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jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I think they need to revoke article 50 and come at this with a factual national and public interest approach that can delve deep into what the EU does for us and what it let's us achieve worldwide, it would be an education as well as common sense to lead us out of this mess. Facts need to show the way and no ticking clock either. We need to take a step back and have a honest frank discussion about our EU membership without an axe hanging over us. This would be for everyone not just leave or remain. It should go hand in hand with UK issues that people feel left behind and what they fear. Open the discussion and lay out the facts and truths. Revoking article 50 needs to be tabled by the leadership as well as initiating a fact based reality check and education of the UK in the EU that parliament and people understand instead of lies, misleading truths and quite frankly what many don't know.
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,950
Labour winning a GE and going ahead with Brexit would be the worst possible outcome. The left will be ripped apart and Labour will be blamed for all the problems with Brexit. His government would collapse withing a year or two and we'd have Tory governments for decades until the left stopped eating themselves.

Labour deciding to remain would also cause a lot of instability, but it would give the economy a shot in the arm that would probably overcome the shock it suffers from having a socialist PM.

I doubt Labour would win though, even in a coalition. They look much worse in the polls than remain do in a new referendum.
 

Deleted member 862

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,646


Don't see how it could get much worse than this tbh but cynicism around anything that isn't just "get on with it" seems to be seeping through in this thread.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I wonder if she will delay it.

Could hold it on the 27th March and then the 3 day amendment if it fails won't count. HAhahaha /tears
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660

May's deal is becoming more and more and more remain lite... still a few days to go wonder what she will do next
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,662
There's no such thing as permanent in politics. Any Labour MP who trusts the Conservatives on this is a simpleton.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Lucille-Winking-animated-gif-arrested-development-31133148-245-245.gif


Yeah, fools. Sure they will get around to it when hard choices need to be made. I don't recall, we have no time for such things, it doesn't work with our new plans.
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
I mean it's not like May has a history of making promises to MPs to get them to vote with her then immediately breaking those promises, right?
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
Look at what you could've won. Get rid of Corbyn and put this man in charge yesterday. (lammy btw)

I have faced many challenges in the two decades for which I have sat in the House, but Sunday 7 August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, was by far the greatest. Walking on broken glass, past burnt-out cars, homes and businesses, comforting men and women who were still in their pyjamas, I saw the place where I had lived for my whole life turned to ashes.​
Many members of the community were urging me to say that the killing of Mark Duggan by police, which had sparked the riots, justified that rage: that the families made homeless, the burnt-out buses and houses and the looted shops were worth it. They told me I had to say that that wrong was right. It was not easy, but I had to look members of my community in the face, tell them that the violence was a disgrace, and condemn it unequivocally. Why? Because we have a duty to tell our constituents the truth, even when they passionately disagree. We owe them not only our industry but our judgment. We are trusted representatives, not unthinking delegates, so why do many in the House continue to support Brexit when they know that it will wreck jobs, the NHS and our standing in the world?​
This is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of the Brexit debate. Most Members now recognise that in private, but do not say it in public. Brexit is a con, a trick, a swindle, a fraud. It is a deception that will hurt most of the people it promised to help. It is a dangerous fantasy that will make every problem it claims to solve worse. It is a campaign won on false promises and lies. Both Vote Leave and Leave.EU broke the law. Russian interference is beyond reasonable doubt.​
By now, every single campaign promise made in 2016 has come unstuck. Brexit will not enrich our NHS; it will impoverish it. Our trade deal with Donald Trump will see US corporations privatise and dismantle it, one bed at a time. Even the promises on immigration, which has so greatly enriched our country, are a lie. After Brexit, immigration will go up, not down. When we enter into negotiations with countries such as India and China, they will ask for three things—visas, visas and more visas—and they will get them, because we will be weak.​
Then there is the myth about restoring parliamentary sovereignty. The last two years have shown what a joke that is. The Prime Minister has hoarded power like a deluded 21st-century Henry VIII. Impact assessments have been hidden, votes have been resisted and blocked, and simple opponents of Government policies have been bullied and threatened to get into line. Even when we forced a meaningful vote, the Prime Minister cancelled it, certain we would reject her disastrous deal—and oh, we will reject it, because it is a lose-lose compromise that offers no certainty for our future. All that it guarantees is more years of negotiation, headed by the same clowns who guided us into this farce in the first place.​
We are suffering from a crisis of leadership in our hour of need. This country's greatest moments came when we showed courage, not when we appeased: the courage of Wilberforce to emancipate the slaves in the face of the anger of the British ruling class, the courage of Winston Churchill to declare war on Hitler in the face of the appeasers in his Cabinet and the country, and the courage of Attlee and Bevan to nationalise the health service in the face of the doctors who protested that that was not right. Today, we too must be bold, because the challenges that we face are just as extreme. We must not be afraid to tell the truth to those who disagree.​
Friends on this side of the House tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns: the former miners, the factory workers, those who feel that they have been left behind. I say that we must not patronise them with cowardice. Let us tell them the truth. Let us tell them, "You were sold a lie. Parts of the media used your fears to sell papers and boost viewing figures. Nigel Farage and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) exploited the same prejudice to win votes. Shame on them. Immigrants have not taken your jobs; our schools and colleges failed to give you skills.​
Hospitals are crumbling not because of health tourists, but because of decades of austerity that ground them down to the bone. People cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build, not because Mohammed down the road moved in. Wealth was hoarded in London when it should have been shared across the country.​
Blame us; blame Westminster: do not blame Brussels for our own country's mistakes. And do not be angry at us for telling you the truth; be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie. As Martin Luther King said long ago:​
"There comes a time when silence is betrayal."​
So just as I speak plainly to the Government this time around, let me speak to the Opposition about some home truths. There is no left-wing justification for Brexit. Ditching workers' rights and social protections and ending environmental co-operation is not progressive. This is a project about neoliberal deregulation; it is Thatcherism on steroids, pushed by her modern-day disciples. Leaving the EU will not free us from the injustices of global capitalism; it will make us subordinate to Trump's US.​
Socialism confined to one country will not work. Whether we like it or not, the world we live in is global. We can fix the rigged system only if we co-operate across border lines. The party of Keir Hardie has always been international. We must not let down our young supporters by failing to stand with them on the biggest issue of our lives.​
If we remain in the EU we can reform it from the top table: share the load of mass migration, address the excesses of the bureaucracy and fix inequalities between creditor and debtor states. We can recharge the economy. We can refuel the NHS. We can build the houses we need after years of hurt. Hope is what we need: remain in the EU; give Britain a second opportunity to decide.​
 

shan780

The Fallen
Nov 2, 2017
2,566
UK
just watched brexit uncivil war on TV. how much of that was true? was any of it exaggerated for dramatic purposes?
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
I don't see the point of discussing Corbyn and his leadership at this stage, we're stuck with what we have. And unfortunately in these fucked up times someone like Lammy could just as easily lose a load of votes.
 

Zutroy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,588
👏👏👏👏👏👏
The woman audience member on QT in the yellow jacket!

P.S think Fiona Bruce is gonna be a good fit for the future.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,881
Lammy with some very eloquently written home truths there. That's the kind of leadership needed not just by government, but by the official opposition too.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
I just noticed the story about Steve Baker producing a blueprint for a tougher negotiation strategy against the EU, it blows my mind that a few weeks before leaving he thinks something like that up.

I suppose it will impress the loons in the Tory party but its kinda embarrassing in the real world.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,347
I don't see the point of discussing Corbyn and his leadership at this stage, we're stuck with what we have. And unfortunately in these fucked up times someone like Lammy could just as easily lose a load of votes.

A: "This is not about my life, or your life, this is about the future of the UK.
B: "There is no point in What if's"
C: "What are you doing?"
A: "Saving this country."
B: "It's not possible."
A: "No... it is necessary.

Labour has to go fully into Remain. They can't make Brexit a success and would either be blamed for it, if they win the GE, or complicit in it, in the eyes of the populace, if they don't back remain in the GE and lose.
Sure, they could lose the GE on a remain campaign but they would have the next decade or two free reign if the Uk is a shitshow after Brexit and they can show themselves as the party who tried to stop it and try to untangle the fuck-up of the tories.
And if they win on a remain campaign, they can revoke Article 50 with the backing of the majority of the UK populace.
 

Cammington

Member
Oct 27, 2017
345
Watching Emily Thornberry on QT trying to defend a Labour version of Brexit was excruciating. The PLP don't want it, the membership don't want it and the voters don't want it.

They need to completely ditch the idea.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
A: "This is not about my life, or your life, this is about the future of the UK.
B: "There is no point in What if's"
C: "What are you doing?"
A: "Saving this country."
B: "It's not possible."
A: "No... it is necessary.

Labour has to go fully into Remain. They can't make Brexit a success and would either be blamed for it, if they win the GE, or complicit in it, in the eyes of the populace, if they don't back remain in the GE and lose.
Sure, they could lose the GE on a remain campaign but they would have the next decade or two free reign if the Uk is a shitshow after Brexit and they can show themselves as the party who tried to stop it and try to untangle the fuck-up of the tories.
And if they win on a remain campaign, they can revoke Article 50 with the backing of the majority of the UK populace.

There's not likely to be a general election until after Brexit, but I wouldn't be against that position, Corbyn is leader which limits the numbers of Tories who will work with Labour and how they will do it, I wanted him to lose the last leadership election but this is what we have.

He isn't going to simply ignore the referendum result so unless someone steps up and actually challenges him I just think people are torturing themselves with what ifs.

I'm going to stick with my original prediction after the referendum, if we do scrape through it will be more by luck and at the very last minute if not in extra time.
 

RellikSK

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,470
Nish Kumar telling how it is on QT.

I like the presenter, more combative than David.
 
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Deleted member 862

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,646
Look at what you could've won. Get rid of Corbyn and put this man in charge yesterday. (lammy btw)
Lammy or Starmer would be great leaders if if came to it. I don't think the policy would change much right now if either were actually in charge though but if it starts to look like an election and these kind of ideas don't make their way to the top then it really will be time to change.
 
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Tangyn

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,280
Such a fantastic speech - almost tempted to send it to my Daily Mail reading, leave voting father and see what he has to say!

Neither of us have talked about Brexit since the vote two years ago when we had a huge row.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,027
I think they need to revoke article 50 and come at this with a factual national and public interest approach that can delve deep into what the EU does for us and what it let's us achieve worldwide, it would be an education as well as common sense to lead us out of this mess. Facts need to show the way and no ticking clock either. We need to take a step back and have a honest frank discussion about our EU membership without an axe hanging over us. This would be for everyone not just leave or remain. It should go hand in hand with UK issues that people feel left behind and what they fear. Open the discussion and lay out the facts and truths. Revoking article 50 needs to be tabled by the leadership as well as initiating a fact based reality check and education of the UK in the EU that parliament and people understand instead of lies, misleading truths and quite frankly what many don't know.

Remain should have had a two pronged approach. First appealing to people why to stay, and second to explain why leaving won't stop brown people or give people jobs back or get the government to actually listen to people that feel disenfranchised

Basically recognising the ignorant/prejudiced out there and talking in their terms

What willl happen when we leave and external non-EU migration goes *up* because now we have a huge skills shortage? What will the racist idiots do then?
 

ManixMiner

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
1,117
The Un-united Kingdom
Lammy dropping truth bombs there. Wonder if he could get enough votes to lead Labour in the future.

Such a fantastic speech - almost tempted to send it to my Daily Mail reading, leave voting father and see what he has to say!

Neither of us have talked about Brexit since the vote two years ago when we had a huge row.

I know how you feel being the only person who voted remain in my family, Brexit isn't discussed at family get togethers because emotions run high and we argue so it's left unspoken.
 

Tangyn

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,280
Lammy dropping truth bombs there. Wonder if he could get enough votes to lead Labour in the future.



I know how you feel being the only person who voted remain in my family, Brexit isn't discussed at family get togethers because emotions run high and we argue so it's left unspoken.

Yea indeed! All family gatherings have been awful since the vote - everyone afraid of causing a row. My family is split 50/50 with it being younger vs older (with the exception of my younger sister....).

Everyone generally just avoids talking about it especially because my partner is Polish and she is likely to punch someone haha.
 

RellikSK

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,470


Nothing wrong here, just an impartial BBC presenter shutting down criticism of a media outlet that he chairs, when discussing the role of the media in legitimising and emboldening the far right.
 

Garfield

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 31, 2018
2,772
The fact the Lammy speech went down well on this board, tells you all you need to know, he would get buried in an election. It is like the truth that no party ever got to power by promising to raise taxes. Classic example of why politicians sit on the fence with every answer.


A few interesting titbits from brexitcast

Amendments will happen before vote, so Tory's will start accepting lots to make vote close, there is a feeling that once the vote has happened if it is winnable on a second vote the EU will offer something, Irish PM is starting to wobble in panic of no deal
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
Hearing good things about the new host on QT, seems she actually makes the Tories answer questions which is a massive step up.

Anyway, here is a slow motion car crash for you.
 
Jun 2, 2018
812
Northern Ireland
Yea indeed! All family gatherings have been awful since the vote - everyone afraid of causing a row. My family is split 50/50 with it being younger vs older (with the exception of my younger sister....).

Everyone generally just avoids talking about it especially because my partner is Polish and she is likely to punch someone haha.

My eldest brother, I think he voted leave, but he's now definitely remain, which is interesting. We talked about it the other day, and he agreed it's going to be a shitfest.

Other siblings were remain anyway. Haven't moved at all on that.

You feel like you can't mention the B word.
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,662
My family are all xenephobes unfortunately. They spout the sort of arguments that the average Sun reader might. Needless to say those arguments don't stand up to scrutiny.

Sad really, given our father was an immigrant. I suspect it's probably because they're not that bright in general though, rather than any active desire to be malicious.
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
loved owen jones on this week, I don't care what angry people on the internet say, he's a good lad
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
loved owen jones on this week, I don't care what angry people on the internet say, he's a good lad
I just cant stand the idiots that try to put the blame on him for trying to actually speak "Its really unprofessional/disrespectful" etc.

He got invited on to speak about the rise of the far right and how the media has helped spread it and yet he isnt apparently allowed to mention the spectator which has had pro-fascist articles etc. all because that prick Andrew Neil is the chair of it.
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,740
Does anybody else feel like Conservative policy is unraveling at a rapid pace?

Austerity has been shot to pieces and proven as harming the most vulnerable in our society, their handling of the NHS has been heavily criticised with advice telling them to undo the 2012 reforms, the benefits freeze could be ending as soon as next year, Universal Credit is dead in its current state, even the wheels are falling off deficit reduction, etc.

Even outside of Brexit, it feels like the near-decade of Conservatives in power will be defined by failure, and making everything far worse.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,902
I know how you feel being the only person who voted remain in my family, Brexit isn't discussed at family get togethers because emotions run high and we argue so it's left unspoken.
Same for my parents and my partners parents. Both are Leave voters and both share xenophobic sentiments they swear are justified with the usual bullshit rhetoric and the EU being the devil for the past forty years.

Every time Brexit is mentioned it gets heated, so we just avoid it entirely. Last one was a week or two before Christmas and everyone left feeling pretty shit.
 

Teddy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,287
Does anybody else feel like Conservative policy is unraveling at a rapid pace?

Austerity has been shot to pieces and proven as harming the most vulnerable in our society, their handling of the NHS has been heavily criticised with advice telling them to undo the 2012 reforms, the benefits freeze could be ending as soon as next year, Universal Credit is dead in its current state, even the wheels are falling off deficit reduction, etc.

Even outside of Brexit, it feels like the near-decade of Conservatives in power will be defined by failure, and making everything far worse.

And yet 40% of voters choose them. Brexit is the only thing keeping them together.
 
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