BREXIT |OT2.0| No thread is better than a bad thread

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,844
Being Eurosceptic does not automatically make you a brexiteer.
Let's take a look at some of his Brexiteer credentials shall we?
  • Voting for the UK to leave the EEC in 1975
  • Voting against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993
  • Made multiple speeches against the EU in the 90s which were used during the 2016 Leave campaign
  • Voted consistently against the Lisbon treaty in 2008
  • Voted against the EU Diplomatic service
  • Broke the Labour whip in order to vote in favour of holding a referendum on EU membership in 2011
  • Voted against the creation of the EU Stability mechanism
  • Went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign, refused to attend remain campaign events and just generally contributed as little as possible to the remain campaign.
  • Called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 the morning after the referendum, before any kind of planning could even start to take place
  • Voted in favour of starting the process of invokine Article 50 and leaving the EU and invoked a 3 line whip for the Labour party to force them to do so
  • Has consistently pushed in favour of Brexit ever since the referendum
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
Yes but centrists find themselves in the same predicament as terfs. You can't spend years loudly proclaiming you're something (shit) and then when the realisation kicks in that the label is toxic, suddenly become offended at your own proclamation. Even if I call someone a fucking centrist, it still doesn't make centrist a slur.
Well I mean, the word "centrist" is used to denote being in the centre of the political spectrum, which by the way, is not the worst thing in the world and means they are potentially open to your way of thinking and can be brought round, which by the way, is necessary to win an election.

If twitter has started to use "Centrist" in a derogatory and offensive way and use it as an insult then it becomes an insult. So we'll just isolate and kick over to the other side the centre ground for what? Because we're mad that they're not left wing enough? It's just silly and reductive and generally not helpful and as I said earlier being a centrist in the UK is very different than being a centrist in the US, it's not quite as toxic.
 

RedSparrows

Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,205
'Centrist' as an attack basically rests on 'if you aren't with us, you are against us'.

Obvs if you aren't a social democrat (and ain't no commie either) you aren't going to agree with one on everything. The logic goes that you will thus be more interested in upholding the status quo. Which some of the time is true. But also sometimes...isn't. I don't know many people who have a position that doesn't rest on a varying set of values and that don't necessarily all fit neatly under one label, which leaves space for... Interesting things.

At the same time, 'both sides' is lazy as fuck as a default position.
 
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Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
'Centrist' as an attack basically rests on 'if you aren't with us, you are against us'.

Obvs if you aren't a social democrat (and ain't no commie either) you aren't going to agree with one. The logic goes that you will thus be more interested in upholding the status quo. Which some of the time is true. But also sometimes...
isn't.
I think if you have a well reasoned progressive message and policies and can fully and robustly cost it out so that people can't hit you with the "deficit" or "borrowing too much money" etc a lot of people would be fine to vote for it.

The most attractive quality the Tories generally have is that they are seen as more fiscally responsible (obviously not true but whatever) and so I think Labour need to work hard to show they are too, I think if you can do that then you've taken a big chunk of the centre ground. I think that's part of why Corbyn did so well the last time around, because he showed how he was going to pay for stuff (even though later upon deeper analysis there were some pretty wishy washy methods that looked a little sus).
 
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RedSparrows

Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,205
I think if you have a well reasoned progressive message and policies and can fully and robustly cost it out so that people can't hit you with the "deficit" or "borrowing too much money" etc a lot of people would be fine to vote for it.

The most attractive quality the Tories generally have is that they are more fiscally responsible (obviously not true but whatever) and so I think Labour need to work hard to show they are too, I think if you can do that then you've taken a big chunk of the centre ground.
Obvs so much of it is messaging. The great trick of the Tories et al is to be able to talk about fairness, justice, and 'safe hands' and not be laughed out the room.

Labour talking about tax and spend will always be cast as 'magix money tree'. But if that money is targeted well, and the messaging is clear, and the current Brexit lunacy that has Tories smashing the economy for ideology is exploited, then... That's better than not having it!
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
Obvs so much of it is messaging. The great trick of the Tories et al is to be able to talk about fairness, justice, and 'safe hands' and not be laughed out the room.

Labour talking about tax and spend will always be cast as 'magix money tree'. But if that money is targeted well, and the messaging is clear, and the current Brexit lunacy that has Tories smashing the economy for ideology is exploited, then... That's better than not having it!
The thing that always got me so fucking mad was when Cameron & Co were slamming Labour over "the deficit" when it was the financial fucking crash that fucked our economy up, not Labour spending too much. You can (and should) argue that Labour could have done more to scrutinise the banks (if they had tories would have freaked out) but it was Cameron's pals that destroyed the economy.

But facts don't matter if you can package up the blame in to something else, Labour should have defended their record on a lot of the positive change they brought but they let Cameron roll all over them with that shit.

Ever hear the tories mention the defiict anymore? Where are we with that by the way? Shouldn't we have removed it by now? /s
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,616
London
I don't see where the game playing is though, and I thought it was always clear that Ireland had real problems with the idea of a border and splitting up the island again.
 

Garfield

Member
Oct 31, 2018
1,051
I want Boris to win, and he will, not because of him, but because we need it...it is the only way Brexit gets done... the party will finally have no out, no remainers in charge... a true brexiteer, and when parliament blocks everything, as it will, it will inevitably lead to an election...

And whilst I agree that does not necessarily solve it, it will as well... as hopefully 2 part politics is now dead. Hopefully we will get get a coalition which tames both parties, one which pulls Corbyn more centre and one which pulls Johnson more left.
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
I want Boris to win, and he will, not because of him, but because we need it...it is the only way Brexit gets done... the party will finally have no out, no remainers in charge... a true brexiteer, and when parliament blocks everything, as it will, it will inevitably lead to an election...

And whilst I agree that does not necessarily solve it, it will as well... as hopefully 2 part politics is now dead. Hopefully we will get get a coalition which tames both parties, one which pulls Corbyn more centre and one which pulls Johnson more left.
I also had this thought today, the only way this can end is if BoJo is PM.

This all started because David Cameron and BoJo wanted to be PM, let them finish it.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,608
"The Independent" was taken by the newspaper, so they just added an "s" after dropping "Group", it was easier than actually thinking of a name. Plus that curly brace in the logo is frustrating my programmer brain
 

CampFreddie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
918
I don't see where the game playing is though, and I thought it was always clear that Ireland had real problems with the idea of a border and splitting up the island again.
Yeah, the border issue is more a choice of introducing border checks or allowing smuggling and tax dodging to go largely unchecked.
I think that the Irish would want to avoid border checks at all costs, so they'll probably just allow Northerners to dodge EU tariffs because losing out on some tax revenue from the small NI population is a price worth paying to avoid a return to the Troubles.
Ireland will be getting royally fucked by Brexit, so I can't see the EU pushing too strongly for a hard border. We'll probably get "technical solutions" that simply don't work but allow us to claim compliance with WTO rules on cross-border trade. Fortunately, the WTO is pretty toothless, since I'm sure lots of countries will complain about things like Irish Beef not being subject to the same border scrutiny as Argentinian Beef and thus breaking MFN rules.

Jesus Christ, what are the piss-artists formerly known as TIG thinking. No way does that name survive the electoral commission rules. A squiggly bracket does not hide how unimaginative the name is.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,914
I want Boris to win, and he will, not because of him, but because we need it...it is the only way Brexit gets done... the party will finally have no out, no remainers in charge... a true brexiteer, and when parliament blocks everything, as it will, it will inevitably lead to an election...

And whilst I agree that does not necessarily solve it, it will as well... as hopefully 2 part politics is now dead. Hopefully we will get get a coalition which tames both parties, one which pulls Corbyn more centre and one which pulls Johnson more left.
Lol
 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,762
Pay attention y'all, this is peak centrism on display.

Constant ineffectual rebranding of absolutely fucking nothing to the benefit of no-one except yourself.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,914
I don't see how the tories could possibly go into a coalition that doesn't get brexit done, so thats the Libdem's out if they don't want to die permanently, and i'm expecting more chaos the way the remain/leftish vote is fractured.
People not being able to let the centre myth go is more likely to contribute to a possible Brexit than any perceived flaw from Labour's leadership.
 

Git

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,973
Well I mean, the word "centrist" is used to denote being in the centre of the political spectrum, which by the way, is not the worst thing in the world and means they are potentially open to your way of thinking and can be brought round, which by the way, is necessary to win an election.

If twitter has started to use "Centrist" in a derogatory and offensive way and use it as an insult then it becomes an insult. So we'll just isolate and kick over to the other side the centre ground for what? Because we're mad that they're not left wing enough? It's just silly and reductive and generally not helpful and as I said earlier being a centrist in the UK is very different than being a centrist in the US, it's not quite as toxic.
Honestly I don't really even use 'centrist' for people resting in the middle of the spectrum - it's a very specific kind of ideology, the boogies of the world. The people who pop up and ~both sides~ fascism or other nefarious shit. You saw a lot in the US recently, more concerned with the discourse around calling camps camps, than criticising those camps. Here we've seen it with people falling over themselves to condemn milkshakes. In this sense, there's little difference between US and British centrists.
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
Honestly I don't really even use 'centrist' for people resting in the middle of the spectrum - it's a very specific kind of ideology, the boogies of the world. The people who pop up and ~both sides~ fascism or other nefarious shit. You saw a lot in the US recently, more concerned with the discourse around calling camps camps, than criticising those camps. Here we've seen it with people falling over themselves to condemn milkshakes. In this sense, there's little difference between US and British centrists.
Yeah and that’s not good because you’re making a word toxic for a thing it’s not even applicable for.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,616
London
I'm kinda lost on this centrist thing, is there a point on the political spectrum that doesn't get abuse and name calling, why would people in the centre be immune to attack?
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,191
I'm kinda lost on this centrist thing, is there a point on the political spectrum that doesn't get abuse and name calling, why would people in the centre be immune to attack?
It's based on a false understanding of dialectics. Centrists see themselves as the synthesis and thus think their position has already been subjected to challenge and compromise and thus is above politics.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,291
I think centrist/centrism is a particular strain of politics that was born out of the financial crash. They never quite came to grips with the fact the world view over the last 40 years has largely failed and now they don't fix it without destroying the house of cards they've built.
 

Git

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,973
Just on the logic of pejoratives: not necessarily... I mean, is 'chink' the 'fault' of Chinese people?

And before anyone fucking starts, no I am not comparing the two in terms of moral import.
That's a slur - not a pejorative.

The originally attested use of 'centrist' began as a pejorative - remarking on politicians who couldn't make up their minds. It's been fairly recently resurrected by (mostly) Blairites, once the New Labour gig was up and Labour started moving further to the left. 'centre-right' isn't as good a branding. It's now become a label of ridicule - again for politicians flip-flopping, pro-quo and the aforementioned ~bothsides~ goons. This is just how language evolves. There are still other labels -admittedly not as pithy- for the centre ground of the scale.
 
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Uzzy

Uzzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,330
Meanwhile!


The talks are stalling because the Yanks want to rip us away from EU standards, and we're equivocating over that decision. That's pretty much the big choice here.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,669
Chesire, UK
Centrists are the end point of the "truth is in the middle" "extremists" "both sides" bullshit that infests our politics. They are the result of "the end of politics" not actually existing. People who were comfortable in the 90s and 00s who don't recognise that the social order as they knew it then no longer exists.

Not every issue has a nice, pleasant, inoffensive middle position. The problems of the world will not be solved by desperately clinging to the status quo.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,236
I doubt you can do much at all until the Brexit future is clearer then the US goes "Muahahahahahaha!!!! The idiots actually did it" and some UK folk get rich helping them out while the rest of us take the full brunt.
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
Centrists are the end point of the "truth is in the middle" "extremists" "both sides" bullshit that infests our politics. They are the result of "the end of politics" not actually existing. People who were comfortable in the 90s and 00s who don't recognise that the social order as they knew it then no longer exists.

Not every issue has a nice, pleasant, inoffensive middle position. The problems of the world will not be solved by desperately clinging to the status quo.
But sometimes, the truth is in the middle.

That's what annoys me the most, yes both sidesing Charlottesville is fucking bad, but this approach and the words chosen to turn in to a pejorative is starting to suggest that wanting to listen to both sides of any argument is a toxic thing to do.

I think the "Centrists" rhetoric works well in US discourse and makes sense there but I do worry it's going to lead to people being laughed at for actually wanting to hear both sides on a totally different issue where hearing both sides is generally a good thing to do.
 
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Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,669
Chesire, UK
But sometimes, the truth is in the middle.

That's what annoys me the most, yes both sidesing Charlottesville is fucking bad, but this approach and the words chosen to turn in to a pejorative is starting to suggest that wanting to listen to both sides of any argument is a toxic thing to do.

I think the "Centrists" rhetoric works well in US discourse and makes sense there but I do worry it's going to lead to people being laughed at for actually wanting to hear both sides on a totally different issue where hearing both sides is generally a good thing to do.
A couple of things:

1) Taking a triangulated centre point as your political position on a issue by issue basis is very different that having that form your entire worldview.

2) The centre point you alight on is defined by the "extreme" positions you reject.

Centrists have a habit of pitting the most extreme right wing views against the most milquetoast left wing views, then settling happily into the centre-right and declaring that the middle
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
A couple of things:

1) Taking a triangulated centre point as your political position on a issue by issue basis is very different that having that form your entire worldview.

2) The centre point you alight on is defined by the "extreme" positions you reject.

Centrists have a habit of pitting the most extreme right wing views against the most milquetoast left wing views, then settling happily into the centre-right and declaring that the middle
Yeah maybe, particularly the sort of popular clowns you see on twitter, and the BBC's approach to "balanced" reporting.

However I bet there are many people within the UK that define themselves as centrists, e.g. Lib Dem supporters, that aren't doing that. I bet if you sat in a pub and had a political discussion with a centrist and a tory, you'd have more in common with the centrist than the tory.

I just wish we used better names to label things we take issue with, as it stands I do still feel American twitter and politics is generally making political discussion in the world more toxic and more polarising as we start seeing everything through their specific lens, and yes I do take issue with both sides for doing that!
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,191
However I bet there are many people within the UK that define themselves as centrists, e.g. Lib Dem supporters, that aren't doing that. I bet if you sat in a pub and had a political discussion with a centrist and a tory, you'd have more in common with the centrist than the tory.
You do know what happened the last time the LibDem governed. Or did you just wake up from a coma?