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BREXIT |OT2.0| No government is better than a bojo government

Faddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,876
They're not already full members. We are, and have an economy built around that fact. And they're willing to accept freedom of movement when Labour won't even commit to that.
That is a fair point. That Labour is not committed to Freedom of Movement, it doens't make them racist though.

Labour haven't been part of any official negotiations. So we don't know what deal they will strike with the EU. Once we know that then it is proper to take a position on the referendum.

Remember that a Labour Government means a 2nd referendum between a Labour Deal and Remain. Where as a Tory government means we will probably do a hard brexit because Boris Johnson will not negotiate a new deal.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,113
London
I don't think it was the remain branch that turned it into a confidence vote - it was the lexit wing in LOTO's office who put out a last minute fudge and pressured everybody to "support Jeremy".
 

Faddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,876
They are, but initially the chair thought the resolution had passed and someone had to tell her it didn't. Looking at the video I think there wasn't much between them so a formal vote would make sense.
I don't think a recount is the same thing as a Card Vote. Usually a Card Vote has different weighting than the conference floor, it isn't 1 delegate 1 vote.

edit: I found the rules

3.Conference rule 3 –Voting

A.Voting at Party conference on resolutions, reports, amendments, proposals and references back shall be by show of hands or, when the conditions laid down by the CAC require it, by card. When acard vote is called, voting shall be in two sections as follows:

i.Affiliated organisations,on the basis of the number of members for whom affiliation fees were paid for the year ending 31 December preceding the conference in accordance with Clause II of the constitution, the ALC and Young Labour, shall cast a percentage of the total voting entitlement as laid down in iv below. The vote of each affiliated organisation, the ALCand Young Labour shall then be divided equally among the registered delegates ofthat organisation standing appointed at the date determined by the NEC; such votes shall be allocated to each delegate to be cast separately.

ii.CLPs shall cast a percentage of the total voting entitlement as laid down in iv below, on the basis of the actualnumber of fully paid up members in the CLP at 31 December preceding the conference. The vote of the CLP shall then be divided equally among the registered delegates standing appointed at the date determined by the NEC; such votes shall be allocated to each delegate to be cast separately.

iii.The votes apportioned as provided for in i above and ii above shall be totalled and the aggregate reported to conference as a percentage for each section.

iv.The balance of voting between the two sections shall be: 50 per cent to the affiliated organisations (as in i above), and 50 per cent to the CLPs (as in ii above)

It looks like unions would hold even more power in a Card Vote.
 
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PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,404
London
I don't think it was the remain branch that turned it into a confidence vote - it was the lexit wing in LOTO's office who put out a last minute fudge and pressured everybody to "support Jeremy".
You just answered the question i was about to ask, i was dreading this would have come from some bright spark in the PLP.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,094
That is a fair point. That Labour is not committed to Freedom of Movement, it doens't make them racist though.

Labour haven't been part of any official negotiations. So we don't know what deal they will strike with the EU. Once we know that then it is proper to take a position on the referendum.

Remember that a Labour Government means a 2nd referendum between a Labour Deal and Remain. Where as a Tory government means we will probably do a hard brexit because Boris Johnson will not negotiate a new deal.
Not supporting Freedom of Movement is a racist policy. There is literally no other reason not to support it.

If they go into negotiations with FoM as a red line then May's Deal is the best you can get. If you have no intention of having FoM then there is literally no point in going back to the negotiating table.
 

Faddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,876
Not supporting Freedom of Movement is a racist policy. There is literally no other reason not to support it.

If they go into negotiations with FoM as a red line then May's Deal is the best you can get. If you have no intention of having FoM then there is literally no point in going back to the negotiating table.
How is not supporting Freedom of Movement racist?

Why should Europeans be given priority in coming to Britain to find work vs Africans, Asians, Americans etc. Why isn't that considered racist? Our immigration policy with Freedom of Movement favours majority white nations.

May's deal is not the best you can get. For example if we accepted standards on agriculture, product safety etc we can be in a customs union to ensure trade continues to be frictionless as possible.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,653
I don't think it was the remain branch that turned it into a confidence vote - it was the lexit wing in LOTO's office who put out a last minute fudge and pressured everybody to "support Jeremy".
I don't actually know who is blame, those were two separate thoughts. I will say that the leadership obviously presented their idea yesterday and today all the press have been saying is "a Labour source said" and using words like "panic" and "challenge".

Whatever happened it got away from them the remain people and it became a confidence vote. This should've been handled better but after everything the party closed ranks and decided the leader was more important.

This is going to rumble on forever even though they kinda already won by getting the leadership to back a second referendum. I don't think they'll take that as a win though.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,653
The thing I don't get is they think this is a good idea. Let's say Labour do win, 3 months into being PM there's the very real possibility that Corbyn's own party will campaign against the Brexit deal he just negoiated. Who is going to even stand next to it if Labour don't? The Tories aren't going to touch it so it just becomes some sick dog nobody wants. What happens then if it wins? It's just madness.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,113
London
How is not supporting Freedom of Movement racist?

Why should Europeans be given priority in coming to Britain to find work vs Africans, Asians, Americans etc. Why isn't that considered racist? Our immigration policy with Freedom of Movement favours majority white nations.

May's deal is not the best you can get. For example if we accepted standards on agriculture, product safety etc we can be in a customs union to ensure trade continues to be frictionless as possible.
May's deal was already a defacto customs union. Why do you think the nutters hate it so much. And a customs union is utterly insufficient when the majority of our economy is services, something not covered by a customs union.

And if we want to let more Africans or Asians or whatever in than that is entirely up to us, entirely separate from EU Freedom of Movement. The reason we don't is because a large part of this country is fucking racist, as is every lexiter cunt who likes to make this garbage argument. If you want freedom of movement for more non-Europeans than the correct move is to level up their ability to do so, not level down Europeans and pretend it's more fair. It's fundamentally racist because ending it is solely to keep out forrins. There is no other reason.
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
454
How is not supporting Freedom of Movement racist?

Why should Europeans be given priority in coming to Britain to find work vs Africans, Asians, Americans etc. Why isn't that considered racist? Our immigration policy with Freedom of Movement favours majority white nations.

May's deal is not the best you can get. For example if we accepted standards on agriculture, product safety etc we can be in a customs union to ensure trade continues to be frictionless as possible.
This is disingenuous at best. They’re not favoured because they’re white nations, they’re favoured due a reciprocal benefit being part of the worlds largest trading bloc. I don’t think it is inherently racist to be against FoM but the VAST majority of people against it, do so, solely based on racism, and/or xenophobia.
 

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,292
Scotland
How is not supporting Freedom of Movement racist?

Why should Europeans be given priority in coming to Britain to find work vs Africans, Asians, Americans etc. Why isn't that considered racist? Our immigration policy with Freedom of Movement favours majority white nations.

May's deal is not the best you can get. For example if we accepted standards on agriculture, product safety etc we can be in a customs union to ensure trade continues to be frictionless as possible.
I wouldn't go that far, but I'm resolute that supporting the end of FoM means you are breaking bread with xenophobes and hard-right nationalists. You can very much come up socialist motivations for it, but you're getting into bed with those people without really differing at all on policy.

It's still "British Jobs for British Workers" at it's core.
 

Faddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,876
May's deal was already a defacto customs union. Why do you think the nutters hate it so much. And a customs union is utterly insufficient when the majority of our economy is services, something not covered by a customs union.

And if we want to let more Africans or Asians or whatever in than that is entirely up to us, entirely separate from EU Freedom of Movement. The reason we don't is because a large part of this country is fucking racist, as is every lexiter cunt who likes to make this garbage argument. If you want freedom of movement for more non-Europeans than the correct move is to level up their ability to do so, not level down Europeans and pretend it's more fair. It's fundamentally racist because ending it is solely to keep out forrins. There is no other reason.
If May's deal was a defacto Customs Union why were there so many votes in Parliament trying to make the deal have a formal customs union.

Do you think all migration controls are racist? It is fine to say yes. But right now the way world labour is organised with vast differences in economic powers, wages, conditions having a borderless world is only going to lead to even more exploitation by capitalists.