BREXIT |OT2.0| No thread is better than a bad thread

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
424
Jo Swinson, whose voting record is pro austerity, anti environment, pro tuition fees, even voted for the Bedroom tax, FFS even voted against taxs on banker bonuses, is another fraud in a long line of charlatans among the lib dems. Of course she would never support the only leader possible for a unity government in Corbyn.

The idea that anyone other than the leader of the biggest opposition party would not be the leader of a unity government is just preposterous.

The Lib dems don't care about anything other than getting more power. The reason there will not be a unity government is the lib dems are just a bunch of liars and scam artists. Jo Swinson in particular is just a con woman and a liar. She even voted for the pay cap on public sector workers while voted against an increase on income tax on wealthy people, and even fucking voted against increasing tax on bankers bonuses. Swinson is more Tory than some Tories. She's just another fraud, who hates regular people, doesn't care about Brexit and will say or do anything for power.
My God, we get it. I’m a Labour voter through and through, have only ever voted for them. I don’t even mind Corbyn, but this insistence that just because he’s the leader of the biggest op party, that he’s the ONLY option for leader of a temp, implicitly created for one goal, unity gove, is absolutely ridiculous. As has been quite clearly pointed out to you already, there are plenty of reasons why Corbyn risks the success of a unity gove, and why someone else, without his “baggage” is far more suited.

This isn’t a Labour gove we’re seeking, it is a gove, with a singular focus, to prevent one of the most horrifically damaging things that can happen to this country in a lifetime. It doesn’t matter who supports this gove, and what they previously voted to support, the ONLY thing that matters is that they enable it to happen, so that the single implicit goal of the gove is successful and we can actually work to a longer term solution in a 2nd ref, and GE.

There isn’t the time to faff about going “BUT THEY’RE NOT REALLY LEFTIST BUT TORIES!!” as again, the ONLY goal of a unity gove, is to prevent No Deal Brexit and ensure a 2nd ref/GE.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,594
Why is the discussion turning to whether Corbyn should/shoud not lead the unity government like it was the main issue we're facing?
The chances of a unity government happening are really low, and I don't think anyone high-up in Labour has said anything of substance regarding what they thought about it?
The only thing someone with actual chickens in the race has said was Swinson's declaration on how Corbyn is a bad man. And suddenly everyone is fighting about how bad Corbyn really is.
It all seems pretty nonsensical to me.
 

Sleuth

Member
Jul 18, 2019
107
My God, we get it. I’m a Labour voter through and through, have only ever voted for them. I don’t even mind Corbyn, but this insistence that just because he’s the leader of the biggest op party, that he’s the ONLY option for leader of a temp, implicitly created for one goal, unity gove, is absolutely ridiculous. As has been quite clearly pointed out to you already, there are plenty of reasons why Corbyn risks the success of a unity gove, and why someone else, without his “baggage” is far more suited.

This isn’t a Labour gove we’re seeking, it is a gove, with a singular focus, to prevent one of the most horrifically damaging things that can happen to this country in a lifetime. It doesn’t matter who supports this gove, and what they previously voted to support, the ONLY thing that matters is that they enable it to happen, so that the single implicit goal of the gove is successful and we can actually work to a longer term solution in a 2nd ref, and GE.

There isn’t the time to faff about going “BUT THEY’RE NOT REALLY LEFTIST BUT TORIES!!” as again, the ONLY goal of a unity gove, is to prevent No Deal Brexit and ensure a 2nd ref/GE.
Criticising Jo Swinson on the internet is not going to magically stop a potential unity government from happening. What a bizarre leap to make. And now is absolutely the time, even if it makes some lib dem supporters lose their cool.

And its not about calling her a Tory, its about her being a liar who seems more interested in power than stopping no deal.

Is publically attacking Jeremy Corbyn, going to make a unity government more likely? Of course not. But it might increase votes for Lib Dems. Which goes back to the point she is a known liar, who seems far more interested in getting more power than stopping no deal. In the interest of stopping no deal, Swinson should be trying to work with Corbyn, obviously, not playing politics to increase lib dem votes.

Its one thing to vote for Austerity, and vote for cuts, vote for the wealthy, vote against the environment, vote in favor of corporations and banks, its another thing to lie about it over and over, right to people's faces.
 
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Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
424
Criticising Jo Swinson on the internet is not going to magically stop a potential unity government from happening. What a bizarre leap to make. And now is absolutely the time, even if it makes some lib dem supporters lose their cool.

And its not about calling her a Tory, its about her being a liar who seems more interested in power than stopping no deal.

Is publically attacking Jeremy Corbyn, going to make a unity government more likely? Of course not. But it might increase votes for Lib Dems. Which goes back to the point she is a known liar, who seems far more interested in getting more power than stopping no deal. In the interest of stopping no deal, Swinson should be trying to work with Corbyn, obviously, not playing politics to increase lib dem votes.

Its one thing to vote for Austerity, and vote for cuts, vote for the wealthy, vote against the environment, vote in favor of corporations and banks, its another thing to lie about it over and over, right to people's faces.
You were criticising Jo Swinson, and I agree with pretty much everything you say about her. That said, you’re now switching the context of your own post. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jo Swinson and her credentials. The context is whether it is worth arguing over who leads a unity gove, and as already stated, it is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is they get as much support across the house as possible. Corbyn is toxic to that goal, wrongly or rightly, so someone who isn’t, is better suited.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,870
The fact is that most Corbyn supporters here don't really care about Brexit, somehow quietly thinking it will turn out into a labour paradise afterwards, so the whole argument is pointless. They don't really believe an unity government is needed.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,978
Seeing some MPs talking about retrospective legislation after no deal crash.
Completely ignoring that once the UK is out there’s no more article 50 and only article 49.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,046
London
The fact is that most Corbyn supporters here don't really care about Brexit, somehow quietly thinking it will turn out into a labour paradise afterwards, so the whole argument is pointless. They don't really believe an unity government is needed.
I don't think this is entirely fair. It's not that they don't care, it's just secondary in their view to getting a Labour government. There's also a not totally unfounded suspicion that a lot of the centrist remain campaign have also been using the issue to try and get rid of Corbyn instead of just focusing on stopping no deal/Brexit.

I think they should re-prioritise to stopping Brexit first and ignore the centrists because I don't think any Labour government could make up for the damage caused but after almost 10 years of Tory austerity and the immense suffering caused I can see why it's so important to the Corbyn supporters here.

On the actual topic of a unity government, I'm really coming round to the idea that Corbyn and Labour should absolutely let someone else, preferably a Tory, but LD or Caroline Lucas if necessary, be the figurehead for this short-term government. It'll earn them some credit from remainers and If there's a leaver backlash to stopping no deal it'll mostly hit the figurehead, and if it's a Tory like Ken Clarke or Dominic Grieve then it'll hurt the Tories the most. There's also poetic justice in a Tory having to fall on the sword of stopping this Tory created shitshow.
 

Beefy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,011
Man this thread is just dudes arguing now.

Tories: immigrant and poor killing wastes. Racist as fuck.

Lib Dems: supported the Tories through all the shit they did. Lib Dems leaders voting record is 100% Tory. They come off to me as Tory lite. Only thing that is positive about them is they are pro remain.

Labour: Leader that is pro Brexit. Leader that has been fucked over by the press but sometimes doesn't help himself. Then you have the antisemitism and the New Labour dickheads making it even worse.

All these parties for me as a black immigrant aren't worth voting for.
 

RellikSK

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,331
Man this thread is just dudes arguing now.

Tories: immigrant and poor killing wastes. Racist as fuck.

Lib Dems: supported the Tories through all the shit they did. Lib Dems leaders voting record is 100% Tory. They come off to me as Tory lite. Only thing that is positive about them is they are pro remain.

Labour: Leader that is pro Brexit. Leader that has been fucked over by the press but sometimes doesn't help himself. Then you have the antisemitism and the New Labour dickheads making it even worse.

All these parties for me as a black immigrant aren't worth voting for.
I get really jealous of other EU countries who have Green MPs who are a viable option.
 

Anton

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
379
Can only hope that after having several hung parliaments we finally get electoral voting reform in our lifetimes
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,778
Lot of white women... most diverse cabinet ever
To some people the only thing they think of when it comes to diversity is gender.

Seen it at graduate recruiter events when diversity is brought up and they focus solely on gender. Even had one guy on stage say in regards to ethnicity that he thinks 'the best person should get the job' which clearly meant he didn't give a fuck about increasing Bame representation.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,101
Nothing says unity like arbitrarily excluding groups based not on politics but on gender. God we have some shit politicians in this country, right across the board.
 

Garfield

Member
Oct 31, 2018
1,086
All this talk about a unity Gov are simply playing into Johnson’s hands... all Tory MPs view power above all else, voting against their own to stop a no deal is just that, not one of them would want Labour et al to gain power
 

Gawge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
477
I don’t understand how a government comprised entirely of white women who voted for Remain in 2016 is a “Unity” government.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
Yeah, it's turnips for christmas, the "remain side" is fucking batshit insane, it's a different fucking planet in Westminster.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,978
All this talk about a unity government. If european politics in the last 20 years have shown anything its that unity governments only survive when all members are technocrats.

Anything else and the government will go down to infighting.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
Seemingly every side and/or party has been hit by a dose of insanity.

The SNP have been reasonably sensible in terms of not ruling out anything that will stop No Deal, but we'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks.
Completely outrageous, it's almost like they realise the options are severely limited, I don't want any of that kind of sensible thinking this side of the border thank you very much.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
Seemingly every side and/or party has been hit by a dose of insanity.

The SNP have been reasonably sensible in terms of not ruling out anything that will stop No Deal, but we'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks.
We'll just gloss over the fact it's a proposed government of national unity that includes someone who wants independence. Not sure how much credibility that brings to the situation.
 
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Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,778
I feel like somewhere along the road you have completely lost sight of what a unity government is.

What stands in the way of a unity government lead by Corbyn?
Disliked by many independents
Disliked by many of the key Conservative rebels
Disliked by many of the key potential Labour rebels
Disliked by the Liberal Democrats
Disliked by most of the country

What stands in the way of a unity government lead by someone broadly respected (e.g. Clarke, Cooper, Benn, Hermon, Grieve)?
Corbyn and a small group of stubborn Labour MPs

Wake the fuck up. You aren't going to suceed in gaslighting the nation that the Liberal Democrats are responsible.



It's incredible that you would point at the Liberal Democrats as power hungry while defending the notion that Corbyn might point blank refuse to allow anyone but himself to lead a unity government.

As for Swinson's record, I'm not going to defend it because I don't agree with it in most places.

I have a degree of understanding for some of the votes made during the coalition government, and I don't hold the coalition against the Liberal Democrats to the extent most of you do. It's not the government I'd have chosen, but I'm quite tolerant of the notion of political compromise as it's something natural to more proportional voting systems, something I want, and the Liberal Democrats want, and Labour does not. For what it's worth, there are aspects of the Liberal Democrat record in coalition that are unfairly criticised. The most obvious is tuition fees, and the rage against that change is illustrative of how many in this country are happy to take a very strong stance on something they don't remotely understand.

In the end I'm content to vote for a Liberal Democrat in the constituency I live in. They're nowhere near perfect and I'm significantly more left wing than they are. What I will not buy however is this notion that Corbyn good Swinson bad, Labour good Lib Dem bad. It's juvenile as all hell and it is getting this country nowhere. It's always, always, always someone else's fault with you lot.
Good post!
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
It's amazing how Clarke ended up being broadly respected, his record at the health department should be enough to stop that idea.
I can see why some despise the political class.
 

*Splinter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
Well it'll be great then to see tribal politics leading to a No Deal brexit.

Genuinely, if there's an opportunity for a Unity government and Corbyn fucks it then he's dead politically.
So Lib Dems refusing to work with Corbyn would be Corbyn's fault, and Corbyn refusing to work with Cooper would be Corbyn's fault.
 
OP
OP
Uzzy

Uzzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,564
Cummings might not be a political genius, but he won't have to be to beat this shower of remainers. We're gonna crash out on October 31st and this lot are arguing over who should put the extension request in, fucking hell.

That's all a Government of National Unity needs to do. Pick a PM, send them to Brussels, get the request approved. Then they can disband to fight over what to do next. That's all we need, but the remain side are squabbling like infants in the face of it. Hard not to despair.
 

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,676
Cummings might not be a political genius, but he won't have to be to beat this shower of remainers. We're gonna crash out on October 31st and this lot are arguing over who should put the extension request in, fucking hell.
I really don't know about it. Boris' latest moves make me think he's bluffing hard.

To that point, the latest plan is basically a very basic rewrite of May's no deal scenario: enforcing EU regulations while being out of the EU to ensure the flow of goods towards the country.

I can see him begging for a extension while keeping a stern face. The real question is if the EU will accept it, given that some member states have already written off the UK and others don't care that much.
 

Goodlifr

Member
Nov 6, 2017
867
Cummings might not be a political genius, but he won't have to be to beat this shower of remainers. We're gonna crash out on October 31st and this lot are arguing over who should put the extension request in, fucking hell.

That's all a Government of National Unity needs to do. Pick a PM, send them to Brussels, get the request approved. Then they can disband to fight over what to do next. That's all we need, but the remain side are squabbling like infants in the face of it. Hard not to despair.
Why do you need a national government of unity to do that?
Just vote for the opposition in a VONC then lend your vote if they need the numbers.

You can much them out after if you want
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,340
There are a significant number of tories who believe that Corbyn as PM, if only for a short amount of time, would be worse than brexit. And as dumb as that seems it’s what we have to work with.

You need someone who has no political career or future but who is highly regarded by the commons to do it. Either from the commons or the house.
 
OP
OP
Uzzy

Uzzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,564
Why do you need a national government of unity to do that?
Just vote for the opposition in a VONC then lend your vote if they need the numbers.

You can much them out after if you want
You don't. Call it whatever you want, a GONU, a minority administration, a coalition, a one day 'I can't believe it's not a government' government or whatever. Point is that the Remainers aren't going to do what it takes to stop the no deal Brexit we're looking at. They each have their reasons, but you look at the other side and you can see exactly what the no dealers are willing to do to get their way, and they're winning because of it.
 
OP
OP
Uzzy

Uzzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,564
I really don't know about it. Boris' latest moves make me think he's bluffing hard.

To that point, the latest plan is basically a very basic rewrite of May's no deal scenario: enforcing EU regulations while being out of the EU to ensure the flow of goods towards the country.

I can see him begging for a extension while keeping a stern face. The real question is if the EU will accept it, given that some member states have already written off the UK and others don't care that much.
He won't. He won't survive the election to come if he begs for an extension. The Tory Party's survival depends on it now. That's the priority.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
There are a significant number of tories who believe that Corbyn as PM, if only for a short amount of time, would be worse than brexit. And as dumb as that seems it’s what we have to work with.

You need someone who has no political career or future but who is highly regarded by the commons to do it. Either from the commons or the house.


The idea of a very controlled and acceptable to conservatives unity government is up there with the cabinet of women in daftness levels.

Just concentrate on bringing the government down and then people can put their money where their mouth is on Brexit.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,870
The idea of a very controlled and acceptable to conservatives unity government is up there with the cabinet of women in daftness levels.

Just concentrate on bringing the government down and then people can put their money where their mouth is on Brexit.
Just bringing the government down doesn't stop the Brexit no deal train.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
Just bringing the government down doesn't stop the Brexit no deal train.
I know, but first things first.
Pretending the leader of the opposition doesn't exist and is against the idea of a unity government isn't going to lead anywhere either.

If some tories want to burn bridges then they can at least prove they have the fire.