can wear and bear.

To get Corbyn and Labour on board, May would have to sacrifice some of the putative freedoms - such as the ability to ever diverge from the EU on Labour or environmental rules, or to negotiate free trade deals with non-EU countries - that for many Tory Brexiter MPs represent the whole point of Brexit.

And to get his party on board, Corbyn would have to explain why he would be doing a deal whose effect could be to sustain the Tory government in office till 2022.

But as I have said before, there is a deal to be done between May and Corbyn that would command parliamentary support - it would be a version of what some Remainy MPs have styled Common Market 2.0 - so long as neither mind that their respective parties would fracture as a price of that deal.

The point is that May's and Corbyn's visions of a tolerable Brexit are much more aligned than the views of the Brexiter and Remain wings of their own respective parties.

So it is May's and Corbyn's resolve to deliver Brexit and damn the consequences for the institutions that have sustained and nurtured them throughout their entire adult lives that will determine how and even whether the UK leaves the EU.

For both, it is all about whether their perception of the national interest trumps party interest.

PS I am told Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench, to put it mildly - according to multiple sources.

He had agreed that the final part of Corbyn's letter to May would say "if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People's Vote".

A source tells me "LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People's Vote para had gone".

Starmer "called LOTO and was told 'oh we must have forgotten that paragraph'".

Apparently Starmer's reaction has not been one of unbridled joy.

And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum.

One said: "the only interest" of Corbyn and his aides is "seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it".

https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2275522789439120/
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/boris-johnson-brexit-uk-radio-4-today-show-latest-news/

Boris Johnson said that the world was watching Britain and "thinking wow" with admiration at its decision to leave the European Union.

With just over six weeks to go until the official leave date, there are concerns among senior MPs that the a deal will not be reached, leaving the British economy at risk of significant disruption.

But in an interview with the BBC's Today programme, the former foreign secretary insisted that he was still confident that would not happen and that – even if the UK leaves without a deal -"responsible" officials would not allow prices to be hiked.

He also played down concerns that a steep fall in the value of sterling could see food prices soar for Brits and said: "The pound will go where it will."

What a complete idiot.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,108
London
PS I am told Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench, to put it mildly - according to multiple sources.

He had agreed that the final part of Corbyn's letter to May would say "if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People's Vote".

A source tells me "LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People's Vote para had gone".

Starmer "called LOTO and was told 'oh we must have forgotten that paragraph'".

Apparently Starmer's reaction has not been one of unbridled joy.

And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum.

One said: "the only interest" of Corbyn and his aides is "seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it"

Not the first time Corbyn has "forgotten" key parts of things to completely water them down, the complete and utter cunt.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,108
London
Seriously have taken a dislike to Corbyn over brexit. For someone who claims to want to do what's best for the collective his only concern right now is himself.
It's become abundantly clear that he's as dishonest as any other politician. What happened to empowering the membership? Giving them a say in policy? Turns out that's only when they agree with him. If they don't, it's sabotage and prevarication without outright rejecting to try and avoid the backlash. Absolutely despicable.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
https://news.sky.com/story/david-da...brexit-might-not-be-such-a-bad-thing-11634361

A 20% fall in the value of the pound in the event of a no-deal Brexit "might not be such a bad thing", David Davis has claimed.

The former Brexit secretary called on the government to deliver a "pro-business, pro-trade, pro-environment" exit from the EU, suggesting Chancellor Philip Hammond could cut taxes and increasing spending in a special no-deal spring budget.

Referring to predictions that sterling could plummet if Britain leaves at the end of March without an agreement with the EU in place, Mr Davis said: "Analysts predict that in the event of no deal, sterling could fall by over 20%. Is this such a bad thing?
"Our goods will become 20% more competitive on the global market and our EU competitors' goods would be less competitive."


Another idiot shares his nonsense.

Seems to ignore that small little nugget that industry requires good to be imported and weak pound makes that a lot more costly.
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,740
Immensely frustrating the Prime Minister is still refusing to budge on any red lines, but it's clear any of these "talks" were in bad faith just to kick the can down the road. She either wants the other parties to have their fingerprints on No Deal too, or to be the canary down the mineshaft on a People's Vote. There's temptation to call it a politically smart play, but honestly it's more of a suicide pact.

Looking like do or die time for Corbyn now.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
Immensely frustrating the Prime Minister is still refusing to budge on any red lines, but it's clear any of these "talks" were in bad faith just to kick the can down the road. She either wants the other parties to have their fingerprints on No Deal too, or to be the canary down the mineshaft on a People's Vote. There's temptation to call it a politically smart play, but honestly it's more of a suicide pact.

Looking like do or die time for Corbyn now.

Corbyn may not like it but he has to get behind a people's vote. He isn't getting an election so he needs to just do what party policy is.
 

Fiocca

Banned
Feb 1, 2019
101
Tusk was right. There is simply no banner or leader for the remain side to gather under because both main parties are facilitating leave. And even though what Major and Blair say is correct, they are simply harming the remain side than helping due to who they are, especially Blair (and Alistair Campbell!). The Lib Dems don't have the ability to be that banner either due to the coalition and also Cable not being somebody that rouses any kind of push back.

The only person that has done anything remotely good for remain is Caroline Lucas. Actually showing that she is listening to why people voted leave and pushing for reform of ourselves but then she is a single MP of a party that has no hope in FPTP so again it's like a dead end.

Even a new party would seriously struggle because our media is so right sided that the media exposure wouldn't be enough.

I just cannot see a way out now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,583
Corbyn may not like it but he has to get behind a people's vote. He isn't getting an election so he needs to just do what party policy is.

I think the prospect of leaving the EU, but being able to lay all the blame the Tories, then becoming PM in an environment where he can rebuild the country according to his socialist principles, is too appetising a prize. Especially when the alternative is likely to be a country run by the hard Brexiteer disaster capitalists of the Conservatives, who would also very much like to be the ones in charge of crafting replacement legislation to suit their own ends.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
It's become abundantly clear that he's as dishonest as any other politician. What happened to empowering the membership? Giving them a say in policy? Turns out that's only when they agree with him. If they don't, it's sabotage and prevarication without outright rejecting to try and avoid the backlash. Absolutely despicable.

If the story is true and not spin to create some distance for Starmer then it's not good, i don't think MPs in the party who were happy with the older new Labour top down system have much room to talk about accountability to be honest.

But I wish he would accept reality and move on to the next stage as agreed. Even if he gets a disastrous tory brexit he won't get in to do anything about it.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
If the economy goes to pot he can't do those things, well I presume that would be the case with less money to spend. It would just make it iron clad that Labour would bankrupt the nation in voters mind so he wouldn't get in anyway.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937
With each week that has passed since November I have become more convinced that there will be no deal. I honestly can't envisage anything else, except perhaps a small extension for a GE which will probably result in another hung parliament anyway
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,970
If the economy goes to pot he can't do those things, well I presume that would be the case with less money to spend. It would just make it iron clad that Labour would bankrupt the nation in voters mind so he wouldn't get in anyway.

The issue is that he does believe that the things won't be that bad even in case of no deal. Or he thinks that he can get away with it by blaming everything on the Tories and that remains to be seen how well it works.
 

tuxfool

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,858
rebuild the country according to his socialist principles, is too appetising a prize.
He is going to inherit a house fire. He can't really get moving on his policies until after he puts out the fire.

The issue is that he does believe that the things won't be that bad even in case of no deal. Or he thinks that he can get away with it by blaming everything on the Tories and that remains to be seen how well it works.

Unless he can make it rain money, he can't actually do anything. Blaming Tories doesn't help him achieve his goal, unless you infer the most cynical of motives.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,583
He is going to inherit a house fire. He can't really get moving on his policies until after he puts out the fire.

I can't see him re-establishing the old neoliberal order before trying to tear it down. But I guess it all comes back to the dichotomy of his support: the old leftists who want things to go back to how they were before Thatcher messed everything up, and the new breed of socially-conscious, educated and relatively affluent, who do quite well out of the status quo, and don't want to see the baby being thrown out with the bathwater. Just as with Brexit, no matter what he does, he's going to upset one set of supporters.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,501
Cape Cod, MA
I wish Corbyn would wake up and realise that he's not going to be PM this year or next year no matter what happens.

Come out against Brexit. Admit that it's going to piss off some of their voters, but hell, it's the right position. It's best for the country. Again, they aren't getting in power now or next year so what does it matter? In a few short years, having been against this *now* will likely be a very advantageous position.

Heck, even vote for the WA to stave off no deal, and make sure to 100% blame the Tories for forcing the impossible choice on them.

Continuing to support Brexit at this point just looks like terrible political strategy to me, and it's so transparently putting your own interests before the country, because Brexit is so blatantly not in the best interest of the country.

If he did that, maybe he'll be PM in four years, or whenever.
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,740
Corbyn may not like it but he has to get behind a people's vote. He isn't getting an election so he needs to just do what party policy is.
Even despite his personal position, I don't think Corbyn anticipated things getting this bad. I'm particularly surprised that May won't back down on her red lines despite the defeats and humiliations, and No Deal lumbering towards us at an increasing pace. We all may have underestimated how far the Conservative party would go to keep itself together, even if it means chucking the country off a cliff.

And so the ball drops into Corbyn's court to do something. Anything to break the logjam, but all options carry risks to backfire spectacularly, so I can understand some amount of dithering. A decision needs to be made very, very soon, however.

Make no mistake, the current situation is absolutely the fault of May and the Conservative party. With the EU making positive noises towards Labour's proposals, and the honest view that reversing Brexit is likely impossible -




- a path to a deal that may pass in Parliament and with the EU27 has opened, but May is the blockade. Again, because she's putting the Conservative party first.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
I wish Corbyn would wake up and realise that he's not going to be PM this year or next year no matter what happens.

Come out against Brexit. Admit that it's going to piss off some of their voters, but hell, it's the right position. It's best for the country. Again, they aren't getting in power now or next year so what does it matter? In a few short years, having been against this *now* will likely be a very advantageous position.

Heck, even vote for the WA to stave off no deal, and make sure to 100% blame the Tories for forcing the impossible choice on them.

Continuing to support Brexit at this point just looks like terrible political strategy to me, and it's so transparently putting your own interests before the country, because Brexit is so blatantly not in the best interest of the country.

If he did that, maybe he'll be PM in four years, or whenever.

This is where I see him going down the wrong route. I think his reading the wants of the labour party membership all wrong. The members don't need an election right now, they want to see some leadership and viable opposition when it comes to brexit.

Corbyn is so fixated on trying to keep constituencies that voted leave onside when it comes to a general election that disaster of brexit doesn't really matter.

The UK crashing out of the EU isn't on him but his crazy if he thinks people will absolve him completly.
 

Stuart444

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,068
What annoys me is that even after all this shit, even if a No Deal happens.

The tories won't get much blame. The Tory shitrags will continue to not Blame the party, Tory loyalist voters will continue to try and find some way to not blame the Tories, etc.

And of course Labour's awfulness will result in the Tories still getting a Minority Government even in the aftermaths of a no deal.

FUCK UK politics.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
Even despite his personal position, I don't think Corbyn anticipated things getting this bad. I'm particularly surprised that May won't back down on her red lines despite the defeats and humiliations, and No Deal lumbering towards us at an increasing pace. We all may have underestimated how far the Conservative party would go to keep itself together, even if it means chucking the country off a cliff.

And so the ball drops into Corbyn's court to do something. Anything to break the logjam, but all options carry risks to backfire spectacularly, so I can understand some amount of dithering. A decision needs to be made very, very soon, however.

Make no mistake, the current situation is absolutely the fault of May and the Conservative party. With the EU making positive noises towards Labour's proposals, and the honest view that reversing Brexit is likely impossible -




- a path to a deal that may pass in Parliament and with the EU27 has opened, but May is the blockade. Again, because she's putting the Conservative party first.


True May isn't playing ball but that's why I think he should say 'I've tried to work with this government but they are too stubborn and it's now time for the people to decide what next'.

That doesn't guarantee another referendum but it at least shows a recognition of those who want one.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
Jeremy Corbyn and Seamus Milne are hardcore brexiters. They always have been. Instead of doing the right thing and kicking them out, we have had 3 years of people making excuses, abusing anyone who pointed out the obvious and even now we still have people in here waiting for him to come out in favour of the EU. He doesn't want a relationship with the EU. All of this, all along, has been a wrecking game and you were all told from the beginning.
 

Deleted member 50969

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 17, 2018
892
I know some may not care about this, but this uncertainty has been murder for anyone (me and others) who want to start a small business and do some investing while holding down a steady job.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937
I know some may not care about this, but this uncertainty has been murder for anyone (me and others) who want to start a small business and do some investing while holding down a steady job.

I've also had my life in a holding pattern for the last year or so. While it's not a business, the expense of starting a family just seems impossible right now
 

Deleted member 50969

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 17, 2018
892
I've also had my life in a holding pattern for the last year or so. While it's not a business, the expense of starting a family just seems impossible right now

The expenses of starting a family can be rough and Brexit has made it even rougher. My hearts goes out to you and your partner, can your parents help you out?
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937
The expenses of starting a family can be rough and Brexit has made it even rougher. My hearts goes out to you and your partner, can your parents help you out?

Unfortunately both our parents are in their 70s and really not physically able to help out there, and it would cost us more than my wife makes in a month to pay for it. I was relying on a promotion in order to make things work for the first few years but my employer has been in full cost-cutting mode for the last year due to Brexit. Hopefully we can get some certainty in 2019 so I can either move up or try for a new job elsewhere.

Can't even get childcare vouchers any more because the Tories killed the scheme
 

Deleted member 50969

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 17, 2018
892
Unfortunately both our parents are in their 70s and really not physically able to help out there, and it would cost us more than my wife makes in a month to pay for it. I was relying on a promotion in order to make things work for the first few years but my employer has been in full cost-cutting mode for the last year due to Brexit. Hopefully we can get some certainty in 2019 so I can either move up or try for a new job elsewhere.

Can't even get childcare vouchers any more because the Tories killed the scheme

Your situation sounds and probably is tough, I salute you for getting out of bed every day.

A thinktank said in 2017 that you would need a household income of 40,800 to sustain a family of four, up 10,800k from a survey Nov 2012.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937
Would you be eligible for the tax-free childcare scheme?

Tax Free Childcare

We used to be on vouchers and switched over to this last year. It actually works out a little better for us that the vouchers.

Yes, that's worth adding to my calculations! I don't think it would make enough difference yet but it would certainly help.

Your situation sounds and probably is tough, I salute you for getting out of bed every day.

A thinktank said in 2017 that you would need a household income of 40,800 to sustain a family of four, up 10,800k from a survey Nov 2012.

Well, I can put food on the table and have a mortgage so I'm doing better than most. I'd say I don't understand how most people manage but I do - debt. It just pisses me off that the party of "family values" has made it so hard for my generation.
 
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