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BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson
- Thread starter Uzzy
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I'm still shaking my head at yesterday's decision. Merkel might have been okay to manage financial crisis, but she has been the WORST for Europe and even with her stepping out of office by 2021 she still causes harm whenever it is about the future of Europe. I'm a big pro-European and I just CAN'T at delaying the important conversations to be held for the sake of the future of the European project. Doesn't matter where this ends, but it needs to be discussed NOW yet won't because of the delay as everything in the media will still be Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.
All the pressure if off now for Great Bratain and the cross-party talks in the national interest only commenced DAYS before the Brexit date. Both party leaders have constantly ignored national interest and only had power and party politics in mind. This will all return now and Europe has lost its bargaining chip already.
It's the first time I'm disappointed in Macron as well. Should have stayed strong.
I guess business interests won over political rationality, too.
All the pressure if off now for Great Bratain and the cross-party talks in the national interest only commenced DAYS before the Brexit date. Both party leaders have constantly ignored national interest and only had power and party politics in mind. This will all return now and Europe has lost its bargaining chip already.
It's the first time I'm disappointed in Macron as well. Should have stayed strong.
I guess business interests won over political rationality, too.
No-deal would have destroyed UK and Europe. EU works in the best interests for all of its members, it is not their fault why Theresa May is stubborn as hell and the UK Parliament is in a stalemate.
I know. The key to my mental stability is to pretend I'm in the worst timeline. Then I'm pleasantly surprised by the outcome. I think there will be a lot of focus in the future on this pivotal change in European politics. A lot of people with dodgy rationales will paint her as a saint.
Yeah, I hope it's just one self-published manuscript that sits in an attic. But I can't assume that.
I listened to a bit of Farage's show on the way home.
Who are all these people who pop up claiming to have voted remain, but now want to leave because they respect democracy?
One person described themselves as voting remain, but is now an ardent leaver....
The good news is he's off the air for a few weeks ...because he's launching his campaign for the European elections...joy
Who are all these people who pop up claiming to have voted remain, but now want to leave because they respect democracy?
One person described themselves as voting remain, but is now an ardent leaver....
The good news is he's off the air for a few weeks ...because he's launching his campaign for the European elections...joy
I don't see it.
Before the extension they build up pressure (as you would in negotiations) and stated a later deadline will only be granted if GB can present a new situation or solution to the crisis at the summit. They didn't yet granted a flexible extension.
Other member states with populists now know it's very worthwhile to pursue their agenda. They can always say the EU will give in eventually. While staying strong would have been a clear sign that you have to deal with the econonic consequences if you really want to pull through. Sometimes stupid people also need to see what it really means for their daily life if you simply drop out. Of course those people could not fallen for the populists in the first place that lied about national health service and so forth... But what to expect when people only google 'Brexit' the day AFTER the referendum.
I could understand if the EU member Ireland had strong resistance to a hard Brexit but it was so much about Merkel and Macron yesterday that I doubt it was them to have the final say.
This will be infinite and Macron's ideas will not be discussed again. Such a shame.
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Stop wishing no deal on UK, people would literally die. This isn't about showing people they are wrong in the nost harsh way possible. People would be the ones that suffer not the MP's etc. Also black and brown people that are a higher percentage of poor (there are more white people so more white poor people obviously) will be the ones to suffer.
Other member states with populists don't have the importance the UK has for the EU economy. No one cares if Hungary or Poland leave.
Sorry for sounding so bitter about it, I have supported the first extension but I fear this will not be going anywhere due to the points I raised earlier. The British parliament won't come to terms given its so split.
I wish GB to stay but I can't see it. On the other hand, I've not for once heard the sentence from British politicans 'the EU also needs to move forward and have room for internal reforms'. It's all very much circulating around themselves in GB and I find that very selfish. Getting to terms with Brexit is not only a responsibility towards British voters, but also a question of fairness towards the European Union. And I'm still extremly mad at Labour and Tories for sitting together for the first time like five days before Brexit. I know GB is not used to finding cross-party consensus but I can't comprehend how national interest can be so much below power and party interests.
I guess you could say it's selfish of me to want this to be over with as well, yes -- but then it really is pressing for the EU to move on, I feel.
Fair point but I would care. Everything coming down to economics is just sad when we should really debate Europe's political future. We haven't... since 2008 at least! We need the same that Greta is doing for environmental change for European politics, sort of a Pulse of Europe 2, I think.
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I know someone like that.
He's a massive conservative, he basically just follows the party line exactly.
Lot of them are fake. Few have been found out to be conservative members that make up they voted remain and have switched. It's fucking weird.
Nor do any have the issue of the Irish border.
As bad as a no-deal Brexit would be; the EU's biggest fear is related to Northern Ireland. Nobody wants to see a return of the Troubles.
Classical liberalism just isn't popular anymore. You gotta partner free market economics with reactionary conservatism and jingoistic nationalism to really sell it to people.
See: Trump, Lega Nord with their insane flat tax proposals
Macron is actually still strong domestically, despite all the criticism. As a matter of fact it's because all other parties have been destroyed that all they can do is criticize all he does. But after two years of reforms, there's still no consistent opposition to him.
I can't think of a french president in the last 3 decades that didn't have shit approvals.
We should all seek to emulate the french
Lol. I just looked at Hollande and he ended his presidency at 4% approval. Sarkozy at 10%. By that mark Macron is some unifying messianic figure.
French politics is a bit weird.
- The French President of the Fifth Republic is this odd copypasta of the pre-revolution absolute monarch minus the whole aristocracy thing.
- The current voting system pretty much ensures that the President can govern more or less unopposed for the entire term.
- French voters actually expect their President to play that role accordingly and if he doesn't, he loses the respect of his people. Cases in point: Hollande (too ordinary, undistinguished, indecisive = not presidential) and Sarkozy (a vulgar, uncultered upstart = not presidential either).
- But if he actually goes ahead and plays his role as intended, they hate him too and start calling for his head. Cue the inevitable 1789-style mass demonstrations.
From an outsider's point of view, the whole thing comes across as a contradictory back and forth between anti-authoritarian revolutionary fervor and a desire for firm, strong-willed top-down government.
Huh. I figured Macron was under fire in France, which resulted in his stunt the other night over the Brexit extension.
I did not expect that turn.
Huh. I wonder how many admitted racists feel the same way these days.
Not really, still trends in first place in the upcoming euro elections, and his popularity is business as usual from a french pov, in fact, it's not that bad.
Every french president (since mitterand) suffers a massive drop in popularity in the beginning of a mandate, and so far he is doing better than hollande, on par with sarkozy, and will probably trend around chirac's (second term)
funny graphic here : https://www.bfmtv.com/static/nxt-bfmtv/evenement/politique/popularite-presidents3.html
So from the UK Right Wing point of view, shouldn't they try everything they can to fuck with the upcoming EU elections and plant as many Right Wingers in there as possible so that they get what they want when they do finally leave? And as it looks like the EU is going to be willing to offer extension after extension, they should have quite a good amount of time to accomplish this no?
I completely understand the mentality behind respecting a democratic will (sorry if I sound like Theresa) but it's so odd how some will just abandon their own beliefs.
Democracy doesn't just stop because you lose a vote. And even if it did, we've had three years of utter bollocks to indicate that the chosen situation may not be the most plausible one.
Tbh, I got that vibe when it was three callers in a row saying similar things haha.
I very occasionally listen out of curiosity, but that jarred me a bit.
Think I'll stick with James O'Brien where I can. At least he actually engages with folk who disagree with him.
The reason behind it and the gains of Ukip are not, though. It means they (intend to) vote so because Brexit is not delivered instead of the sheer incompetence of the conservatives.
Its because they aren't stupid, they'd rather have the UK as a weak, pathetic, vassal state who pays loads of money for barely anything in return, which is what will happen with these idiots in the UK parliament(including labour).
I mean, half the country may try and do that, but that doesn't stop the other half from voting for non Brexit politcal parties.
Yeah but they problem is the right wing side has no compunction with running campaigns completely on lies just like they did leading up to the Brexit vote.
Brilliant. All we need now is for the South East to vote for someone else...
73 MEP's, divided up amongst the 9 English regions and Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Ok so the south east is a block but has 10 MEPs including Farage. And they all seem to be representing made up party names like 'party for European reform and nice cake'
So how do our votes affect that if we don't have one single MEP? Who do we vote for to kick Farage out?
So how do our votes affect that if we don't have one single MEP? Who do we vote for to kick Farage out?
It's a proportional system so Farage's support would have to collapse for him to not get in. Feel free to vote for whoever you want, every vote counts.
Its because Germany's economy relies in part on doing business with Britain. Germans are more pragmatic not emotional and bitter like the French have been. A good Brexit outcome is good for Germany and the EU.
Macron openly admitted his actions increase the likelihood of Brexit happening and of a hard Brexit. He's almost been salivating at no deal. ERG and hard Brexiters want a short as extension as possible and Macron helped them out. A longer delay would've really increased the chance for a softer Brexit or even another referendum, but Macron dutifully saved the Brexiters asses. Because like he said, why should he do anything positive for the remain side?
Its pretty crazy you have so many people in this thread arguing for a no deal Brexit, based purely upon their emotions.
It's to do with how the Quai d'Orsay train their diplomats, which is their own imperial legacy. Basically French diplomacy is very power orientated. Macron simply thinks the UK will be back at the table weaker almost instantly after a no deal, and frankly he's almost certainly right.
You may be correct. If that is true it's incredibly reckless. Even when the Britain was in the EU, it's always been Macron advocating against British wishes. Basically its been Germany the peacemaking liaison, with France and Britain on opposite sides. That's fine and all, France is allowed to disagree with Britain. But we cannot ignore the reality France has taken a rival and combatitive position against Britain. Admitting that doesn't mean you hate EU or want Brexit to happen.
Consistently undertaking actions that increase the likelihood of no deal and of Brexit happening is bullshit. I just don't see how any remainer can be happy with Macron has done, or support him in anyway. There has been momentum against hard Brexit, with Parliament legally forcing May to extend Brexit. Everyone agrees the longer the extension the bigger the possibility to reversing this. Brexiters were absolutely going insane at the prospect of a 1 year delay. Macron has been their best friend. Brexiters openly asked rightwing EU countries to veto or make the extension shorter. No one agreed. But France did the job for Jacob Rees Mog and Boris anyway.
And finally, what happened to all the solidarity with Ireland? Varadkar made it very clear what he wanted, and the EU27 agreed. Personally, to me it just shows you how full of shit the EU can be at times. Certainly EU unity just seems like bluff. The big decisions are always decided by Germany and France. This EU disunity over Brexit isn't the first time it has happened. But whenever it has, its been France leading the hardline charge in every circumstance, causing tempers to fray.
look at the unity in the UK since the referendum, you're making mountains out of molehills, it's pretty remarkable how they have stuck together across the continent, they have different interests in how this turns out. Macron is being fairly logical with the political situation at home and the threat from places like Italy, force the UK out or to stay and either way it won't be pretty for the UK and nationalist politics.
Regarding the European elections, you're an EU citizen right but if you live in different countries you hypothetically can choose to vote in your home country or the one you live in, for example a British person living in Germany could vote in Germany EU elections or the UK ones. So called expats and non UK EU citizens in the UK could strategically use their vote for pro EU candidates in the EU for the UK?
As a spaniard living in Sweden i got a form i had to fill to vote in Sweden ca. 1 month ago. Otherwise I would have to vote in Spain.
Thank you for allowing the world to disagree with the Mighty British.
Have you stopped for two seconds to think that maybe the French (and many other countries in the EU and around the world) actually think that it's Britain who has a rival and combative position against them?
BRITAIN IS NOT THE CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE.
UK is the country who adopted the "we take our toys and leave if we don't get what we want" as a national policy.
While France is still playing within the rules of EU. EU is not supposed to be a place where everybody has the same opinion, but the place where countries with different opinions reach a compromise acceptable for all. So UK has no right to be upset that Macron had a different opinion while he ended up accepting a compromise agreed with the rest of EU, especially since UK's request was even worse than Macron's position. This whole blaming game focused on Macron is very stupid and only serves to derail the blame from the real perpetrators: the British government and Parliament.
While France is still playing within the rules of EU. EU is not supposed to be a place where everybody has the same opinion, but the place where countries with different opinions reach a compromise acceptable for all. So UK has no right to be upset that Macron had a different opinion while he ended up accepting a compromise agreed with the rest of EU, especially since UK's request was even worse than Macron's position. This whole blaming game focused on Macron is very stupid and only serves to derail the blame from the real perpetrators: the British government and Parliament.
Again, I don't understand why Merkel would be the one person that makes you angry here. The long extension had a big majority at the EU CO and Tusk was its biggest proponent.
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