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BREXIT |OT| A minister always pays his debts

Oct 25, 2017
3,009
London
Bingo! He won’t win polls still have give the Tories the edge so it’ll be a complete mess whilst the Brexit bomb continues to tick.



A GE right now will get ugly. This what bothers me with Corbyn, he insists that there is a better deal but he’ll run into the same problem as May, struggling to get it through Parliament.
Every way forward is going to be ugly, the least ugly one for me is a new referendum but we are going to be in a bad place for a few years whatever happens.

The general election is more a waste of time than anything else with the country split down the middle.
 
wot

first of all, no

second of all, have you seen what happens when people try to hold this and the previous two governments accountable?
What! A GE right now is not we need, we need is to see this subject brought to a close no more unicorn in the sky deals just sort it out. I may not like Corbyn but he has pushed back on the government, he forced a vote which found the Government in contempt of Parliament and pushed for the PM to set a date on the meaningful vote so she can’t run the clock down. That is what he should be doing not pushing for a GE.

Every way forward is going to be ugly, the least ugly one for me is a new referendum but we are going to be in a bad place for a few years whatever happens.

The general election is more a waste of time than anything else with the country split down the middle.
I agree either way now is going to have serious implications in the future. A GE would be another distraction and not solve anything.
 
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Oct 31, 2018
418
Labour will become bedfellows with the SNP, it is the obvious call. He can then do a Norway option. And would have a healthy majority, my only issue is Scotland have it really good at the moment without the UK having to give even more...

But if Corbyn does not keep his promise of getting rid of tuition fees, then fuck him, don’t want him
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,981
Chesire, UK


What! A GE right now is not we need
We currently have a Tory government, so a GE is the first thing we need.

Now granted, it's a Tory government with no majority, unable to get almost any business done, and totally consumed by Brexit, but it's still a Tory government.

A GE is the only way forward for the country, leaving the Tories in power is no solution to anything.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,106
What! A GE right now is not we need, we need is to see this subject brought to a close no more unicorn in the sky deals just sort it out. I may not like Corbyn but he has pushed back on the government, he forced a vote which found the Government in contempt of Parliament and pushed for the PM to set a date on the meaningful vote so she can’t run the clock down. That is what he should be doing not pushing for a GE.
The Conservatives are absolute cancer on the country and have been almost solely responsible for the way things have gotten worse, aside from the Lib Dems' pathetic attempt at being clever, the Tories have needlessly hacked away at society and the economy for purely ideological reasons.

The Labour party, and any other opposition MP, lending a hand to fix the Tories mess wouldn't just be political suicide but it would shore up these bastards for perhaps another government.

Boot them out and fuck them off for generations, preferably forever if enough of those Tory wankers just die off.
 
Oct 28, 2017
417
Every way forward is going to be ugly, the least ugly one for me is a new referendum but we are going to be in a bad place for a few years whatever happens.

The general election is more a waste of time than anything else with the country split down the middle.
Yaps a second referendum is likely the best option to show the shift in the public opinion to the politicians and maybe move more of them towards something like remain, but at this point outside of the EU giving an extension that ship has almost assuredly sailed, just super unlikely a referendum would be completed in time, which is also why what comes after next week is going to be super interesting.

Even if he weren't being disnhonest, do we really think the Japanese, with plentiful supply of "wagyu" are going to want to import any of our beef? And they don't eat lamb over there either. Might as well do a deal with the Saudi's to supply sand and pork.
Not super on topic but sand is not the best comparison, since Fun fact they do in fact buy sand from other countries, Saudi Arabia buys sand all the way from Australia, marine sand which is different from the sand found in the deserts is actually a dwindling resource, especially with developing economies building like crazy given that marine sand is by far the primary material for concrete.
 

plagiarize

Yearning to breathe free
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,150
Cape Cod, MA
We currently have a Tory government, so a GE is the first thing we need.

Now granted, it's a Tory government with no majority, unable to get almost any business done, and totally consumed by Brexit, but it's still a Tory government.

A GE is the only way forward for the country, leaving the Tories in power is no solution to anything.
You need a new government ASAP. An election right now wouldn't give you that. Even if Labour scraped through, they'd fall right in the crosshairs of Brexit, get blamed for all the problems and be booted out in short order.

Labour's best bet is after this Brexit mess is done and dusted. Whoever is governing when it either fully collapses or Britain officially exit, is going to be hosed.
 




We currently have a Tory government, so a GE is the first thing we need.

Now granted, it's a Tory government with no majority, unable to get almost any business done, and totally consumed by Brexit, but it's still a Tory government.

A GE is the only way forward for the country, leaving the Tories in power is no solution to anything.
I hate the Tories as much as anyone here but I have doubts on Labour winning enough seats to form a government right now so we may end up back square 1 and wasted another month. I want to see the Tories fall on their Brexit sword, then we can have a GE.


The Conservatives are absolute cancer on the country and have been almost solely responsible for the way things have gotten worse, aside from the Lib Dems' pathetic attempt at being clever, the Tories have needlessly hacked away at society and the economy for purely ideological reasons.

The Labour party, and any other opposition MP, lending a hand to fix the Tories mess wouldn't just be political suicide but it would shore up these bastards for perhaps another government.

Boot them out and fuck them off for generations, preferably forever if enough of those Tory wankers just die off.
The Tories are wankers the shit they have done in government has had a massive effect on my life and I’ll never vote for them in my life but before they do collapse I want to see them all fall on the Brexit monster they have created, then a GE.

We’ll see what happens next week. I may think the timing is wrong but a GE is inevitable this year.

Edit:
Holy shit! 433 MP’s are against her deal megabomba
 
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Oct 27, 2017
566
Not super on topic but sand is not the best comparison, since Fun fact they do in fact buy sand from other countries, Saudi Arabia buys sand all the way from Australia, marine sand which is different from the sand found in the deserts is actually a dwindling resource, especially with developing economies building like crazy given that marine sand is by far the primary material for concrete.
No more experts please. Only Brexit now.
 
Dec 5, 2018
620
You need a new government ASAP. An election right now wouldn't give you that. Even if Labour scraped through, they'd fall right in the crosshairs of Brexit, get blamed for all the problems and be booted out in short order.

Labour's best bet is after this Brexit mess is done and dusted. Whoever is governing when it either fully collapses or Britain officially exit, is going to be hosed.
The Brexit mess won't be sorted for like 10+ years. I don't see it as an argument for Labour to avoid getting into power.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,881
We need a legally binding remain/May's deal referendum. I think that could get a majority in parliament as it gives a lot of politicians a way out.

Labour need to accept there is no time for a GE.
And what happens if May's deal wins? I know the idea of a second ref is tempting because people assume remain will win and we can move on but I would feel better if it was remain v a Labour deal that isn't as stupid.
 

plagiarize

Yearning to breathe free
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,150
Cape Cod, MA
The Brexit mess won't be sorted for like 10+ years. I don't see it as an argument for Labour to avoid getting into power.
The fallout won't last 10+ years, but Article 50 will either have been withdrawn, the UK will have crashed out, or a deal will have been agreed on long before then.

Labour getting into power, say, tomorrow, puts them squarely in the crosshairs for the blame for anything and everything that's going to go wrong. If you want them in control for most of the next ten years, now is a terrible time to take power.
 
Oct 25, 2017
878
And what happens if May's deal wins? I know the idea of a second ref is tempting because people assume remain will win and we can move on but I would feel better if it was remain v a Labour deal that isn't as stupid.
There isn’t a better deal. That’s what makes Labour current stance so frustrating. They and the leadership know that there are four options we have in front of us:

Hard brexit
Mays deal
Norway
Remain

With Norway not even being possible depending on the views of other countries. May’s deal is the best that can be obtained given the restrictions we have placed on ourselves *and the restrictions that Corbyn has agreed on*. Things like freedom of movement. Levels of state aid to industry.

We will be in exactly the same boat, looking at the same basic deal, with Corbyn as leader unless there is a fundamental shift in labour’s policy. I’d welcome that but I see no signs of it.
 
Aug 22, 2018
451
The focus on getting a general election is Corbyn's shield against having to do anything about Brexit.

Though repeatedly calling for a GE this close to the Brexit deadline is making him come across a bit power-hungry.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,892
I think they need to revoke article 50 and come at this with a factual national and public interest approach that can delve deep into what the EU does for us and what it let's us achieve worldwide, it would be an education as well as common sense to lead us out of this mess. Facts need to show the way and no ticking clock either. We need to take a step back and have a honest frank discussion about our EU membership without an axe hanging over us. This would be for everyone not just leave or remain. It should go hand in hand with UK issues that people feel left behind and what they fear. Open the discussion and lay out the facts and truths. Revoking article 50 needs to be tabled by the leadership as well as initiating a fact based reality check and education of the UK in the EU that parliament and people understand instead of lies, misleading truths and quite frankly what many don't know.
 
Oct 25, 2017
581
Labour winning a GE and going ahead with Brexit would be the worst possible outcome. The left will be ripped apart and Labour will be blamed for all the problems with Brexit. His government would collapse withing a year or two and we'd have Tory governments for decades until the left stopped eating themselves.

Labour deciding to remain would also cause a lot of instability, but it would give the economy a shot in the arm that would probably overcome the shock it suffers from having a socialist PM.

I doubt Labour would win though, even in a coalition. They look much worse in the polls than remain do in a new referendum.
 
Look at what you could've won. Get rid of Corbyn and put this man in charge yesterday. (lammy btw)

I have faced many challenges in the two decades for which I have sat in the House, but Sunday 7 August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, was by far the greatest. Walking on broken glass, past burnt-out cars, homes and businesses, comforting men and women who were still in their pyjamas, I saw the place where I had lived for my whole life turned to ashes.​
Many members of the community were urging me to say that the killing of Mark Duggan by police, which had sparked the riots, justified that rage: that the families made homeless, the burnt-out buses and houses and the looted shops were worth it. They told me I had to say that that wrong was right. It was not easy, but I had to look members of my community in the face, tell them that the violence was a disgrace, and condemn it unequivocally. Why? Because we have a duty to tell our constituents the truth, even when they passionately disagree. We owe them not only our industry but our judgment. We are trusted representatives, not unthinking delegates, so why do many in the House continue to support Brexit when they know that it will wreck jobs, the NHS and our standing in the world?​
This is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of the Brexit debate. Most Members now recognise that in private, but do not say it in public. Brexit is a con, a trick, a swindle, a fraud. It is a deception that will hurt most of the people it promised to help. It is a dangerous fantasy that will make every problem it claims to solve worse. It is a campaign won on false promises and lies. Both Vote Leave and Leave.EU broke the law. Russian interference is beyond reasonable doubt.​
By now, every single campaign promise made in 2016 has come unstuck. Brexit will not enrich our NHS; it will impoverish it. Our trade deal with Donald Trump will see US corporations privatise and dismantle it, one bed at a time. Even the promises on immigration, which has so greatly enriched our country, are a lie. After Brexit, immigration will go up, not down. When we enter into negotiations with countries such as India and China, they will ask for three things—visas, visas and more visas—and they will get them, because we will be weak.​
Then there is the myth about restoring parliamentary sovereignty. The last two years have shown what a joke that is. The Prime Minister has hoarded power like a deluded 21st-century Henry VIII. Impact assessments have been hidden, votes have been resisted and blocked, and simple opponents of Government policies have been bullied and threatened to get into line. Even when we forced a meaningful vote, the Prime Minister cancelled it, certain we would reject her disastrous deal—and oh, we will reject it, because it is a lose-lose compromise that offers no certainty for our future. All that it guarantees is more years of negotiation, headed by the same clowns who guided us into this farce in the first place.​
We are suffering from a crisis of leadership in our hour of need. This country’s greatest moments came when we showed courage, not when we appeased: the courage of Wilberforce to emancipate the slaves in the face of the anger of the British ruling class, the courage of Winston Churchill to declare war on Hitler in the face of the appeasers in his Cabinet and the country, and the courage of Attlee and Bevan to nationalise the health service in the face of the doctors who protested that that was not right. Today, we too must be bold, because the challenges that we face are just as extreme. We must not be afraid to tell the truth to those who disagree.​
Friends on this side of the House tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns: the former miners, the factory workers, those who feel that they have been left behind. I say that we must not patronise them with cowardice. Let us tell them the truth. Let us tell them, “You were sold a lie. Parts of the media used your fears to sell papers and boost viewing figures. Nigel Farage and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) exploited the same prejudice to win votes. Shame on them. Immigrants have not taken your jobs; our schools and colleges failed to give you skills.​
Hospitals are crumbling not because of health tourists, but because of decades of austerity that ground them down to the bone. People cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build, not because Mohammed down the road moved in. Wealth was hoarded in London when it should have been shared across the country.​
Blame us; blame Westminster: do not blame Brussels for our own country’s mistakes. And do not be angry at us for telling you the truth; be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie. As Martin Luther King said long ago:​
“There comes a time when silence is betrayal.”​
So just as I speak plainly to the Government this time around, let me speak to the Opposition about some home truths. There is no left-wing justification for Brexit. Ditching workers’ rights and social protections and ending environmental co-operation is not progressive. This is a project about neoliberal deregulation; it is Thatcherism on steroids, pushed by her modern-day disciples. Leaving the EU will not free us from the injustices of global capitalism; it will make us subordinate to Trump’s US.​
Socialism confined to one country will not work. Whether we like it or not, the world we live in is global. We can fix the rigged system only if we co-operate across border lines. The party of Keir Hardie has always been international. We must not let down our young supporters by failing to stand with them on the biggest issue of our lives.​
If we remain in the EU we can reform it from the top table: share the load of mass migration, address the excesses of the bureaucracy and fix inequalities between creditor and debtor states. We can recharge the economy. We can refuel the NHS. We can build the houses we need after years of hurt. Hope is what we need: remain in the EU; give Britain a second opportunity to decide.​