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sprinkles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
517
Port of Dover warns of 'regular gridlock' in event of hard Brexit
The port of Dover has warned there will be serious traffic congestion once a week in the town and on surrounding routes unless the government achieves a Brexit deal involving frictionless trade.

Richard Christian, the port's head of policy, said there would be "regular gridlock" in Kent in the event of a hard Brexit, and disruption to freight traffic on ferries and Eurotunnel services would have a profound impact on Britain's economy.
Before the single market was established in 1993, there were 300 customs officers; there are now 24 in east Kent, James said.

There were also previously 185 customs clearance agents doing the paperwork. "Today, there are only 17, and only five of them of any real size operating a 24-hours-a-day service," he said.

"In 1993, there were between 2m and 2.5m entries; post-Brexit, there will be somewhere in excess of 25m, this including Dover and Eurotunnel. It is obvious to everyone that customs clearance will be woefully inadequate."
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...regular-gridlock-congestion-hard-brexit-trade
More Project Fear right?
 

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
Government wins by 16 votes.

Nothing is gained and even Parliament is desperate to divest themselves of responsibility over the future of the country.
That's the bonkers part of this; if they had got this amendment they'd have been able to divest themselves of responsibility. They could vote down the awful deal that May and co get, and then give the public a referendum on the final deal. Say, 'Now that we know what Brexit is, do you want it?'. Vote for the deal, or vote to stay. It would absolve parliament of the responsibility of exiting the EU based on nearly 3 year old public opinion, that is slowly but surely turning against leaving, and give us an out for this nonsense.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I don't know what's going on at this point. Still a joke train towards the cliff I presume.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
Bercow is going to be a big target with this daft compromise, he's minded to allow an amendment.

I'm not sure why the guardian is calling this long drawn out struggle a victory for May.
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
Bercow is going to be a big target with this daft compromise, he's minded to allow an amendment.

I'm not sure why the guardian is calling this long drawn out struggle a victory for May.
Any result where May doesn't face a No Confidence vote is a victory for her right now.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,209
Hull, UK
Bercow is going to be a big target with this daft compromise, he's minded to allow an amendment.

I'm not sure why the guardian is calling this long drawn out struggle a victory for May.

Three points:

There's not going to be a meaningful vote. We can tell that it's not because DD isn't threatening to resign.

No more Government defeats. Why would Labour try to vote down the Government and risk strife if they aren't going to win, even after wheeling out the sick and pregnant from the hospital?

And finally, no more Tory Rebels. Who's going to give up comfy ministerial positions or stick their neck out to end up on the Express with a set of crosshairs over your face when you know that you're not going to win?

As May isn't going to be able to reach a deal, nor will she be able to capitulate, we're nailed on for the cliff edge hard Brexit now.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,209
Hull, UK
My more considered understanding of what's happened is as follows.

The bill currently specifies that in the event of no deal, a neutral motion will be put to the House in response to the Government's statement on what they intend to do. A neutral motion, under Standing Order 24b, is one for which no amendments can be considered. The Speaker gets to consider whether it is a neutral motion or not, but given that the bill specifies it's a neutral motion, I'm not totally clear how Bercow can justify saying otherwise. (Leaving aside the prospect of another Speaker of course. Mogg could be Speaker by then!)

However, the House is free to agree to disapply standing orders. My question is, how does the House agree to disapply standing orders? I assume there's a vote of some kind, it's not just left up to the Speaker, for example. In which case, who puts the matter to a vote? My current understanding is that it's up to the Government to table a vote on that.

Also



That's it, the EU Withdrawal Bill is on it's way to becoming law.
 
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theaface

theaface

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,149
At this point every so-called rebel who backed the government can do one if they try to act surprised or disappointed when they're inevitably shut out of the process. Just like the leave vote, the turkeys voted for Christmas on this one. Happy holidays.
 

Jexhius

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
965
I for one am shocked that the 'rebels' didn't hold their ground and their 'principles'.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,877
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
That's the bonkers part of this; if they had got this amendment they'd have been able to divest themselves of responsibility. They could vote down the awful deal that May and co get, and then give the public a referendum on the final deal. Say, 'Now that we know what Brexit is, do you want it?'. Vote for the deal, or vote to stay. It would absolve parliament of the responsibility of exiting the EU based on nearly 3 year old public opinion, that is slowly but surely turning against leaving, and give us an out for this nonsense.
Yeah, this is the only approach that makes sense given their current reasoning. If you're voting for dinner and the options are "pizza" or "something else", then no sane person would say the "something else" option is binding when it eventually turns out to be "grass, and the grass is in a meadow full of highly territorial bulls". I won't hold it against them that they tried and failed, but when you did fail, it's time to put your pride aside.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
What can you do really. Nobody has a spine. I never understood the position that the UK needs to show it can walk away from a deal, what does that matter when the EU holds all the cards. There is no strength in the UK position with May deciding over parliament against the EU.
 
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theaface

theaface

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,149
I never understood the position that the UK needs to show it can walk away from a deal

James O'Brien described it perfectly. He said that in almost any negotiation, if you walk away you end up back where you started, the status quo.

With Brexit, it's like setting fire to your house, entering a negotiation to buy a new one, then walking away when you don't like the terms. Or guying to buy a new car, getting your current one cubed in a crusher, and then not knowing how you're going to get home when you can't buy a new one.
 

FSP

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,644
London, United Kingdom
At this point every so-called rebel who backed the government can do one if they try to act surprised or disappointed when they're inevitably shut out of the process. Just like the leave vote, the turkeys voted for Christmas on this one. Happy holidays.

The government is required to force a vote in the House of Commons on neutral terms in the even of No Deal.
They confirmed that the vote being actually on neutral terms is the prerogative of the Speaker.
They confirmed that that vote would be amendable via the suspension of Standing Order 24b.
They confirmed that time would be provided (as is custom) for such a vote to suspend.
The Patten amendment on Northern Ireland means, in the event of No Deal, the government will be forced to bring through legislation to allow for the hasty erection of infrastructure on the border in NI. That legislation, alongside any other legislation needed, would be amendable.
In the event of a deal, the government will need to pass that deal in the House, which will be amendable and is required prior to the agreement being ratified, and then pass a bill implementing the agreement, which also will be amendable.
 

Zaph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,100
I for one am shocked that the 'rebels' didn't hold their ground and their 'principles'.
Ultimately these so-called rebels know they (and their family) are in a better position by being in good standing within a strong Tory party even if the worst possible Brexit happens, rather than outside the party having done the right thing.

Its just how fucked the country is - the ruling class live in a parallel world.
 

ss1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
805
Looks like Hard Brexit is now a near certainty. I can't see any comprise coming from the UK side to deal with the Northern Ireland border issue. I need to sort out and convert my UK driving licence to a German one before we formally leave the EU next year.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I wouldn't go that far. Nothing is set up for a hard Brexit, it's impossible for it to happen at this point or in 2 years. It will be a pointless last minute soft Brexit mess at best.
 

MrMysterio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
I'd work with the assumption of hard brexit. Then you at least prepare for that nightmare scenario. I can totally see Tories hard brexiting for whatever resurrected Empire fever dream they are chasing. Don't underestimate people's ability to go full fascist.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,999
I wouldn't go that far. Nothing is set up for a hard Brexit, it's impossible for it to happen at this point or in 2 years. It will be a pointless last minute soft Brexit mess at best.

That doesn't mean it won't happen. It's not like the government is prepared for any of the other possible scenarios, including soft Brexit.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
Yeah, just because they are not preparing for hard Brexit, doesn't mean there will be no Hard Brexit. they are prepared for NOTHING.
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,957
The government is required to force a vote in the House of Commons on neutral terms in the even of No Deal.
They confirmed that the vote being actually on neutral terms is the prerogative of the Speaker.
They confirmed that that vote would be amendable via the suspension of Standing Order 24b.
They confirmed that time would be provided (as is custom) for such a vote to suspend.
The Patten amendment on Northern Ireland means, in the event of No Deal, the government will be forced to bring through legislation to allow for the hasty erection of infrastructure on the border in NI. That legislation, alongside any other legislation needed, would be amendable.
In the event of a deal, the government will need to pass that deal in the House, which will be amendable and is required prior to the agreement being ratified, and then pass a bill implementing the agreement, which also will be amendable.

Huw, since you seem to be able to decipher the parliamentary legalese (Neutral motions, etc.), what does this mean in terms of the vote?

I am guessing that if there's a deal, parliament has to approve it in a vote, and they get to propose amendments that would also get voted on (i.e. it is not just a take-it-or-leave-it vote). So parliament could accept the deal, reject the deal or pass an amended motion demanding the gov renegotiate some of the terms (like a customs union).
If there's no deal, then a neutral motion means a take-it-or-leave-it yes/no vote. So parliament could accept no deal, or order the government to continue negotiations (i.e. vote no to "no deal") but they could not use the vote to demand specific negotiation terms.
But the speaker could decide to allow amendments in the case of "no deal" because of "reasons" (I have no idea what the reasons might be or if Bercow even has to justify his decision).

What more was it that the opposition wanted in the Brexit bill? An earlier vote that allowed parliament to order some negotiating terms?
It seems like Grieve got what he wanted (a meaningful vote) while the more strongly anti-brexit rebels didn't (the gov will probably continue to do fuck all in negotiations until "no deal" is fait accompli due to the deadlines).

I think this meaningful vote stuff really begs the question, since it's not clear that the government could renegotiate anything. We'd effectively be putting an ultimatum to the EU to extend the A.50 deadline or have no deal if parliament refused to sign off on whatever deal Davis puts before them. It sounds like we're playing 3D chess but don't know the rules.
 

FSP

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,644
London, United Kingdom
OK, so on "what the fudge is going on" there's two great documents. The first is one by the Institute for Government that talks about the entire Brexit process. https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publications/voting-on-brexit

The second is the Commons clerks' view on Grieve 2: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/grieve-2-an-amendable-motion/

--

If there's no deal, the government will present a statement to the House, then table a motion in neutral terms - "that this house has considered the statement by X" or whatever. Due to Standing Order 24b and the prerogative of the Speaker to not be, quote, cavalier, this originally meant to Grieve et al that the motion would not be amendable. Meaning no ability by parliament to block No Deal.

So Grieve et al got very cross and the amendment got pinged back from the HoL.

The government then went to the House of Commons clerks and asked "look, could you actually define what 'neutral terms' means in a bill".

The conclusion by the clerks was simple: even though a bill might mention or supposedly require a standing order to be or not to be in place, that has no legal impact.

I.e. even though the government can present a motion in neutral terms, the Speaker actually makes this call on if it is actually neutral. And if it's not neutral, then it can be amended. And this does not violate the Withdrawal Act.

But if the Speaker has to not be cavalier, how does he decide it's not neutral? Obviously it's worded in a neutral way. Standing Order 24b even says what a neutrally-worded motion looks like.

Answer: the Speaker could still decide it's not neutral, but they'd probably be triggering a major constitutional incident. This leads to cries by Mogg etc of "victory!".

Not so.

Any MP can put a motion before the house that could disapply (ignore) Standing Order 24b. If a majority of MPs in a vote then vote to do so, suddenly the Speaker can't decide if it's a neutral motion as that's been disapplied. Meaning suddenly a neutral motion is amendable.

But wait! Thanks to other Standing Orders, government business is conducted first, with everything else being pushed aside by it. This means that the government has to do what's called "making time" to allow for member's motion to come forward. That's what they're doing with Hobhouse's Upskirting Bill.

But this means the government has to make a decision on if they want to make time for a vote on whether to disapply a standing order to allow for an amendment to a neutral motion following a statement made in the event of No Deal. This fudge is so big it is the only human structure visible from space. They will categorise it as one of the Modern Wonders of the World.

But anyway, they won't do that, will they?

Hence why the last paragraph of that Ministerial statement was co-written by Grieve:

"The Government recognises that it is open for Ministers and members of the House of Commons to table motions on and debate matters of concern and that, as is the convention, parliamentary time will be provided for this."

This means the Government, in writing but not in law, has committed to providing time for votes on "matters of concern" - like, for example, if a standing order should apply.

I said a few days ago that the most likely thing that would happen with the Grieve 2 amendment would be that Grieve and Davies come to a compromise to make a decision on whether the motion is amendable later. This is exactly what has happened.

The climb-down by Grieve is that he's allowed the government to have the initiative. They could go back on Davies' statement and deny time for a vote on the standing order. Which is why the exact parliamentary maths of the Grieve 2 vote was so interesting. Why did four extra Tories rebel when they didn't need to?

Simple: because it demonstrates to the government that there are the numbers - and there certainly are - to defeat the government on any and all legislation they'd need to do to bring about No Deal. Or, of course, vote the government down in a vote of no confidence, which would be justified if backstabbing occurs during an extraordinarily severe crisis like No Deal with three months to prep for it.

--


"I think this meaningful vote stuff really begs the question, since it's not clear that the government could renegotiate anything. We'd effectively be putting an ultimatum to the EU to extend the A.50 deadline or have no deal if parliament refused to sign off on whatever deal Davis puts before them. It sounds like we're playing 3D chess but don't know the rules."

Hence why the meaningful vote being amendable is big news - it would instruct the government to take the deal the EU presents or extend A50. It shunts idiotic No Deal fatalism off the table.

EDIT: Fixed typos
 
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Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Still giving it to November time were nothing has changed and the Government (well at least some) realise it is pointless
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,490
I guess if the current UK government were told by a majority of the public to all drive off a cliff in a bus then they would all do it. I better get that petition started I'm sure I could get enough people to sign, and if its the will of the people....
 
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theaface

theaface

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,149
Huw, thanks for the thorough explanation, as much as it makes my head spin. In your opinion, why did Grieve et al not simply defeat the government on Wednesday and avoid a huge chunk of this 'what if' nonsense? Is it just as simple as doing their best to tow the party line for as long as they can?
 

FSP

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,644
London, United Kingdom
Pretty much, yes. Grieve wanted an amendable motion and the government said it's amendable. Grieve is negotiating in good faith and doesn't actually want to bring the government down.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
My parents always said: "If your friend told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?" in response to a stupid thing I did and my excuse was "but [friend] did it too!"

So will of the people is stupid if the reason is stupid.
 

Oilvomer

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
The news today that applications go live in a few weeks for EU people to get settled status is a indication the UK has no intention of going for a 'no deal'

You simply would not start that process as you would be effectively giving up a strong card, this to me is the clue that some sort of Brexit will be thrashed out
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,875
Metro Detroit
The news today that applications go live in a few weeks for EU people to get settled status is a indication the UK has no intention of going for a 'no deal'

You simply would not start that process as you would be effectively giving up a strong card, this to me is the clue that some sort of Brexit will be thrashed out
I mean it's what they had agreed to do for the longest time now. And it is just the decent thing to do. Keeping that "strong card" would cause the EU side to go ballistic.
 

Oilvomer

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
I mean it's what they had agreed to do for the longest time now. And it is just the decent thing to do. Keeping that "strong card" would cause the EU side to go ballistic.

According to the Goverment the EU are not reciprocating yet

The home secretary accused EU nations, such as France and Spain, of failing to match the UK's progress on plans for expats after Brexit.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Does any other country refer to their people who emigrated as ex pats. Surely they are just British immigrants but nobody ever says that?
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,875
Metro Detroit
Does any other country refer to their people who emigrated as ex pats. Surely they are just British immigrants but nobody ever says that?
People who move abroad themselves refer to themselves as expats, because it sounds nicer than immigrant. :p

To be fair expat is probably usually more temporary and an immigrant is more permanent?!
 
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Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,694
Does any other country refer to their people who emigrated as ex pats. Surely they are just British immigrants but nobody ever says that?
As far as I can tell it's a pretty uniquely British thing. I've seen it across some European student circles, but that's all. Workers and partners (ie: foreign nationals married to a local citizen) are always emigres and people tend to refer to themselves as such. I think it was a more popular term back in the day than it is now, but I may be biased since Spanish emigres tend to wear at as a badge of honour (as in "fuck the Spanish gov, I'm out").

Regarding the status of British citizens in France and Spain, I'm a bit confused about the situation. IIRC both countries offered dual citizenship/comparable rights, but I haven't heard of any particular talks, so I don't really know about the current situation.
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
I think white people who move to a different country call themselves expats. Many Frenchs and some Spaniards I know do.
In reality, the only difference with immigrants is their skin colour.
 

Jmvm

Member
Oct 31, 2017
508
Stubbington, UK
Expats was used in 60 and 70's in Portugal also "expatriados",mostly to differentiate mainland Portuguese nationals living in the ex colonies. It's just a pompous name for immigrants
 
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