BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson

KingSnake · Jul 23, 2019

Flammable D said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_(Germany)

Are you trying to say that the 1933 Parliament vote was actually a democratic one and ignore the SA and the fact that the fascists already held the power through force by that moment?

Without even touching that the fact that the name of a party doesn't mirror its ideology.

Calabi · Jul 23, 2019

My god, we continue to be in farce land. Just hearing Boris Johnsons dad espouse the same bullshit If we just threaten to blow our head off then it will hurt the EU way more than us and we will survive, so the EU will come around and give us what we want.

If we keep trying the same thing the outcome is sure to change. How are these motherfuckers that dense, what does it take to get through these peoples heads I had no idea it was possible to be that stupid.

Gernau Morat Gurgeh · Jul 23, 2019

Calabi said:
My god, we continue to be in farce land. Just hearing Boris Johnsons dad espouse the same bullshit If we just threaten to blow our head off then it will hurt the EU way more than us and we will survive, so the EU will come around and give us what we want.

If we keep trying the same thing the outcome is sure to change. How are these motherfuckers that dense, what does it take to get through these peoples heads I had no idea it was possible to be that stupid.

They don't give a fuck. They are insulated almost completely from the effects of their own idiociy, and may even profit from the chaos they create in the time honoured tradition of disaster capitalism. It's like dropping a hurricane on the city you built in Sim City - all behind the screen- except you get payed for it and a troop of sycophants are all telling you how brilliant you are as the little ciphers scream and die.

KingSnake · Jul 23, 2019

Will Boris get his own Salzburg moment trying to negotiate with EU or will he just do nothing and go off the cliff in October?

Deleted member 31104 · Jul 23, 2019

Even by Boris's standards, that speech was utterly vacuous

CampFreddie · Jul 23, 2019

LibDems will be in a tight spot. They can potentially get votes from hardcore remain Labour voters (who think Corbyn isn't doing enough), or liberal (as opposed to conservative) Tories.
The problem is that appealing to one of these groups will be make them less appealing to the other. Most LibDem support comes from middle-class social-liberals, who would also be turned away if they went classical liberal to get Tory votes.

Flammable D said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_(Germany)

Weren't the centre party more like the Tories? They were a religious conservative party and nothing like what we call "centrism" in the UK.
But I guess they must have been centrists because the National Socialists were obviously the extreme left wing.

Jo Swinson's, "no coalitions" policy is hardly news either, nor is it going to lead to a Tory government. A confidence and supply agreement with Corbyn in exchange for anti-brexit policies is most likely. They'd probably block any attempt by Corbyn to "seize the means" or "eat the rich" but just attach a few liberal riders on his other policies to make it look like they are doing something.
Alligning with "liberal-Tory, call me Dave" Cameron almost destroyed the party and they would be crazy to try it again with a rabid right-winger like BoJo. I can't even see the LibDems doing even confidence and supply with the Tories since Boris is just not going to be proposing policies that LibDems can accept.

*Splinter · Jul 23, 2019

Lib Dems are distancing themselves from Corbyn to appeal to Tory voters. That's a good thing.

If they did the opposite we'd be complaining about them splitting the left vote and keeping the Tories in.

Deleted member 862 · Jul 23, 2019

CampFreddie said:
Jo Swinson's, "no coalitions" policy is hardly news either, nor is it going to lead to a Tory government. A confidence and supply agreement with Corbyn in exchange for anti-brexit policies is most likely. They'd probably block any attempt by Corbyn to "seize the means" or "eat the rich" but just attach a few liberal riders on his other policies to make it look like they are doing something.
Alligning with "liberal-Tory, call me Dave" Cameron almost destroyed the party and they would be crazy to try it again with a rabid right-winger like BoJo. I can't even see the LibDems doing even confidence and supply with the Tories since Boris is just not going to be proposing policies that LibDems can accept.

I'd love to know which Labour policies they're so opposed to, even the brexit policy is what they want now.

Theonik · Jul 23, 2019

To be honest. Every single remainer that votes LibDem deserves anything that happens to them.

Jraphics Horse · Jul 23, 2019

Theonik said:
To be honest. Every single remainer that votes LibDem deserves anything that happens to them.

Yeah I'd completely forgotten we'd scrapped FPTP

Theonik · Jul 23, 2019

Jraphics Horse said:
Yeah I'd completely forgotten we'd scrapped FPTP

EVERYONE.

Jraphics Horse · Jul 23, 2019

Theonik said:
EVERYONE.

I'm sure that'll work out great

Rodelero · Jul 23, 2019

Theonik said:
To be honest. Every single remainer that votes LibDem deserves anything that happens to them.

This is so childish it's unbelievable. Not only because there are such things as Lib Dem Tory marginals, but also because the Labour party continues to be a broadly unelectable shitshow. Politics isn't simple, there are flaws to all of the parties on offer and, in the end, every vote is a pretty massive compromise.

PJV3 · Jul 23, 2019

Theonik said:
To be honest. Every single remainer that votes LibDem deserves anything that happens to them.

I don't agree but i'm probably not going to vote tactically for them if Swinson carries on like this, she needs to cool it, it's not easy voting for them as it is.

Maledict · Jul 23, 2019

null said:
I'd love to know which Labour policies they're so opposed to, even the brexit policy is what they want now.

No it isn't.

Labour is not committed to a referendum. Labour's stated policy (until conference changes it) is for a referendum on any Tory deal (depending upon the deal). Labour's primary policy if it is in charge is to try to negotiate a better deal.

Lib Dem policy is for a referendum under any circumstance.

Deleted member 8463 · Jul 23, 2019

Philosophy Tube did a great 4 part series on capital L-Liberalism, its history and ideology

PJV3 · Jul 23, 2019

Maledict said:
No it isn't.

Labour is not committed to a referendum. Labour's stated policy (until conference changes it) is for a referendum on any Tory deal (depending upon the deal). Labour's primary policy if it is in charge is to try to negotiate a better deal.

Lib Dem policy is for a referendum under any circumstance.

I thought it shifted again to a referendum on a Labour deal but they might not campaign to remain if it satisfied Corbyn.

The last shift got a bit bogged down in arguments so I might have misunderstood to be honest.

Dirtyshubb · Jul 23, 2019

PJV3 said:
I thought it shifted again to a referendum on a Labour deal but they might not campaign to remain if it satisfied Corbyn.

The last shift got a bit bogged down in arguments so I might have misunderstood to be honest.

IIRC they would have a Ref on any deal, regardless of who got it but Labour would still try to get a deal first because they respect the result.

Deleted member 835 · Jul 23, 2019

KingSnake said:
Some of you in this thread almost every other day, mostly on things not even related to Brexit. It's quite interesting to witness actually. This actually links pretty well with the discussion about centrist earlier in this thread. There's more energy spent in vilifying the centre than in fighting the extreme right most of the time.

It's quite interesting to watch actually.

Imagine defending the libs, when you could be fighting the Tories instead.

Deleted member 862 · Jul 23, 2019

Maledict said:
No it isn't.

Labour is not committed to a referendum. Labour's stated policy (until conference changes it) is for a referendum on any Tory deal (depending upon the deal). Labour's primary policy if it is in charge is to try to negotiate a better deal.

Lib Dem policy is for a referendum under any circumstance.

https://labour.org.uk/latest/stories/labour-demands-brexit-public-vote/

Dirtyshubb said:
IIRC they would have a Ref on any deal, regardless of who got it but Labour would still try to get a deal first because they respect the result.

of course they'd try and negotiate a deal first otherwise how would you have a referendum?

plagiarize · Jul 23, 2019

My family are visiting me in the US this weekend. I'm hoping that Boris winning (and the inherent no deal risks that brings) was already priced into the currency market for their sake, but I guess we'll find out.

Maledict · Jul 23, 2019

null said:
https://labour.org.uk/latest/stories/labour-demands-brexit-public-vote/

of course they'd try and negotiate a deal first otherwise how would you have a referendum?

You're confusing separate things. As I said, labour is in favour of a referendum on a Tory deal. But it has not confirmed a referendum on a deal they made, not has it said what it would campaign for should that actually happen. Even for the referendum on the Tory deal it's not absolute / it says specifically one that harms jobs and goes against their tests.

Labour have spent a lot of time blurring the lines on this as much as they can, and it's made harder to understand party policy when different people at cabinet are saying different things.

DiGiKerot · Jul 23, 2019

plagiarize said:
My family are visiting me in the US this weekend. I'm hoping that Boris winning (and the inherent no deal risks that brings) was already priced into the currency market for their sake, but I guess we'll find out.

I'm heading off to the US literally tonight (and my hotel bill is due on checkout, which is... worrying), but I suspect that a lot of the immediate currency fluctuation has already occurred over the last few weeks - things have been comparatively stable today at least, so it's at least not as bad as that time I flew to the States two days after the Brexit referendum. That one hurt.

FSP · Jul 23, 2019

Git said:
Philosophy Tube did a great 4 part series on capital L-Liberalism, its history and ideology

Third video in that series has a picture of Thatcher as the thumbnail and the recommended reading list includes Marx and Lenin. "Liberalism" is not Conservatism with a smile on it's face!

I know Philosophy Tube is a well respected left-wing Youtuber, but it's not fair to go "here's a good discussion of Liberalism" when Yank Liberalism and Brit Liberalism are totally different, and a British Liberal hates Thatcher just as much as a British Socialist.

Deleted member 862 · Jul 23, 2019

Maledict said:
You're confusing separate things. As I said, labour is in favour of a referendum on a Tory deal. But it has not confirmed a referendum on a deal they made, not has it said what it would campaign for should that actually happen. Even for the referendum on the Tory deal it's not absolute / it says specifically one that harms jobs and goes against their tests.

Labour have spent a lot of time blurring the lines on this as much as they can, and it's made harder to understand party policy when different people at cabinet are saying different things.

They haven't confirmed it because as of right now we're not having an election where that's relevant. The shadow cabinet didn't vote on it for that reason but it was agreed by the party and unions and it's frankly ludicrous to think they expect a second vote on a Tory deal but no their own.

edit: really the only unanswered question is what does the party do when it's Labour deal vs remain. It's already been talked about that they'll probably do what Harold Wilson did in '75 and let MPs campaign however they want rather than taking a unified remain position like they would against a Tory deal.

PJV3 · Jul 23, 2019

Maledict said:
You're confusing separate things. As I said, labour is in favour of a referendum on a Tory deal. But it has not confirmed a referendum on a deal they made, not has it said what it would campaign for should that actually happen. Even for the referendum on the Tory deal it's not absolute / it says specifically one that harms jobs and goes against their tests.

Labour have spent a lot of time blurring the lines on this as much as they can, and it's made harder to understand party policy when different people at cabinet are saying different things.

Ah that's it, i knew it was a grey area, The labour deal isn't getting talked about ahead of an election, i doubt very much that he could avoid one anyway even if he manages to cross the numerous hurdles before then.

plagiarize · Jul 23, 2019

DiGiKerot said:
I'm heading off to the US literally tonight (and my hotel bill is due on checkout, which is... worrying), but I suspect that a lot of the immediate currency fluctuation has already occurred over the last few weeks - things have been comparatively stable today at least, so it's at least not as bad as that time I flew to the States two days after the Brexit referendum. That one hurt.

Yeah, looking at the markets today, it looks like this was already priced in. I visited the UK in the October after Brexit when the pound bottomed out (at least to date), and my dollars went a realllllly long way.

Goodlifr · Jul 23, 2019

Maledict said:
No it isn't.

Labour is not committed to a referendum. Labour's stated policy (until conference changes it) is for a referendum on any Tory deal (depending upon the deal). Labour's primary policy if it is in charge is to try to negotiate a better deal.

Lib Dem policy is for a referendum under any circumstance.

No, it's not

Deleted member 835 · Jul 23, 2019

Can't wait til Boris see's parliament is a mess and too divided to get anything done. No majority for no deal and no majority for deal and no majority to stop brexit...

Half of UK will be under water from global warming and UK will still be going on about Brexit.

PJV3 · Jul 23, 2019

Beefy said:
Can't wait til Boris see's parliament is a mess and too divided to get anything done. No majority for no deal and no majority for deal and no majority to stop brexit...

Half of UK will be under water from global warming and UK will still be going on about Brexit.

The referendum should have had a use by date attached.

Maledict · Jul 23, 2019

Goodlifr said:
No, it's not

This is literally stated labour policy. Until it is changed at conference it remains policy.

Again, it's a very confusing picture and it doesn't help when effectively Labour is not answering the question of their own deal and a referendum but waving it away. But right now labour is not committed to a referendum on any deal. Only a no-deal by the next PM or a bad Tory deal.

SMD · Jul 23, 2019

PJV3 said:
The referendum should have had a use by date attached.

As far as should have's go, it's low on the list.

The worst part is that people still give the Tories credibility.

Deleted member 8463 · Jul 23, 2019

Huw_Dawson said:
Third video in that series has a picture of Thatcher as the thumbnail and the recommended reading list includes Marx and Lenin. "Liberalism" is not Conservatism with a smile on it's face!

I know Philosophy Tube is a well respected left-wing Youtuber, but it's not fair to go "here's a good discussion of Liberalism" when Yank Liberalism and Brit Liberalism are totally different, and a British Liberal hates Thatcher just as much as a British Socialist.

Maybe watch the videos before trying to critique their content? The third video goes into neoliberalism, hence the picture of Thatcher. He also discusses the differences between British and American Liberalism.

FSP · Jul 23, 2019

Git said:
Maybe watch the videos before trying to critique their content? The third video goes into neoliberalism, hence the picture of Thatcher. He also discusses the differences between British and American Liberalism.

Did Thatcher or any of her contemporaries ever describe themselves as a neoliberal? 🤔

It's a buzzword that's been thrown around a lot, and it's used frustratingly often on the left by people who find it convenient to lump together social liberals (Paddy Ashdown) with economic liberals (a group you can charitably put Thatcher in).

It's a giant red flag, no pun intended, for over-simplification. I'd call the LDs many things, but Thatcherite isn't one of them.

I'm also allowed to get my back up when I see Lenin and Marx on a reading list for a set of discussions on Liberalism, unless the recommendation is based on recommending books to allow for an understanding of the historical critique of Liberalism.

PJV3 · Jul 23, 2019

SMD said:
As far as should have's go, it's low on the list.

The worst part is that people still give the Tories credibility.

i know, nobody could have predicted the vote for Brexit followed by the Tories fucking up the election, the result should have been binding or time limited, if Boris pulls off a deal it could be over 5 years from vote to leaving properly, it's pretty shitty for younger people.

ProstatePuncher · Jul 23, 2019

Huw_Dawson said:
Did Thatcher or any of her contemporaries ever describe themselves as a neoliberal? 🤔

It's a buzzword that's been thrown around a lot, and it's used frustratingly often on the left by people who find it convenient to lump together social liberals (Paddy Ashdown) with economic liberals (a group you can charitably put Thatcher in).

Just because you don't call yourself something doesn't mean you can't be it. Would someone like Trump admit or label himself a racist? Hell naw. He still toes that line, just like Thatcher strongly helped define neoliberalism.

Deleted member 8463 · Jul 23, 2019

Huw_Dawson said:
Did Thatcher or any of her contemporaries ever describe themselves as a neoliberal? 🤔

It's a buzzword that's been thrown around a lot, and it's used frustratingly often on the left by people who find it convenient to lump together social liberals (Paddy Ashdown) with economic liberals (a group you can charitably put Thatcher in).

It's a giant red flag, no pun intended, for over-simplification. I'd call the LDs many things, but Thatcherite isn't one of them.

I'm also allowed to get my back up when I see Lenin and Marx on a reading list for a set of discussions on Liberalism, unless the recommendation is based on recommending books to allow for an understanding of the historical critique of Liberalism.

Okay first, I'm gonna again tell you to watch the videos, I'm not going to summarise them when it'll be faster for you to just watch them.

It's an old term, it's been around for ages and its meaning is well established. It's not a buzzword, however much you want it to be.

He doesn't make that oversimplification. I wouldn't call all LDs Thatcherite, although many of them will be for economic policies.

The readings collect over the videos, and there's a bigger references section. The Marx and Lenin readings are there because he goes into historic alternatives to capitalism.

Deleted member 835 · Jul 23, 2019

Jo Swinson loves Thatcher... she is now leader of Libs..

PJV3 · Jul 23, 2019

Beefy said:
Jo Swinson loves Thatcher... she is now leader of Libs..

To be fair it's mostly about women having power, even though Thatcher didn't rate women much herself.
I'm more bothered by her support for shitty standards for employees etc, and other shit she voted for.

Gernau Morat Gurgeh · Jul 23, 2019

PJV3 said:
To be fair it's mostly about women having power, even though Thatcher didn't rate women much herself.
I'm more bothered by her support for shitty standards for employees etc, and other shit she voted for.

Yeah, I think Swinson's voting record speaks for itself.

Deleted member 835 · Jul 23, 2019

PJV3 said:
To be fair it's mostly about women having power, even though Thatcher didn't rate women much herself.
I'm more bothered by her support for shitty standards for employees etc, and other shit she voted for.

Adds to her shit voting record

Deleted member 8463 · Jul 23, 2019

Beefy said:
Jo Swinson loves Thatcher... she is now leader of Libs..

The statue thing was bleakly hilarious. But thankfully we can look at her voting record to see that she is pretty Thatcherite aye. Voted 11 times for bedroom tax.

jelly · Jul 23, 2019

Jo Swinson will sell out every time, I know that could be said of most politicians but you can just tell she is cooling her jets as a politician until the big money rolls around. That voting record is bad but hello baroness down the line, it's like credits.

LIb Dems are seen like the Tories with a possible outline of a soul when it suits them. Some voters with a nice lifestyle and a conscious that can't quite go Tory but happy to go Lib Dem as little will change for them.

Deleted member 8463 · Jul 23, 2019

Hates fracking, but okay with taking donations from fracking. This is okay because that donor also has windfarms.

Deleted member 31104 · Jul 23, 2019

Huw_Dawson said:
Did Thatcher or any of her contemporaries ever describe themselves as a neoliberal? 🤔

It's a buzzword that's been thrown around a lot, and it's used frustratingly often on the left by people who find it convenient to lump together social liberals (Paddy Ashdown) with economic liberals (a group you can charitably put Thatcher in).

It's a giant red flag, no pun intended, for over-simplification. I'd call the LDs many things, but Thatcherite isn't one of them.

I'm also allowed to get my back up when I see Lenin and Marx on a reading list for a set of discussions on Liberalism, unless the recommendation is based on recommending books to allow for an understanding of the historical critique of Liberalism.

Neoliberalism is now a buzz word, but Thatcher and Regan were the poster folk for the neoliberal Chicago School of Economics, Friedman inspired dreck which is modern neoliberalism.

Atrophis · Jul 23, 2019

In my experience the only people who get worked up about neoliberalism being a thing are neolibs who dont like being called out...

SMD · Jul 23, 2019

Huw_Dawson said:
Did Thatcher or any of her contemporaries ever describe themselves as a neoliberal? 🤔

It's a buzzword that's been thrown around a lot, and it's used frustratingly often on the left by people who find it convenient to lump together social liberals (Paddy Ashdown) with economic liberals (a group you can charitably put Thatcher in).

It's a giant red flag, no pun intended, for over-simplification. I'd call the LDs many things, but Thatcherite isn't one of them.

I'm also allowed to get my back up when I see Lenin and Marx on a reading list for a set of discussions on Liberalism, unless the recommendation is based on recommending books to allow for an understanding of the historical critique of Liberalism.

Neoliberal is a slur

Atrophis · Jul 23, 2019

If anyone wants to bash their head against a wall in frustration, get BBC2 on and listen to a "working class" Tory blame all the problems in this country on "middle class lefties" rather than the Tory elites he voted in.

Antrax · Jul 23, 2019

Flammable D said:
explicitly rule out a Labour coalition only.

I mean, they're learning. The last coalition they formed that sold out their voters cost them massively. Now that their current base is clearly pro-Remain, they'd certainly lose support if they came out now to support a pro-Leave party/govt.

At best, they'll form up with the SNP et al and let Corbyn be PM as long as he gives up on Leave.

Salty_Josh · Jul 23, 2019

Just gonna chime in here and say that green are also anti brexit like libdems without being watered down Tories. Also they aren't fucking around shooting themselves in the foot like labour.

BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson

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