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ManixMiner

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
1,117
The Un-united Kingdom
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...theresa-may-deal-commons-letter-a8773671.html

Now it has been alleged that Mr Corbyn's office agreed the letter should set out clear support for the referendum, if Ms May turned down his offer - only to omit the sentence at the last minute.

Such a shame that the 2nd largest party has gone all in on Brexit, I'm sure this is going to blow up in Labours face come the next GE.

Corbyn has dropped all morals in his bid to become the next PM even if he is the PM of ashes.
 

Deleted member 50969

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 17, 2018
892
Well, I can put food on the table and have a mortgage so I'm doing better than most. I'd say I don't understand how most people manage but I do - debt. It just pisses me off that the party of "family values" has made it so hard for my generation.

Every year, the white picket fence dream is closed off by door after door. The basics our boomer relatives had will never be available to us without having multiple avenues of money coming in.
 

Deleted member 862

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,646
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...theresa-may-deal-commons-letter-a8773671.html



Such a shame that the 2nd largest party has gone all in on Brexit, I'm sure this is going to blow up in Labours face come the next GE.

Corbyn has dropped all morals in his bid to become the next PM even if he is the PM of ashes.
He's got even less chance of being PM after brexit than he does right now, not sure why anyone thinks either party is going to survive if it goes wrong.

Anyway, I don't know if the story is true or not (it probably is) but it's well timed to put pressure on whatever the reason.
 

ManixMiner

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
1,117
The Un-united Kingdom
He's got even less chance of being PM after brexit than he does right now, not sure why anyone thinks either party is going to survive if it goes wrong.

Anyway, I don't know if the story is true or not (it probably is) but it's well timed to put pressure on whatever the reason.

Yeh I agree the fracture in the Tories over Europe is well known but they have managed to stick together, in Labour though it's brand new and has really divided the party.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...theresa-may-deal-commons-letter-a8773671.html



Such a shame that the 2nd largest party has gone all in on Brexit, I'm sure this is going to blow up in Labours face come the next GE.

Corbyn has dropped all morals in his bid to become the next PM even if he is the PM of ashes.

I still find this story a bit iffy even beyond the usual cast of Corbynphobes doing the talking, Starmer should quit over something like that being done to him, nobody would blame him and there would be no point being the Brexit secretary if you're being shafted like that.
 

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,991
I'm not even sure why the letter matters at this point when May's already rejected it, it's not like a referendum that she doesn't really want was going to suddenly make her say yes.

As much as a referendum would be the one way out for remain, I still just don't see it happening regardless of whether Corbyn supports it or not.
Yeh I agree the fracture in the Tories over Europe is well known but they have managed to stick together, in Labour though it's brand new and has really divided the party.
I mean I don't think it's that new in Labour either, really, it's not like Corbyn only just joined. It's just the Tories are far far better at putting the party before everything else, even if they don't agree with everything the leader is doing, it's more preferable for them to still be in power than another party.
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,504
I don't know. I think that Corbyn's position has actually gotten better since last December, which was the low point. Most of the impossible demands have been dropped or being pushed way to the back. Now Labour's proposal looks actually workable and it mitigates most of the Brexit damage.

I personally would prefer a second referendum and Labour to push for it but I need to acknowledge that Labour is the opposition right now. In a way bundling up a second ref with the proposal would have given the Tories a way to dismiss it as a bundle. I don't think that Corbyn excluded it because of that, though, he wants a soft Brexit.

The big problem remains the government. Not even the most firebrand opposition could change the current trajectory. You would have either united the ERG behind May or got enough Tory rebels for May's plan.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
It worrying that nobody in power seems to give a shit or they are putting on a brace face hoping magic happens.

This whole thing is self inflicted and reckless but could be stopped if anyone had the balls to tell the truth. For the good of the nation my arse.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,022
Hull, UK
It worrying that nobody in power seems to give a shit or they are putting on a brace face hoping magic happens.

This whole thing is self inflicted and reckless but could be stopped if anyone had the balls to tell the truth. For the good of the nation my arse.

Peston compared it to the Lehman Brothers collapse, where everyone knew how bad it was going to be, but no one stopped it due to mistaken beliefs.

So that's great.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,073
Oh look "Save her party... and herself". Jeez, who cares about the fucking party when a no deal Brexit would fucking murder the country (and probably get you kicked off and poison the well of the party for longer than a "selling to Europe" move).

Edit: and all of this could have been easily not been a major issue if all parties in the UK had sat down before calling Article 50 to more or less put some common points. But of course, Tories cant have negotiations with other parties.
 

gosublime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,428
May has more than ever bought into the Smith-Lewis argument that party unity has to come first

And there lies the problem. No matter that the country needs to stockpile body bags, that MPs have been briefed about a rise in suicides, that the Cabinet has had arguments about whether to prioritise medicine or food - but Party Unity has to come first.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,073
"Part of the point of the election was that if we'd got a bigger majority, we would have been able to make the compromises more readily."

tumblr_o8e8ru1Fru1tu80cno7_250.gif
 

ryodi

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,345
We're relying on Remainer Tory 'rebels' to actually find a spine, we're definitely fucked. The ERG are organised which is why No Deal is going to happen and because this country is awful the Tory party will stay together and survive in still running the country.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,348
Seriously have taken a dislike to Corbyn over brexit. For someone who claims to want to do what's best for the collective his only concern right now is himself.

One should never support or defend the head of a party just because he leads the party you are always voting for.
If the leader is shit, he or she should be ditched, even if there are no immediate "better" candidates.

Schröder killed the SPD in Germany with his center-right policies, hundreds of thousands of voters turned their back on the party and still won't vote for the SPD over a decade later.
The current SPD leadership is trying to kill or change the laws that they, as a party under Schröder, created in the early 2000's, helplessly trying to safe their relevance and place as the second largest party in Germany. Currently, they will be lucky if they are the 3rd largest party in the next 5 years.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,501
Cape Cod, MA
Oh I'm not denying how wreckless it is, but I think there would be a major ramping up of no deal preperations within a few weeks if it was true.

They can't all be like Chris Grayling.
:( oh shit
I don't think we can apply logic to what the government are doing. They're all so invested in magic thinking at this point. You'd think given any possible scenario that they'd be ramping up SOMETHING right now. Like, if it was going to be a delay, you'd think there'd be something visible happening along those lines too.

I think May and a lot of people, find the dangers so hard to even think about, they're just not thinking about them.

People do this stuff all the time when deadlines are approaching, or when they're getting deeper and deeper in debt or what have you.
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,504
Schröder killed the SPD in Germany with his center-right policies, hundreds of thousands of voters turned their back on the party and still won't vote for the SPD over a decade later.
The current SPD leadership is trying to kill or change the laws that they, as a party under Schröder, created in the early 2000's, helplessly trying to safe their relevance and place as the second largest party in Germany. Currently, they will be lucky if they are the 3rd largest party in the next 5 years.
The SPD is a different case, though. They have been stuck in the "New Labour" like mindset until very recently. Also Germany's electoral dynamics are different. The new direction (if actually pursued) paired with being in the opposition will get them back long term.
 

BrokenIcarus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
444
Jeez, is the stupidity of a few dozen rich politicians going to lead to the next global recession? What a fucking shitshow
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,740
Do politicians still get egged? Feels like I haven't seen it happen in a while.

Maybe that's why they're being more boneheaded than usual. Put the fear of eggs back into them, I say.
 

Micael

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,362
I don't think we can apply logic to what the government are doing. They're all so invested in magic thinking at this point. You'd think given any possible scenario that they'd be ramping up SOMETHING right now. Like, if it was going to be a delay, you'd think there'd be something visible happening along those lines too.

I think May and a lot of people, find the dangers so hard to even think about, they're just not thinking about them.

People do this stuff all the time when deadlines are approaching, or when they're getting deeper and deeper in debt or what have you.

This, so much this, as someone looking from the outside the UK makes absolutely no sense what so ever right now, for comparison I totally get what is happening in the US, the GOP is a party made of absolutely crazy people, they have been going there a while, Trump is a crazy person, so you get stupid crazy stuff all the time, it makes sense.
With the UK though, sure David Cameron enjoyed his pork pie a little too much, but he wasn't crazy, Theresa May might be a bit of a 1984 nutter and generally incompetent but she is also not crazy, Jeremy Corbyn is also not crazy, yet the end result so far seems almost like the country is being run by the more extreme crazy elements despite them not actually holding power, worst of all most people in charge seem to be giving very little fucks about the whole thing, it just makes no sense, it is like the country has collectively decided to test trial massive stupidity to see how it goes.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,859
Metro Detroit

This makes me so angry...
"I don't want to be ruled by the ECJ"
What the fuck are these people talking about?
 

IpKaiFung

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,350
Wales
It's always puzzled me that people don't understand what the role of the judiciary is. With regards to the EU those people who moan about sovereignty would have been better off voting for some actual politicians in the euro elections instead of useless sacks of shit that just turn up for their pay.
 

Deleted member 862

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,646
YouGov are at it again. Not only are the Tories 7pts ahead in their model (and nobody else's) but now they'd totally win a majority.

You'd almost think there was a snap election coming what with all the front page stories and polling 🤔

Luckily there's no major political event that could redefine the entire countty in a few weeks.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
YouGov are at it again. Not only are the Tories 7pts ahead in their model (and nobody else's) but now they'd totally win a majority.

You'd almost think there was a snap election coming what with all the front page stories and polling 🤔

Luckily there's no major political event that could redefine the entire countty in a few weeks.

If we are looking at the same thing then they only manage a majority on a uniform swing, Labour perform better in marginals and the other parties make some gains as well.
 

RellikSK

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,470
Labour doesn't need to even get larger than the Tories. As long as they can get the Tories down to around 290 seats, it means the Tories can't bribe the DUP to hold a majority and there would be enough seats to form a coalition of chaos between LD, SNP and Labour. Now obviously they would need to agree on a Brexit policy which should be Remain.
 

Celine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,030
What I think will happen is a piloted 'hard brexit'.
They will let the people taste the bitter pill for a few weeks and then after chaos ensures and people are scared enough they will sign a deal with EU to rejoin.
It would be a win win scenario for both the tories (they could say that they delivered on the brexit referendum and then course correct a wrong decision caused by brexiteers) and EU (which will have an exemplary case for everyone that think leaving EU is a good idea).
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,501
Cape Cod, MA
What I think will happen is a piloted 'hard brexit'.
They will let the people taste the bitter pill for a few weeks and then after chaos ensures and people are scared enough they will sign a deal with EU to rejoin.
It would be a win win scenario for both the tories (they could say that they delivered on the brexit referendum and then course correct a wrong decision caused by brexiteers) and EU (which will have an exemplary case for everyone that think leaving EU is a good idea).
Don't they have to wait ten years before reapplying to join?
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,859
Metro Detroit
What I think will happen is a piloted 'hard brexit'.
They will let the people taste the bitter pill for a few weeks and then after chaos ensures and people are scared enough they will sign a deal with EU to rejoin.
It would be a win win scenario for both the tories (they could say that they delivered on the brexit referendum and then course correct a wrong decision caused by brexiteers) and EU (which will have an exemplary case for everyone that think leaving EU is a good idea).
That ain't happening.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
If everything is called country-plus then No Deal should be called North Korea plus.

Technically, the UK meets all criteria for joining. But if this happens, I first want to see the EU to take action against the power of the UK to veto things.
No, there has been some drift. The UK's democratic system, for example, is not up to par anymore. The Lords would have to become an elected chamber.
 

Crispy75

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,051
What I think will happen is a piloted 'hard brexit'.
They will let the people taste the bitter pill for a few weeks and then after chaos ensures and people are scared enough they will sign a deal with EU to rejoin.
The EU takes its constitution (the handful of major and dozens of minor treaties ratified by member states) very seriously. The Ascension process is very strict and can't just be fudged around. Any sort of "re-admittance" has to happen before 29th of March.
 

GAMEPROFF

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,582
Germany
What I think will happen is a piloted 'hard brexit'.
They will let the people taste the bitter pill for a few weeks and then after chaos ensures and people are scared enough they will sign a deal with EU to rejoin.
It would be a win win scenario for both the tories (they could say that they delivered on the brexit referendum and then course correct a wrong decision caused by brexiteers) and EU (which will have an exemplary case for everyone that think leaving EU is a good idea).
What is the EU supposed to tell other countries that want to join but have to go through year long evaluations?
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
The EU takes its constitution (the handful of major and dozens of minor treaties ratified by member states) very seriously. The Ascension process is very strict and can't just be fudged around. Any sort of "re-admittance" has to happen before 29th of March.

I fully believe the U.K. will never rejoin the EU. At most I can see EEA and even that seems unlikely, because free movement is scary for many of you.

What is the EU supposed to tell other countries that want to join but have to go through year long evaluations?

Meh, while I wouldn't be for allowing them back in instantly they're an advanced democracy and not a pseudo-oligarchic state like Serbia.
 
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