BREXIT |OT| A minister always pays his debts

Oct 28, 2017
3,077
Because he's more at risk of losing Leave voters than Remain voters and because a second referendum probably wouldn't keep us in the EU anyway. It's honestly not complicated.
It's all fantasy while at the same time his losing his own support who want to remain.

As Tusk pointed out the government and the opposition are both clueless. Corbyn wants to cherry pick from the best parts of being in the EU and that's simply not on.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,546
It's all fantasy while at the same time his losing his own support who want to remain.

As Tusk pointed out the government and the opposition are both clueless. Corbyn wants to cherry pick from the best parts of being in the EU and that's simply not on.
Is he actually losing his own support though? There are a handful of MPs getting their voices out there to save face but there’s not much to actually support any major decrease in his actual support. In terms of voters though? Single issue voters on Brexit unfortunately don’t have a party to vote for outside of Scotland and Labour hasn’t been relevant here in years anyway.

I don’t disagree his proposals are similar unicorn nonsense, but they are at least more easily negotiable than May’s.
 
Jul 4, 2018
19
Is he actually losing his own support though? There are a handful of MPs getting their voices out there to save face but there’s not much to actually support any major decrease in his actual support. In terms of voters though? Single issue voters on Brexit unfortunately don’t have a party to vote for outside of Scotland and Labour hasn’t been relevant here in years anyway.

I don’t disagree his proposals are similar unicorn nonsense, but they are at least more easily negotiable than May’s.
Whether or not a significant number of Labour voters decide to defect a different party because of Corbyn’s approach to Brexit, I think it’s pretty likely that disillusionment with Labour leadership on the most urgent crisis facing the country will hurt enthusiasm and turnout among young voters.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,453
This is nicely done. "I look forward to working with you, however please note what you're going to ask for is out of the question."
One of the few good things about Brexit is that it has provided a fantastic glimpse at how European diplomacy works. A lot of people are going to walk out much wiser.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,489
One of the few good things about Brexit is that it has provided a fantastic glimpse at how European diplomacy works. A lot of people are going to walk out much wiser.
People didnt learn from the Greek fiasco. People wont learn from the British fiasco.

Edit: Seems all the government departments just started looking at all the shit a hard Brexit would affect. OMNISHAMBLES
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,539
Two thoughts here:

- agreed, the BBC should be in a lot of trouble for allowing or at the very least not catching this BS. The fact their QT audience is hand selected makes it even worse.
- regardless of where his script came from, I actually think he had a point about the hypocrisy of the SNP’s criticism of the Brexit plan.
Catch it? They are actively promoting it.

This guy has been on 4 times and got to speak every time.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/aunties-favourite/

This isn't a BBC mistake, it is a deliberate action where the producers court far right wankers to appear on shows. Unfortunately in scotland there are so few they have been caught reusing the same person
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,158
Guys, I want a pony. What are you offering me so I can have a pony? Guys?!

I'm sure the EU is totally ready to give the UK a say over negotiations.
This was me in November.

The opposition then states that while it's simply stupid to have a pony, and the pony being offered isn't real, and is actually a cat in a pony suit, they offer something better instead.

What's better? They won't say unless if you elect them.

While the government state that they are in fact offering a pony, but it isn't a pedigree one and the backbenches want a unicorn.

That's basically Tory Vs Labour at this point
They're still at it. Although now Corbyn has described his pony is also actually now a unicorn.
 
Nov 3, 2017
2,911
Good article on which regions will be hit the most in the event of No Deal (or probably, even Shitty Deal).



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/02/07/world/europe/brexit-impact-on-european-union.html

I was expecting a bigger impact on Italy and Spain on account of agrifoods, but it looks like the biggest damage will be infliced on manufactures.

I'll be keeping that map close by the time actual trade negotiations start.
seems weird that Mecklenburg-West Pomerania is more impacted by Brexit than effing Bavaria.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,796
Yeah that they understand the greater threat.
I wanted to ask a question about this point that this person is making; is there any argument that voting for Tory remainers in a hypothetical situation where doing so would make the UK more likely to remain by disregarding the referendum results or would make a Norway/EU model more likely to be passed in Parliament is better than voting for Labour leavers or Labour leave-sympathizers who would take the UK almost totally out of the EU entirely?

I've seen people say in other contexts that the only thing standing between the Tories and their aspirations to turn the UK into the United States (aside: as an American, I wouldn't wish this upon you or anyone else) is the EU and its regulatory bodies that keep the Tories from doing so.

Is this an accurate way to look at things, first of all, and second of all, is there any argument that damage could be minimized by voting for or otherwise supporting Tory remainers that would keep the UK either inside or closely under the regulatory watch of the EU over Labour members who prefer to leave?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,439
Sheffield, UK
I wanted to ask a question about this point that this person is making; is there any argument that voting for Tory remainers in a hypothetical situation where doing so would make the UK more likely to remain by disregarding the referendum results or would make a Norway/EU model more likely to be passed in Parliament is better than voting for Labour leavers or Labour leave-sympathizers who would take the UK almost totally out of the EU entirely?

I've seen people say in other contexts that the only thing standing between the Tories and their aspirations to turn the UK into the United States (aside: as an American, I wouldn't wish this upon you or anyone else) is the EU and its regulatory bodies that keep the Tories from doing so.

Is this an accurate way to look at things, first of all, and second of all, is there any argument that damage could be minimized by voting for or otherwise supporting Tory remainers that would keep the UK either inside or closely under the regulatory watch of the EU over Labour members who prefer to leave?
It’s hypothetically possible but I can’t think of a real world example of a Tory remainer in a marginal constituency running against a staunch Labour leaver.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,714
It’s hypothetically possible but I can’t think of a real world example of a Tory remainer in a marginal constituency running against a staunch Labour leaver.
Probably because Kate Hoey and Frank Field probably won't be Labour MPs come the next election and Graham Stringer is on thin ice too.
 
Oct 26, 2017
551
Greece

I'd like to extend my most sincere congratulations to the UK for finally achieving Spanish and Italian levels of misgovernment.

This UK government is actually worse then the government that caused the crises in Greece, even the Greek Government at that time managed to speak in a single voice.

From Empire to bankruptcy/not mattering anymore, it happened so many times in history. I guess its time for UK to finally kick the bucket.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,151
Man the BBC is really going downhill fast

BBC bans EU flag at Eurovision event - and provides Union Flags instead
The BBC said it was a safety decision but admitted that alternative flags were being offered when inside the venue.

The spokesperson said: “As a safety precaution we check all personal belongings, including all flags, into studio security while ticket holders are in the studio audience, but do however supply the audience with UK flags once they are inside.”
 
Oct 25, 2017
887
seems weird that Mecklenburg-West Pomerania is more impacted by Brexit than effing Bavaria.
Well, it's not all of Bavaria, just Lower Bavaria. For some reason the NY Times chose to divide Germany along its administrative districts instead of its states, which is quite unusual. Even more so because they're using districts that were integrated into larger ones in 1999.

As for the question, I don't know the specifics, but it could be that Mecklenburg exports more agrarian products to the UK (them being at the Baltic Sea probably helps) than Lower Bavaria. The latter does have a BMW assembly though, so I really don't know why it's apparently unaffected by Brexit.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,714
Nov 3, 2017
2,911
Well, it's not all of Bavaria, just Lower Bavaria. For some reason the NY Times chose to divide Germany along its administrative districts instead of its states, which is quite unusual. Even more so because they're using districts that were integrated into larger ones in 1999.

As for the question, I don't know the specifics, but it could be that Mecklenburg exports more agrarian products to the UK (them being at the Baltic Sea probably helps) than Lower Bavaria. The latter does have a BMW assembly though, so I really don't know why it's apparently unaffected by Brexit.
all-in-all I think the map is bullshit. There is either 10% impact all over germany or no impact like lower bavaria, no increments at all. Industry/exporting hubs like Ruhr, south-west Germany, etc. have the same Brexit impact as Mecklenburg and Schleswig? Lower bavaria, Berlin and lower Saxony nothing? Saxony is like the powerhouse of East Germany. No way are they less impacted than Brandenburg or Anhalt.
Or do they assume that the border regions just sell their products to the nearest country? (the no impact regions are all on the border, lower bavaria to czech and Austria, Lower saxony to Poland and czech, Saarland and lower westphalia to Belgium/France
 
Oct 28, 2017
345
Time for a reminder that the Tories own predictions put a no deal scenario, that we are less than two months from, at around -9% GDP. And that's probably optimistic. But no, carry on how Corbyn is going to Doom us with a GDP drop.
You’ve missed the point the poster was replying to, which is that it would be better to have a Remain but with a Tory PM, than a no-deal with Labour PM.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,714
You’ve missed the point the poster was replying to, which is that it would be better to have a Remain but with a Tory PM, than a no-deal with Labour PM.
You've missed the point that the Tories are the ones who got us in this mess because of a squabble in their party.
 
Oct 28, 2017
345
You've missed the point that the Tories are the ones who got us in this mess because of a squabble in their party.
... I really should put you on ignore. You’re basically trolling at this point.

I replied to someone else, putting the context there, which they didn’t seem aware of. Why are you trying to use circular logic to try and argue that context?

I don’t think a single poster has argued that we weren’t in this mess because of the Tories in the first place. But that isn’t the point the initial poster was making, is it? I have a feeling you already know that though.

Question - Would Remain with Tory MP be better than a No Deal Brexit with Labour MP?

Answer - Yes. As 10% GDP drop, would be catastrophic and tie the hands of any leader, no matter how much they’d want to change things. Remember spending cuts during a 2-3% drop during the last recession and the pain and misery that caused. The prospect of that happening with 3x the drop? And for a much longer period? How anyone can possibly believe the impact would be less than what we’ve already had is beyond me.

But again, you’re aware of the context, the question, and the fact this is pretty much an entirely fantasy scenario, as neither of these outcomes are possible. Yet you’ll come back with “But Labour won’t No Deal” and carry on being entirely disingenuous, by acting as if anyone was arguing that in the first place.

Whenever someone posits Tory remain vs Labour leave, God kills a kitten.
God kills 10 kittens when someone pops into a thread without even seeking context. Don’t kill the kittens!
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,714
... I really should put you on ignore. You’re basically trolling at this point.

I replied to someone else, putting the context there, which they didn’t seem aware of. Why are you trying to use circular logic to try and argue that context?

I don’t think a single poster has argued that we weren’t in this mess because of the Tories in the first place. But that isn’t the point the initial poster was making, is it? I have a feeling you already know that though.

Question - Would Remain with Tory MP be better than a No Deal Brexit with Labour MP?

Answer - Yes. As 10% GDP drop, would be catastrophic and tie the hands of any leader, no matter how much they’d want to change things. Remember spending cuts during a 2-3% drop during the last recession and the pain and misery that caused. The prospect of that happening with 3x the drop? And for a much longer period? How anyone can possibly believe the impact would be less than what we’ve already had is beyond me.

But again, you’re aware of the context, the question, and the fact this is pretty much an entirely fantasy scenario, as neither of these outcomes are possible. Yet you’ll come back with “But Labour won’t No Deal” and carry on being entirely disingenuous, by acting as if anyone was arguing that in the first place.



God kills 10 kittens when someone pops into a thread without even seeking context. Don’t kill the kittens!
Do what you want, man, if you can discuss in all seriousness ''Tory Remain vs Labour Leave" then there's no point in talking about this. You fundamentally can't isolate 'Tory Remain' as some kind of option because, once again:

- Tories always put party over country
- Tories don't give two shits about anything other than power
- The Tory Party will never ever be united about Europe, a mythical Tory Remain would condemn the country to even more division and there's no guarantee there wouldn't be more pressure to leave.
- The Tories have proven time and again that the party functions as a massive public debating competition and none of them consider their actions to be anything other than existing within the sphere of Westminster (see the voting record of Woke Soubz vs her public proclamations)
- Tory politicians almost never have any kind of grip on reality

So yeah, it's always worth pointing out that the Conservatives got us in this mess precisely because of those bullet points and therefore any "Tory Remain" MP should have a massive asterisk next to their name. Because ultimately, you know that if Labour put forward a proposal to stay in the EU and all it needed was Tory Remainers to rebel, they never ever would.

Put me on ignore if it makes you feel better.
 
Oct 28, 2017
345
Do what you want, man, if you can discuss in all seriousness ''Tory Remain vs Labour Leave" then there's no point in talking about this. You fundamentally can't isolate 'Tory Remain' as some kind of option because, once again:

- Tories always put party over country
- Tories don't give two shits about anything other than power
- The Tory Party will never ever be united about Europe, a mythical Tory Remain would condemn the country to even more division and there's no guarantee there wouldn't be more pressure to leave.
- The Tories have proven time and again that the party functions as a massive public debating competition and none of them consider their actions to be anything other than existing within the sphere of Westminster (see the voting record of Woke Soubz vs her public proclamations)
- Tory politicians almost never have any kind of grip on reality

So yeah, it's always worth pointing out that the Conservatives got us in this mess precisely because of those bullet points and therefore any "Tory Remain" MP should have a massive asterisk next to their name. Because ultimately, you know that if Labour put forward a proposal to stay in the EU and all it needed was Tory Remainers to rebel, they never ever would.

Put me on ignore if it makes you feel better.
You did -exactly- what I posted you would. The question came up as an isolated, what if? Not an actual argument that it could happen. You know this, you’ve seen the context, it was even pointed out in my post. No one is arguing it could happen, what people are doing are saying “What if?”

You’ve just spent your entire post arguing it couldn’t happen when no one asked that! This is why I can’t decide whether you’ve disengenious or just missing that...
 
Dec 2, 2017
1,381
What's the point of the "what if?", though?

Remain is better than Leave, categorically. It's not a controversial (on here, I guess) or original position, but what's the point of planting your flag in the "I'd take Tory Remain over Labour Leave" hypothetical when it has no realistic chance of happening?

Y'know, other to express some sort of support for the Tories?
 
Nov 3, 2017
2,911
What's the point of the "what if?", though?

Remain is better than Leave, categorically. It's not a controversial (on here, I guess) or original position, but what's the point of planting your flag in the "I'd take Tory Remain over Labour Leave" hypothetical when it has no realistic chance of happening?

Y'know, other to express some sort of support for the Tories?
so what, supporting Labour even if they don't want to stop Brexit, means you are a Leaver with this kind of narrative.
 
Dec 2, 2017
1,381
so what, supporting Labour even if they don't want to stop Brexit, means you are a Leaver with this kind of narrative.
It's just a dumb hypothetical, is all I'm saying. It's not worth planting a flag in as if it were a realistic position.

It's effectively saying "I'd support the Tories if they reversed their position on a national crisis they caused to save their party, in which the worst possible outcomes may be inflicted upon us because of their PM's red lines also to save the party" and also "fuck Labour for being compromised by a national division that doesn't exist on traditional party lines".

It's pitting Labour's unfortunate but very real dilemma over Brexit, against some fantasy version of the Tory party that doesn't exist. It is a child's view of Brexit. Black and white thinking.