Yeah, its an absolute embarassment. Its been rebuilt in the exact same way twice in the past when it was destroyed, all because the idiots at those times wanted to keep that adversarial atmosphere.
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BREXIT |OT| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Thread starter theaface
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Yeah, its an absolute embarassment. Its been rebuilt in the exact same way twice in the past when it was destroyed, all because the idiots at those times wanted to keep that adversarial atmosphere.
The Victorian bits are horrible bar the odd thing by Pugin inside the building, i wouldn't be against flattening the faux medieval shite.
You're not wrong...
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1....481.0j4......1....1..gws-wiz-img.7lJz3fCElxw
Few are not like the others.
Changing the layout wouldn't change the culture a bit. Look at some of the contentiousness in Australia right now in a theatre style layout. Look at the videos of literal fistfights in parliaments.
The building isn't the problem.
The building isn't the problem.
Labour calling a debate with maybe a safe "this sucks amirite" motion at the end is toothless, but not surprising:
If he presents a Confidence motion and loses, he has to then explain to his membership and voters what he intends to do next, and Corbyn et al treat jumping into supporting a referendum as like jumping into a volcano.
So he is sort of hamstrung from actually threatening a Confidence vote despite that being a somewhat logical place to go as losing it puts him in what would appear to be a very bad situation.
My view is that he won't call a Confidence vote. Someone else will, or the government will go bang some other way.
If he presents a Confidence motion and loses, he has to then explain to his membership and voters what he intends to do next, and Corbyn et al treat jumping into supporting a referendum as like jumping into a volcano.
So he is sort of hamstrung from actually threatening a Confidence vote despite that being a somewhat logical place to go as losing it puts him in what would appear to be a very bad situation.
My view is that he won't call a Confidence vote. Someone else will, or the government will go bang some other way.
While I understand the sentiment, things like the Mace last because they become symbolic institutions of Parliament, and they come under question when the institutions underpinning a democracy start to become unstuck. A large part of the reason we've had a functioning democracy for a long time is, in a very strange way, down to things like the Mace. When you ignore things like the Mace, Caesarism rises.
If there's a vote on the 21st Jan, and if the vote means that TM's deal is overwhelmingly defeated, then I see JC calling for a vote of no confidence. The closer we get to 29th March without a vote on the deal, the less likely a vote of no confidence is, imo. I think tomorrow's emergency debate could be a good "toe in the water" moment.
Considering the size of the parliament, if you were to expand the room, and rely on microphones for amplification of voice, you'd end up with less of this dumb shouty shit. Seriously, a room can make a lot of difference. The benches sit 3 metres across from each other. "Two swords length", or so the saying goes.
Everything about that room is built to encourage fighting, verbal or otherwise. You just know the limp-wrists in the seats wouldn't dare throw a punch though. Except maybe John Prescott in the past.
When May finally makes a decision and loses a section of the party over it is when a vote might work, it's annoying that she could put it off to February.
Mps's in the House this afternoon, were positing that she could put it off until 28th March, if she had her way. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but certainly she's already been in contempt of Parliament, so anything's possible.
They want a general election first and foremost, so of course calling a confidence vote at a time when they are likely to lose it is a very bad situation for them - it fucks their chance of getting what they want.
Chuka isn't asking for a confidence vote now because he thinks it'll win, it's because he knows it'll lose which takes a general election off the table.
She has never particularly cared, and it is clearly to her personal advantage to delay the vote as much as possible, right now if the vote happens she loses and there is likely no way to recover from that, if she delays something might happen to change that, it is unlikely but still better than certain defeat for her.
Don't see the Tory party opposing this too much either, since if they lose the vote on the deal, a vote of no confidence is potentially not too far behind, and if they lose that vote it means they might very well lose the election, and if they are out of power it is to their interest to delay that, the more they delay the more unlikely a second referendum is due to sheer time constraints, without a second referendum any party that withdraws article 50 is giving a bunch of ammunition to the opposition parties, and the Tory party is uniquely situated to benefit from that.
On the other hand if they don't lose the vote of no confidence they will still have time to implement a second referendum and dump that decision on the "will of the people", giving them cover to go against brexiters.
Corbyn has been quite clear. If the government loses a confidence vote he wants a general election. How much more plainly can he put it?
The fact is there aren't the votes to take down the government until the DUP say so. Until that happens a Confidence Vote is not going to pass.
How is this a plausible excuse for not doing anything meaningful? We can't do anything until the thing that can't happen unless we do something happens? The government is not going to fall without serious outside pressure coming in. It probably won't fall, which means a referendum would need to be called for as soon as it fails. Why can't we have another referendum? Because Corbyn wants Brexit.
A lot of people seem to not be dealing with realities when it comes to what Labour can and can't do just to stick the boot into Corbyn.
I listened to a full hour of PM questions after her announcement this afternoon. All her questions about a second referendum she said along the lines of "we can't have it because it would divide the country".
Yes, because we're all getting along in unity at the moment 😒
Yes, because we're all getting along in unity at the moment 😒
what 👏 is 👏 the 👏 benefit 👏 of 👏 losing 👏 a 👏 confidence 👏 vote
Because he can't do anything meaningful at all? Unless the government don't have the backing of the majority of parliament there isn't a lot the opposition can do effectively.
That is how parliament works.
Something something Russia, something something Putin, something something Milne
I honestly can't tell if they're stupid, or know they're wrong but are happy to look stupid if it means they can get another dig in, like it's some sort of sustaining life force for them.
My support for Corbyn has waned a little over brexit over the months but ffs, some people are just willing to ignore facts and reality on what exactly he can achieve.
He can't get the votes for no confidence so what else can he do but what he has suggested?
While I do think he is a leaver, his actions have still kept them in the game so far. Some will say "but the Tories are the worst they have ever been and labour should be 20 points ahead of he was stronger on remain", ignoring the fact they are still basically where they were at the general election which was the same support as Labour in their biggest under Blair.
People need to realise we are now like America, a country divided between those who vote based on policy and facts, and those who vote on emotion and fear. To suggest labour could/should be higher then any party ever is ridiculous and ignores all facts and history.
He can't get the votes for no confidence so what else can he do but what he has suggested?
While I do think he is a leaver, his actions have still kept them in the game so far. Some will say "but the Tories are the worst they have ever been and labour should be 20 points ahead of he was stronger on remain", ignoring the fact they are still basically where they were at the general election which was the same support as Labour in their biggest under Blair.
People need to realise we are now like America, a country divided between those who vote based on policy and facts, and those who vote on emotion and fear. To suggest labour could/should be higher then any party ever is ridiculous and ignores all facts and history.
Absolutely none of you have addressed the idea of a second referendum beyond cowering away in the corner and pretending it's a doom signal that we're best off avoiding. If Corbyn came out tomorrow for a second referendum, that's where the conversation would be heading. He isn't. Why? Because he doesn't want one. Why doesn't he want one? Because he doesn't want to be in the single market or customs union.
It is basically the same as Liam Fox staying in cabinet, they're whittling a stick while the clock ticks down. We don't have time. It's revoke article 50 and second referendum, or May's deal/no deal. You will wake up and find us hard brexited and wonder how it happened.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...corbyn-and-no-confidence-motions-really-about
Now personally I don't really care about the no confidence vote because I don't think he can win one that would bring an election anyway, I want a second referendum (a third one ffs). I do not want us to leave the EU for the sake of keeping Jeremy happy.
It is basically the same as Liam Fox staying in cabinet, they're whittling a stick while the clock ticks down. We don't have time. It's revoke article 50 and second referendum, or May's deal/no deal. You will wake up and find us hard brexited and wonder how it happened.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...corbyn-and-no-confidence-motions-really-about
Now personally I don't really care about the no confidence vote because I don't think he can win one that would bring an election anyway, I want a second referendum (a third one ffs). I do not want us to leave the EU for the sake of keeping Jeremy happy.
Labour is pretty clear in its stance for a second referendum. The opposition cannot introduce legislation in the commons outside very specific circumstances. Either May needs to be compelled to call one or a general election must be called. Labour is pushing for a GE.
I don't know why it's so hard to understand Labour's position. They are the opposition, they aren't in government. The only thing that Corbyn has the power to do, is call for a GE, and it would be stupid to call for one as things stand right now.
Labour have made it clear that they will only even remotely consider calling for a 2nd ref, if there is absolutely no possibility (or no point) of a GE.
Things are so fucking bad right now, in terms of how split the country is, that I don't even know if there's any point in JC calling for a GE after the vote (assuming it's on 21st Jan), unless he's going to (and can) extend A.50. That being on the basis that he wont revoke A.50 as he's stated.
I don't see any way out of the situation that doesn't cause some sort of long lasting political damage. Brexit is like playing fucking hot potatoes, and no one wants to hold it right now.
Labour have made it clear that they will only even remotely consider calling for a 2nd ref, if there is absolutely no possibility (or no point) of a GE.
Things are so fucking bad right now, in terms of how split the country is, that I don't even know if there's any point in JC calling for a GE after the vote (assuming it's on 21st Jan), unless he's going to (and can) extend A.50. That being on the basis that he wont revoke A.50 as he's stated.
I don't see any way out of the situation that doesn't cause some sort of long lasting political damage. Brexit is like playing fucking hot potatoes, and no one wants to hold it right now.
Of course the way around that would be a new manifesto for a new GE.
Any idea what time the emergency debate will start? Do HoCs debates start around 2.30pm like they did today?
All of the polling shows labour constituencies swinging back to remain.
The polling shows that Corbyn can't win an election too.
If he doesn't move for a second referendum we are so unbelievably fucked. This is in his hands, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise. Him saying the words 'we need a referendum to make a decision because parliament can't fulfil brexit' would change everything. But he won't, because he wants brexit.
We are going to end up with
- Tory brexit deluxe
- a new, emboldened, energised, harder right Tory government
- the pro European element of the Labour party left in tatters, ensuring decades of our own infighting on the issue as Corbyn's youth support bends over backwards to facilitate his leaverism
- public trust in labour as a party of government in smithereens for a generation
He's already lost one election, it looks like he's going to lose the next one, and all you're going to get out of the Corbyn project is guaranteed Tory governments and a hard brexit.
Corbyn and David Davis are mates. They went on holiday together. He cannot personally pass a referendum in parliament, but he absolutely could take a majority in the house on the matter and force it. He won't. Because he wants it.
McDonnell is at least a shrewd operator. He knows where the wind is blowing.
So far in this thread not a single person has even attempted to engage with the Milne news. It's pathetic. It is so seriously, massively important that we stop this shit show, right now. I have refrigerated medication that basically keeps me alive, hard brexit is such a massive threat to so many people and we are just whistling in the wind.
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I haven't seen any constituency level polling - link?
I think 21st January is the latest that the vote can be held, but who knows what might actually happen if she tries to cancel it.
Couldn't she tie the vote to a GE in someway "vote me down and I'll call a GE"?
Thanks, I have a feeling she will cancel it again and expect all sorts fireworks. I'm actually starting to fear that no-deal by accident is a possibility due to May's ineptitude and cowardice.
Which sucks for me and many others who rely on drugs coming from the EU.
I'm not super up on my Erskine May, but if it were possible to amend a Motion of No Confidence into the Withdrawal Deal Meaningful Vote, that might be a way to bring things to a head.
I'm pretty sure however that the Tory "rebels" could vote against both the amendment and the deal, as they'd be separate votes. There's no way to force No Confidence into the main motion without it being put there by the Government.
Which actually might be May's way out of this.
If she makes the Deal a Confidence issue, she forces the Tory rebels to choose between conscience and Party, and we all know which way Tories fall on that question.
It's a high risk play, but it's a play.
I'm pretty sure however that the Tory "rebels" could vote against both the amendment and the deal, as they'd be separate votes. There's no way to force No Confidence into the main motion without it being put there by the Government.
Which actually might be May's way out of this.
If she makes the Deal a Confidence issue, she forces the Tory rebels to choose between conscience and Party, and we all know which way Tories fall on that question.
It's a high risk play, but it's a play.
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