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BREXIT |OT| A minister always pays his debts

Oct 28, 2017
2,768
I'm all for not putting all the blame, all the time on voters, but at some point you need to take ownership of your shit.

Plenty of people voted leave because of low information, false promises and prejudice. We all make mistakes and have voted against our own interests because of those or similar reasons. But supporting Brexit at this stage, specially No Deal, takes some will.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,275
I'd be more willing to accept the "people were misled and it's not their fault" line if I hadn't just spent the last two years being aggressively told "I know what I voted for!". They know what they voted for.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,559
It's funny the amount of people talking about how all of these companies have other reasons for leaving / going out of business. Of course they fucking do, that's entirely the point.

Brexit doesn't kill a company that's operating at massive margins (at least until no-deal), it kills the ones that are barely profitable. The ones where it only takes something small to go wrong somewhere in the chain for things to start to fail catastrophically.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,616
I find it amazing how only something like 36% of people aged 18-24 voted in the referendum. Younger people are going to be fucked harder than anybody by Brexit but they did nothing to stop it from happening. I wonder if they will still be apathetic when the UK's economy starts crumbling around them?
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,768
You've got to think Toyota is on shaky ground as well
And concern, a lot, about what Nissan may do after kicking out Ghosn and trying to do something about setting a new course.

The UK is far from being a monoculture economy, but Brexit coupled with the EU-Japan trade deal could turn beyond ugly for the industry. And I think it's pretty wild that nobody seemingly noticed the combination of both factors.

I'm a rube on the internet, but there are people charged with doing that kind of analysis.
 
Oct 27, 2017
598
Ah geez, that Guardian liveblog thing is a harsh read.
Having confirmed that its Swindon plant is to close, Honda now appears to be saying that the number of job losses could reach 7,000, double what was expected.

That’s because it is consulting with subsidiaries and partners in the supply chain serving the Swindon plant, meaning a further 3,500 jobs could go.
How blyatyful.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,467
I find it amazing how only something like 36% of people aged 18-24 voted in the referendum. Younger people are going to be fucked harder than anybody by Brexit but they did nothing to stop it from happening. I wonder if they will still be apathetic when the UK's economy starts crumbling around them?
I'm pretty sure that statistic was debunked, though not before it was used to dismiss young people's concerns about what in the flying fuck the country was doing to itself.
 
Feb 1, 2019
30
I'm all for not putting all the blame, all the time on voters, but at some point you need to take ownership of your shit.

Plenty of people voted leave because of low information, false promises and prejudice. We all make mistakes and have voted against our own interests because of those or similar reasons. But supporting Brexit at this stage, specially No Deal, takes some will.
I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,425
I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
I respect you for that. Honestly. I just wish there were a lot more of you.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,665
I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
In all fairness, it's a bit bloody late for all that now isn't it?

Even if you do manage to change peoples minds, Brexit is happening, and it's those who voted for it, for whatever reasons, fault.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,768
I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
Full respect for that.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,498
Manchester, UK
I'm all for not putting all the blame, all the time on voters, but at some point you need to take ownership of your shit.

Plenty of people voted leave because of low information, false promises and prejudice. We all make mistakes and have voted against our own interests because of those or similar reasons. But supporting Brexit at this stage, specially No Deal, takes some will.
I broadly agree, but in things like Austerity or support for raising Tuition fees. But with the EU referendum, the information was there, and was being pushed very heavily by the government (and opposition) at the time. This wasn't a case of "low information", the information was there and readily available, but people chose not to believe it, despite all the debunking of the Leave campaigns promises/lies


I have taken ownership, that's why i have been to parliament to tell them minds have changed, why i've written an article explaining my reasons for voting how i did and why i changed my mind, why i've been on the front page of my local paper 2 months ago saying about why i want it stopped and put myself out there in the face of being abused on twitter and facebook for daring to say i voted leave and changed my mind.

I can't do much more than that. I am fighting this just as much if not more than people who voted remain and the sad thing is i get quite a lot of toxic comments from remain voters. If people want this stopped, remainers need to embrace people like me and propel our voices to show people that minds can and do change and let people like me talk to other leave voters to change their minds too.
Doing this is a good and commendable thing, but that doesn't change the fact that Leave voters aren't blameless here. It isn't all on the MP's (or media) who lied about Leave being a good idea
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,709
Doing this is a good and commendable thing, but that doesn't change the fact that Leave voters aren't blameless here. It isn't all on the MP's (or media) who lied about Leave being a good idea

It is significantly their fault if they were preying on and manipulating people's fears
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,616
I'm pretty sure that statistic was debunked, though not before it was used to dismiss young people's concerns about what in the flying fuck the country was doing to itself.
There are conflicting reports. Some have it at 64% for 18 to 24 year olds which isn't great but I guess it isn't insanely low for a non-mandatory vote.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
I broadly agree, but in things like Austerity or support for raising Tuition fees. But with the EU referendum, the information was there, and was being pushed very heavily by the government (and opposition) at the time. This wasn't a case of "low information", the information was there and readily available, but people chose not to believe it, despite all the debunking of the Leave campaigns promises/lies
I mean when people cite lack of information they generally mean it in a broader sense than that. The majority of the people of our country is just not knowledgeable enough to make a well informed decision of whether we should leave or stay in the EU. People don't get taught much at all about the EU, what it is, what it does, how it works and so on. Sure you can argue people should maybe learn themselves, but to be honest, we live in a representative democracy system where we vote for people to know that kind of stuff - in that sense the referendum should have never been put to the people. All people see is what they read in the news and what was said in the referendum. Now before the referendum, the EU was basically used as a scapegoat in our media for so bloody long for so many issues. Is it any wonder when it came to the referendum a lot of people then questioned why we needed the EU and started believing the Leave lies?

Like I'm not going to defend the people who still think leaving is a good idea so much so that they actually want a no deal, they're either too rich to care, delusional or too proud to admit they're wrong. However, I think it is very easy to see how some people would have been duped into thinking it was a good idea during the referendum due to how awful our media largely is which is where people would have gotten most of their information from.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,498
Manchester, UK
It is significantly their fault if they were preying on and manipulating people's fears
There were still significant sections of the media and MP's telling people that the Leave campaign was wrong, and debunking the stuff they were saying.

Its not like we are living in some totalitarian state where people are brainwashed from birth with misinformation - the information was all there, and being pushed by both the government and the opposition - and yet people chose to ignore it. They have to take some responsibility for that

I mean when people cite lack of information they generally mean it in a broader sense than that. The majority of the people of our country is just not knowledgeable enough to make a well informed decision of whether we should leave or stay in the EU. People don't get taught much at all about the EU, what it is, what it does, how it works and so on. Sure you can argue people should maybe learn themselves, but to be honest, we live in a representative democracy system where we vote for people to know that kind of stuff - in that sense the referendum should have never been put to the people. All people see is what they read in the news and what was said in the referendum. Now before the referendum, the EU was basically used as a scapegoat in our media for so bloody long for so many issues. Is it any wonder when it came to the referendum a lot of people then questioned why we needed the EU and started believing the Leave lies?

Like I'm not going to defend the people who still think leaving is a good idea so much so that they actually want a no deal, they're either too rich to care, delusional or too proud to admit they're wrong. However, I think it is very easy to see how some people would have been duped into thinking it was a good idea during the referendum due to how awful our media largely is which is where people would have gotten most of their information from.
I don't disagree with any of this - but people were still given a choice and made the wrong (and hugely damaging) one. They still take some of the blame.
 
Nov 4, 2017
232
I remember the referendum campaign well and pretty much every single issue that has blown up in the last two years (trading, customs, Ireland and the lot) was touched upon, maybe not in the forensic detail we do know, but they were most definitely present.

The problem is people heard what they wanted to hear and their ears were more attuned to the "taking back control" and anti-immigrant rhetoric. Saying they were not informed back then is totally disingenuous.
 
Feb 1, 2019
30
There were still significant sections of the media and MP's telling people that the Leave campaign was wrong, and debunking the stuff they were saying.

Its not like we are living in some totalitarian state where people are brainwashed from birth with misinformation - the information was all there, and being pushed by both the government and the opposition - and yet people chose to ignore it. They have to take some responsibility for that



I don't disagree with any of this - but people were still given a choice and made the wrong (and hugely damaging) one. They still take some of the blame.
None of us in the @remainernow community (ex leavers) are absolving ourselves of the blame. But equally, our choices are based on information we are given by people that we expect to know more than us.

In my case, i grew up in a xenophobic and anti eu household and the poison fed to me from a very young age. Now the reason this poison existed in the first place lays squarely at the door of the media and politicians peddling this crap over decades.

Yes i could have made a better choice but at the time i was being told in simplistic terms how easy it would be. I didn't understand complex trade issues or that the WTO even existed along with many other issues i now know about.

This issue was simply way way too massive for the average joe to even begin to comprehend, and even now with myself knowing shitloads about all areas to do with brexit, i'm still nowhere near an expert in anything so the average person certainly won't be either.

They should just revoke A50 and be done with it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
I remember the referendum campaign well and pretty much every single issue that has blown up in the last two years (trading, customs, Ireland and the lot) was touched upon, maybe not in the forensic detail we do know, but they were most definitely present.

The problem is people heard what they wanted to hear and their ears were more attuned to the "taking back control" and anti-immigrant rhetoric. Saying they were not informed back then is totally disingenuous.
Of course, because that's what they've been hearing for the past 10 odd years from our media and politicians.

Who are they going to believe, something echoed every month for the past however many years versus stuff said briefly during a referendum campaign?

You're the one being disingenuous because you're failing to realise that the perception issue against the EU in the UK goes far deeper than just what happened during the referendum. The politicians and the media share a good proportion of the blame(not all, I'm not trying to suggest the voters are faultless) because they spent so much time using Europe as a scapegoat for employment issues, issues on legislation and so on instead of owning those issues as failures(or in some cases choices, when they didn't want to admit the truth) of their own government.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,498
Manchester, UK
None of us in the @remainernow community (ex leavers) are absolving ourselves of the blame. But equally, our choices are based on information we are given by people that we expect to know more than us.

In my case, i grew up in a xenophobic and anti eu household and the poison fed to me from a very young age. Now the reason this poison existed in the first place lays squarely at the door of the media and politicians peddling this crap over decades.

Yes i could have made a better choice but at the time i was being told in simplistic terms how easy it would be. I didn't understand complex trade issues or that the WTO even existed along with many other issues i now know about.

This issue was simply way way too massive for the average joe to even begin to comprehend, and even now with myself knowing shitloads about all areas to do with brexit, i'm still nowhere near an expert in anything so the average person certainly won't be either.

They should just revoke A50 and be done with it.
This entire discussion is predicated on the below post, where you said voters at the time are not to blame

And yeah, I understand that there are plenty of reasons why people were misled into voting Leave, I just don't think they are strong enough for Leave voters not to take more blame here

Yep, and i was one of those leave voters in Swindon. I'm trying my best to convince people that changing their mind is fine but people are just blinkered. People even today arguing the toss and now i'm being sent abuse on facebook for it.

The MP's still lying to us are to blame not the people at the time of voting but anyone still advocating for leave is now just deluded in my opinion. Will hurt this town pretty badly.
 
Nov 4, 2017
232
You're the one being disingenuous because you're failing to realise that the perception issue against the EU in the UK goes far deeper than just what happened during the referendum. The politicians and the media share a good proportion of the blame(not all, I'm not trying to suggest the voters are faultless) because they spent so much time using Europe as a scapegoat for employment issues, issues on legislation and so on instead of owning those issues as failures(or in some cases choices, when they didn't want to admit the truth) of their own government.
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My gripe is with all these people coming out now saying they regret their vote because they weren't properly informed during the referendum. They were, they just chose to listen to what they liked best (the unicorn, the fake sovereignty and the immigration threats).
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My gripe is with all these people coming out now saying they regret their vote because they weren't properly informed during the referendum. They were, they just chose to listen to what they liked best (the unicorn, the fake sovereignty and the immigration threats).
I mean it has everything to do with what you're saying. They weren't properly informed in the years prior to the referendum so their opinions of the EU were skewed. Consequently, I dunno if it's as much they liked it best as much as it's what's been drilled into them for the past 10 years by the Tories. It doesn't completely excuse it or make them faultless, but at the same time it certainly explains it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,041
Let's not forget how effective (and not entirely above board) the Leave campaign was in targeting those people who wouldn't otherwise have consumed much in the way of political news.
 

plagiarize

Yearning to breathe free
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,216
Cape Cod, MA
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My gripe is with all these people coming out now saying they regret their vote because they weren't properly informed during the referendum. They were, they just chose to listen to what they liked best (the unicorn, the fake sovereignty and the immigration threats).
This may be splitting hairs somewhat, but if I'm being told contradictory things, and one of them is true, I think it's unfair to say I've been properly informed, because I got the real information mixed in with lots of disinformation.

Just because some of us could tell the lies from the truth, doesn't make it untrue that people were intentionally (and illegally to be honest) misinformed.

Naturally, everyone who voted leave has some culpability for whatever ends up happening as a result of that vote, whether it's what they wanted to happen, whether their vote was based on lies, etc.

Let's not absolve the remain campaign for poor messaging etc, too.

If anything it's worrying that we aren't seeing more people admit they fell for misinformation. People who now regret their vote, while again still culpable for what happens, are probably people we should be showing some sympathy and understanding to, in my opinion. Because while partly to blame they are at least partly victims also.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,920
That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My gripe is with all these people coming out now saying they regret their vote because they weren't properly informed during the referendum. They were, they just chose to listen to what they liked best (the unicorn, the fake sovereignty and the immigration threats).
I don't remember the coverage to be balanced at all, even in 2016. It's easy to laugh about unicorns and how dumb one has to be to believe in them. It's like mass propaganda, from the ones in the 1930s to Cambridge Analytica, are nothing more than a Pepsi commercial and easy to brush off if you try hard enough.
When the overwhelming majority of the newspapers available everywhere you look around and even the BBC's "neutral" coverage were overwhelmingly anti-Europe, I find it unfair to expect people to simply go on their mobile phone and read international treaties by themselves. That's the mass media's job, they are the ones who failed the nation and the people they were meant to keep informed.

Moreover, I don't really see the point of pointing the fingers at the Leave voters who are going to end up even more destitute (or, without hyperbole and it's maddening to say so, dead) because of their vote. They're going to be punished, along with the rest of us. What good does it do to tell them how dumb they are and how it's all their fault? Is it supposed to make us feel better about ourselves, how we're so smart and educated because we knew the unicorns were lies? We're all getting crushed by this mess too, but at least we Cassandras knew it was coming and it's supposed to make it sting less?

You know who's not getting punished? Murdoch and all the writers/TV presenters who got us into this mess. If the 4th power was properly working in this country, the last 10 years would have been entirely different. Buffoons would not have been elected where they've been. Their heads should be on spikes before even May's and Cameron's and Boris's and Mogg's.

Unrelated.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,585

When you consider that ~60 Tory MPs recently voted against the government to make a point this probably isn't what they hoped for.

May will not budge off her deal for anyone. We are rapidly approaching decision time because there's nothing else.
 
Oct 28, 2017
207
I would buy the argument for "the poor Leave voters who got deceived" if the majority of them were still not insisting on their original vote, many of them clamouring for No Deal even. These are all adults and at some point individual responsibility kicks in. The truth of the matter is that they haven't changed their mind because no rational argument will cure their xenophobia and superiority complex over the rest of Europe.
 
Feb 1, 2019
30
I would buy the argument for "the poor Leave voters who got deceived" if the majority of them were still not insisting on their original vote, many of them clamouring for No Deal even. These are all adults and at some point individual responsibility kicks in. The truth of the matter is that they haven't changed their mind because no rational argument will cure their xenophobia and superiority complex over the rest of Europe.
And this i entirely agree with. People that after all this time still advocate leaving, especially with no deal are idiotic and completely brainwashed. But i would hope people could see the distinction between myself who saw the light ages ago and someone spouting "letsgoWTO!!" like an indoctrinated ISIS convert.
 

Jom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,455
None of us in the @remainernow community (ex leavers) are absolving ourselves of the blame. But equally, our choices are based on information we are given by people that we expect to know more than us.

In my case, i grew up in a xenophobic and anti eu household and the poison fed to me from a very young age. Now the reason this poison existed in the first place lays squarely at the door of the media and politicians peddling this crap over decades.

Yes i could have made a better choice but at the time i was being told in simplistic terms how easy it would be. I didn't understand complex trade issues or that the WTO even existed along with many other issues i now know about.

This issue was simply way way too massive for the average joe to even begin to comprehend, and even now with myself knowing shitloads about all areas to do with brexit, i'm still nowhere near an expert in anything so the average person certainly won't be either.

They should just revoke A50 and be done with it.
I think it's admirable that you have realized that the Leave vote was wrong, but I just have a small issue with the bolded because I see it back in the US as well, with people claiming that racism/xenophobia was fed to them at home and that media is at fault. Anti-EU sentiments being the result of media and politicians I can totally understand, but racism and xenophobia isn't learned through the media or politicians. That's simply a morality issue. People don't watch conservative media and "learn" to hate minorities, they hate minorities and then watch conservative media that supports, inflames, and justifies that hatred.

People need to accept if their family or even themselves have racist and xenophobic beliefs and confront them, instead of blaming them on the amorphous media and politicians as a way to skirt blame and responsibility. Without that there's not really going to be change regarding these kinds of beliefs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
759
Morality is 100% learned behaviour. The reason you end up having pockets of terrible people is exactly because people pick up that behaviour from their families and peers. They don't know any better.
 

Jom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,455
Morality is 100% learned behaviour. The reason you end up having pockets of terrible people is exactly because people pick up that behaviour from their families and peers. They don't know any better.
I grew up with grandparents who were racist and multiple uncles who were racist, who had no compunction to make racist statements right in front of me. I didn't just adopt those beliefs. I knew exactly when statements being made were racist and pointed them out as that. Plenty of people do this. Plenty of people know better.

Again, people need to stop rejecting responsibility. If someone tells you a certain type of people is always this way or just straight out bad in some way, and you just fall into line with that, that's on you as much as it is the person saying it.
 
Feb 1, 2019
30
I grew up with grandparents who were racist and multiple uncles who were racist, who had no compunction to make racist statements right in front of me. I didn't just adopt those beliefs. I knew exactly when statements being made were racist and pointed them out as that. Plenty of people do this. Plenty of people know better.

Again, people need to stop rejecting responsibility. If someone tells you a certain type of people is always this way or just straight out bad in some way, and you just fall into line with that, that's on you as much as it is the person saying it.
I admit I had xenophobic tendencies which has been learned from the environment I grew up in. It was normal. But I must say, it's like I've had an epiphany and can see how stupid being irrationally scared of the other is. It's like a built in fear or excuse you fall back on just to deflect blame or to make yourself feel superior and when you realise you are afflicted with it it's quite eye opening. In fact it's damn pathetic.
 

Murderopolis

Using an alt account to circumvent a ban
Member
Jan 12, 2019
105
Leave was a racist bigoted campaign lead by racist bigots. That is a fact. Everyone, absolutely fucking everyone in this country knew this. Everyone knows what Nigel and Boris are about, its not a secret. Those two haven't shut up for 1 minute of their life.

I don't buy they were mislead. I mean, obviously on many things they were. But the core of what leave was about, was not a secret. The media is openly racist, bigoted, and sensational. No one forces you to read the Daily Mail or the Sun. You don't get to bury your head in hate papers than blame them when you lose your jobs.

If you voted leave, this is on you. You sided with an openly ugly campaign of hatred and racism. Not saying this to anyone in this thread. Britain is a conservative, deprived, working class nation. And we are also a bigoted racist nation, that is proudly ignorant. Brexit is 100% a by product of the backwards culture of the country.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
As someone who actually campaigned in the referendum, I can attest to leave voters being by and large one or a mix of: thick, racist, uneducated, pig headed, willfully ignorant and in a tiny sliver of cases hopelessly naive.

However I do not want anyone to suffer brexit. Even in its most timid form it is going to be the ruin of many a livelihood, and it will affect the children and grandchildren of voters more than those who cast the vote.

The ones who really deserve to suffer are those who went from remain to brexit because it became politically convenient to do so.
 
Oct 25, 2017
650
Thinking about how much blame should be assigned to voters for a decision like Brexit has me quickly devolving into thought spirals about the nature of free will. However, from a pragmatic perspective, the environments within which we exist massively affect the kind of persons we are. It's why the welfare state exists.

A majority people voted leave at the previous referendum, but blaming voters isn't going to change that or make it any easier to stop the catastrophe that is Brexit. The truth is, sources of information that they trusted did lie to them on an unbelievable level. I also think David Cameron is massively to blame, because it meant that when people did start saying how bad Brexit would be, a natural response would be surely if it's that bad, it wouldn't have been put up to a vote. I voted remain, but I have very limited knowledge about the complex interactions and inter-dependencies of EU member states, at the time even less so. I thought that Brexit was overall worse than Remain, but never conceived it could possibly be this bad because I never would have imagined that such a thing would have been put to a referendum if that was the case. Furthermore, 'Project Fear' at the time was just 'Project Understatement', because even Remainers massively underestimated how important the UKs relationship to the EU was.

The one place where 'blame' is useful is when it comes to identifying what got us into this mess, reflecting on that, and then digging ourselves out of it. MPs who actively lied need to be held accountable for a start.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,698
Also on the food thing.

Will Britain by applying a tarriff to Irish Beef? Doesn't that require a hard border? Or are products arriving from Ireland not subject to these tarriffs?

Another incoherent Brexit policy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,212
Thinking about how much blame should be assigned to voters for a decision like Brexit has me quickly devolving into thought spirals about the nature of free will. However, from a pragmatic perspective, the environments within which we exist massively affect the kind of persons we are. It's why the welfare state exists.

A majority people voted leave at the previous referendum, but blaming voters isn't going to change that or make it any easier to stop the catastrophe that is Brexit. The truth is, sources of information that they trusted did lie to them on an unbelievable level. I also think David Cameron is massively to blame, because it meant that when people did start saying how bad Brexit would be, a natural response would be surely if it's that bad, it wouldn't have been put up to a vote. I voted remain, but I have very limited knowledge about the complex interactions and inter-dependencies of EU member states, at the time even less so. I thought that Brexit was overall worse than Remain, but never conceived it could possibly be this bad because I never would have imagined that such a thing would have been put to a referendum if that was the case. Furthermore, 'Project Fear' at the time was just 'Project Understatement', because even Remainers massively underestimated how important the UKs relationship to the EU was.

The one place where 'blame' is useful is when it comes to identifying what got us into this mess, reflecting on that, and then digging ourselves out of it. MPs who actively lied need to be held accountable for a start.
If I’m honest, the reason I voted remain was because when I weighed up the two options I felt like me and my family would be better off in the EU. It was a very selfish vote on my part, and I had very little reason to consider the wider consequences of there being a vote in the first place.