why are you playing devil's advocate for this? it was crystal clear. there's a 'european way of life', an 'african way of life', a 'chinese way of life' and an 'american way of life'.
what does each one refer to?
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BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson
- Thread starter Uzzy
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why are you playing devil's advocate for this? it was crystal clear. there's a 'european way of life', an 'african way of life', a 'chinese way of life' and an 'american way of life'.
what does each one refer to?
My problem is the title of "Defending the European way of life", rather than what he compared it to (though anyone talking about Africa as if it were one place gets an automatic side-eye from me).
The title implies that "the European way of life" is under attack from some other cultural group, which is basically the core argument of all fascists. Even if you try and defend it with "but I mean liberal values, tolerance and diversity, not white skin and Christianity!" you've already failed because you've conceded the core argument to the fascists.
Change it to "Promotion of European values" or something more positive for fucks' sake.
The title implies that "the European way of life" is under attack from some other cultural group, which is basically the core argument of all fascists. Even if you try and defend it with "but I mean liberal values, tolerance and diversity, not white skin and Christianity!" you've already failed because you've conceded the core argument to the fascists.
Change it to "Promotion of European values" or something more positive for fucks' sake.
To me a Chinese way of life implies censorship, propaganda, constant servailance and losing out on benefits or credit because you disagree with the leading party.
American way of life seems to be rampant gun violence and racism.
Dunno what is meant by African way of life though as Africa is a very large and diverse continent and I'm much less exposed to African goings on but the others conjure specific things to me, even if they are stereotypes.
I'd much rather a "European" way of life as it is now compared to China or America (well, US).
American way of life seems to be rampant gun violence and racism.
Dunno what is meant by African way of life though as Africa is a very large and diverse continent and I'm much less exposed to African goings on but the others conjure specific things to me, even if they are stereotypes.
I'd much rather a "European" way of life as it is now compared to China or America (well, US).
We don't have America's gun violence but we don't skimp on the racism.
I think you missed the point of my post, which was to have a first referendum of various leave scenarios to see which is the most popular, followed by a second ref of the winner against remain.
I'm just really not sure what you're point was. Nothing you said was wrong at all, I was just confused as to how it related to my post.
The problem with that is, how should I vote in the first referendum if I don't want to leave at all? "Least worst" seems logical, but that could lead to Leave winning the second ref because it's more palatable to more people, even though it's definitely not what I want. So abstain? What if the most worst option wins because all the remainers abstained, and then Leave wins round 2 anyway?
Everything is fucked and we are all fucked and there are no solutions and I'm off for a drink.
Gee I wonder how a deal can be reached when you're pulling these stunts
P.S.: I don't need to interpret what Weber meant, he's a scumbag period and Leyen deserves the criticism for the "way of life" title
Even that is on dodgy territory, in my opinion. I'm not exactly sure what their exact remit is but if, for example, it is about tolerance and diversity why not be the VP for "protecting tolerance and diversity"?
When you start talking about European ways of life or European values, even in a more positive manner, you are already making huge generalisations as well as implicit judgements on other cultures. Most European countries are ahead of many others on other continents in things like human rights and that should be protected and be the focus of continual improvement but, unfortunately, many of the things our so-called European values look down upon are prevalent in our own societies too.
Instead of pretending we are somehow superior, whether it's our values or way of life, we should focus on the actual issues that involves. On top of that, while the focus of the EU is obviously Europe and not the rest of the world we have millions of non-EU natives living across Europe and any language that potentially creates the appearance of us and them should be actively avoided, it just isn't very inclusive.
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Not like people don't have memories, I'm sure they remember the key points.
What's with this secret plan only a few know that will be unveiled at the next EU summit, must be nonsense, a threat probably.
Two and half years on, still not wanting to 'reveal our hand' in the negotiations. 74nd dimensional chess.
We don't wanna reveal our hand because the rest of the deck was already spilled across the table
They take the papers back otherwise the EU would go through them and find out they're just full of Lorem Ipsum.
1% chance it's a serious wa with an irish sea backstop and they do not want the dup to know.
99% chance it's just the old same nonsensical wa with the unpleasant parts deleted + non existent tech solutions and they take it back because even those clowns know how ridiculous it is.
99% chance it's just the old same nonsensical wa with the unpleasant parts deleted + non existent tech solutions and they take it back because even those clowns know how ridiculous it is.
EU: Aurora Brexitalis?! At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your notes!?!
UK Officials: Yes.
EU: May I see it?
UK Officials: Er... no.
UK Officials: Yes.
EU: May I see it?
UK Officials: Er... no.
I can't believe I even have to say this, but who fucking cares about awkward contradictions supporting the deal when it's an actual way forward, and not another rehash of the same bullshit we've had to deal with for three years with no end in sight?
Labour - in Government solo or in Coalition - could probably squeak some kind of Soft Brexit deal through Parliament, provided Hard Brexit and Hard Remain wingnuts aren't literally the only people who get elected at the next GE. That'll get put to a public confirmatory vote with Remain on the ballot (likely to be policy in Labour's next manifesto, and undoubtedly so in a Coalition), and the outcome of that will be where things go next.
Parliament and EU alike would be fucking NUTS to turn down a solution like that because "oh, you're not enthusiastic enough about the deal...", because even if Leave were to win again it'd be a.) with a deal already in place, b.) one that isn't as profoundly damaging as No Deal, or even May's deal, and c.) is able to maintain the Good Friday Agreement (you'd be out your mind if you thought Labour, Corbyn especially, wouldn't prioritise this because of "muh Lexit").
The psychodrama has to end at some point. Unfortunately, given the madness the Lib Dems are on from huffing their own farts, it seems the actions of the so-called "party of Remain" are more likely to prolong the logjam than solve anything. They may even lead us down the path to more turmoil, like the Coalition 2.0 with the Tories and a No Deal vs Remain referendum. It speaks highly to the enormous hubris of continuity Remain that they STILL don't expect to lose, or that Revoke is even remotely possible.
Labour have the only credible Brexit policy now. Tories never had it in the first place, and the Lib Dem leadership has gone mental.
Oh hey, John Bercow is coming to my uni this Thursday to give a speech:
Let's see:
- He's been invited by the local "Europa Institute"
- The talk is titled "Britain and Europe: Past, Present and Future"
- He's giving it as part of the "Churchill Symposium 2019"
- He's giving it in the very same auditorium where Churchill delivered his "United States of Europe" speech on the 19th of September 1946...
- ...so this Thursday is also the 73rd anniversary of that speech.
Top bants, Mr. Speaker, top bants indeed.
Let's see:
- He's been invited by the local "Europa Institute"
- The talk is titled "Britain and Europe: Past, Present and Future"
- He's giving it as part of the "Churchill Symposium 2019"
- He's giving it in the very same auditorium where Churchill delivered his "United States of Europe" speech on the 19th of September 1946...
- ...so this Thursday is also the 73rd anniversary of that speech.
Top bants, Mr. Speaker, top bants indeed.
Labour only have the credible Brexit policy if you "Believe in the will of the people!!!!" and that politicians need to pander to the leave bullshit.
If you think politicians should be doing what's actually best for the country and it's people because it's their job to understand issues the public don't then the Lib Dem revoke policy is the only credible one.
I absolutely believe you, and don't actually think I can physically bring myself to watch this. Sometimes I just know when something is going to make me far too angry for absolutely no benefit, and I'm 99.9% positive this video would be one of those.
Yeah it probably would, just equal parts amazing and disgusting that these people exist and represent a sizable portion of the country.
I caught a bit of the news which showed a similar types, basically get rid of democracy....a bit facist...umm send them to Birmingham save.
After watching Rise of the Nazis documentary on BBC, I could pigeon hole the lot of them.
Funny how EU migration has magically turned into Muslim migration. Tell us how you really feel.
After watching Rise of the Nazis documentary on BBC, I could pigeon hole the lot of them.
Funny how EU migration has magically turned into Muslim migration. Tell us how you really feel.
Saw that, get rid of parliament while also sending it to Birmingham to get it "out of the way". Would be equal parts fascinating and horrifying to figure out how these people's brains actually work.
The electorate cares if Labour's plans are perceived to be silly, and I agree I would prefer Labour being at the front of a remain alliance, they're just not there.
As I've said, the "leave" option needs to be representative of the leave base otherwise the referendum exercise is pointless. I'm not sure a Norway-ish Brexit is ok for that base.
Interestingly, Corbyn wrote an op-today about Brexit:
No indication he would campaign for remain. That is not reassuring to me. I'm 90% convinced Corbyn will campaign for his deal vs remain, given the "will of the people" and delivering brexit.
With how polarized this country is at the moment labour strategy will be a losing strategy.
Remainers will vote lib dems to end this farce and brexiteers will vote tory/brexit.
They need to come out and position themselves clearly as remain, pro EU opposition.
Otherwise they will get eaten by both sides.
That isn't your fucking job Jeremy.
Your job is to make decisions on behalf of the people of Britain that are in their best interests, not pander to populism. The average UK citizen clearly has no understanding of the EU, alongside a host of other political issues. That's why we have MPs instead of a referendum every week on every decision. It's their job to understand these things and make the best decision for us.
Why have MPs suddenly forgotten this?
I don't mind Corbyn's position on being neutral as it helps counter the argument that the people in power aren't listening. I don't think he planned it that way but it's a happy accident of sorts that he has a long history of having more principled eurosceptic views than Boris.
Speaking of the opportunistic fucker, I really am struggling not to believe this is a joke or its actually the first of April.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-with-backstop-scrubbed-out-uk-sources-admit
Speaking of the opportunistic fucker, I really am struggling not to believe this is a joke or its actually the first of April.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-with-backstop-scrubbed-out-uk-sources-admit
Tbf his most recent comments on FoM were that it was on the table for negotiations. I think even he realised that FoM is the main red line that prevents any good deals with the EU.
That's true but it always leads directly back to why bother leaving then because it's worse than the deal we have now. You just can't get around it without be honest with the public which few seem keen to do with regards to FoM and our current deal in comparison to any other.
It isn't on the table though is it? The entire scope for negotiation on Freedom of Movement is "You have it or you don't", that's literally it. There's nothing else to negotiate.
That...means it's on the table. I genuinely don't understand your question? Yeah, FoM is an in or out scenario, so Corbyn saying it would be in the negotiations means he's willing to accept that "In" scenario if it comes with the rest of a deal that fits what Labour wants. Like I'm genuinely not sure what other way there is to read it?
Yeah, I agree. It's probably part of why Corbyn is suggesting he'd stay neutral in that referendum. Largely just because he does not give a shit about Brexit either way but also it means he doesn't need to be the one trying to educate voters about this whole mess.
Then why say it's open for negotiation?
You either explicitly say you will have it, which he should since everything else he wants is contingent on it, or explicitly say you won't have it in which case May's deal is the best you're going to get.
Saying "It's on the table/It's open for negotiation" is just more non-committal fence sitting by Corbyn.
You're looking way too much into it.
It's open to negotiation because it still needs to be part of negotiations with the EU, Labour want other stuff in exchange for keeping FoM (and depending on what those things are will probably get them) but negotiations still have to happen. It's not some magic switch where they flip it to FoM On and then a deal just forms.
I'm not too sure. SNP and Lib Dems will probably be okay with just a second referendum on any deal because they're pushing hard for Remain anyway.
Wouldn't surprise me if they leave the deal negotiations entirely to Labour because they want it to fail regardless.
Yeah, I'm trying not to get ahead of the present problem of getting the Tories out but the politics of what follows is pretty hard to judge given the weak positions of every party with the voters.
Or the plans are absolutely amazing, making it obvious how the UK can't just survive a hard Brexit, but indeed profit from it immensely. The UK government is just keeping it secret out of diplomatic reasons, as such a document - highlighting how a EU member with a huge dependence on the single market can do well outside of it - would tear apart the Union. So really, Merkel and co. should be thanking Boris - The Hulk - Johnson for snatching the papers away from them.
Will admit that I read The Sun earlier because it was left down my local pub, and I was intrigued by the Stokes story.
Got around half-way through the paper before declaring to a friend that it was "utter pile of shite".
Really very worrying that people read this shit and think it's in anyway an accurate portaryal of fact. Bunch of shitty op-eds disguised as news articles, alongside 'humourous' stories about people giggling during sex.
Got around half-way through the paper before declaring to a friend that it was "utter pile of shite".
Really very worrying that people read this shit and think it's in anyway an accurate portaryal of fact. Bunch of shitty op-eds disguised as news articles, alongside 'humourous' stories about people giggling during sex.
Funny seeing the same arguments from people in here against Labour's position again, except this time they've actually shifted to that second referendum you wanted so hard.
The absolute fucking scale of delusion of Hard Remain is in part why we're here. It is fundamentally true the Leave campaign were not prepared to win... but Remain were also not prepared to lose, and they still aren't. Every wheeze from the embarrassingly contrived National Unity Government, to the latest Lib Dem switcheroo that suddenly the second referendum with Remain on the ballot they campaigned for isn't enough... it's all stupid stunt politics that goes nowhere. Shiny baubles for politicos and press hacks to get excited about for ten minutes, but not real solutions.
The fact we're seeing many of the same people beating the drum for Revoke that were breathlessly in awe of Change UK should say a lot.
Hard Brexit ultras in Parliament and in the public are going to cry foul on anything short of No Deal, but they had multiple shots at their preferred Brexit and fucked it up. They don't need pandering to anymore, and trying to placate them is part of what toppled May. Labour won't have that problem, because they make up such a minor part of the PLP (and may indeed all be gone after the next GE) to be inconsequential in a majority Government or a coalition.
Ironically it'll be Hard Remain who may be difficult to get on-side with a Soft Brexit Labour negotiate themselves or in Coalition; even if it later goes to the public vote they've been campaigning for. Maybe they should actually listen to Ken Clarke, who they were so ferociously pimping as a potential leader of a National Unity Government, that MPs should consider what options they can "live with".
Tories will never figure it out. Lib Dems' flagship policy of Revoke will never fucking happen (and might just be a way to strong-arm Coalition 2.0 with the Tories into a referendum? As if that's never backfired for them before). Labour can probably get Soft Brexit, and will put it to the public against Remain. It is by far the safest plan, and the only one that could actually work.
Eye-rollingly trite stuff to even entertain the opinion the Brexit genie will go back in it's bottle, no questions asked, with zero future repercussions, by Revocation of Article 50.
The absolute fucking scale of delusion of Hard Remain is in part why we're here. It is fundamentally true the Leave campaign were not prepared to win... but Remain were also not prepared to lose, and they still aren't. Every wheeze from the embarrassingly contrived National Unity Government, to the latest Lib Dem switcheroo that suddenly the second referendum with Remain on the ballot they campaigned for isn't enough... it's all stupid stunt politics that goes nowhere. Shiny baubles for politicos and press hacks to get excited about for ten minutes, but not real solutions.
The fact we're seeing many of the same people beating the drum for Revoke that were breathlessly in awe of Change UK should say a lot.
Only addressing this part as Corbyn has already said he'll stay neutral on supporting the deal or Remain; which is sensible, because it doesn't let anybody treat him as a political football like 2016 onwards. Cue the played out "fence sitting" remarks, but it's completely reasonable given past behaviour of other parties to say he's for this or against that, to just hold his hands up and say "here's the framework for a way forward, I'll let the people decide and respect the decision".
Hard Brexit ultras in Parliament and in the public are going to cry foul on anything short of No Deal, but they had multiple shots at their preferred Brexit and fucked it up. They don't need pandering to anymore, and trying to placate them is part of what toppled May. Labour won't have that problem, because they make up such a minor part of the PLP (and may indeed all be gone after the next GE) to be inconsequential in a majority Government or a coalition.
Ironically it'll be Hard Remain who may be difficult to get on-side with a Soft Brexit Labour negotiate themselves or in Coalition; even if it later goes to the public vote they've been campaigning for. Maybe they should actually listen to Ken Clarke, who they were so ferociously pimping as a potential leader of a National Unity Government, that MPs should consider what options they can "live with".
Tories will never figure it out. Lib Dems' flagship policy of Revoke will never fucking happen (and might just be a way to strong-arm Coalition 2.0 with the Tories into a referendum? As if that's never backfired for them before). Labour can probably get Soft Brexit, and will put it to the public against Remain. It is by far the safest plan, and the only one that could actually work.
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