BREXIT |OT2.0| No thread is better than a bad thread

danowat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,499
John Bolton absolutely despises a multipolar world and probably wants Brexit because it makes the UK more manipulable and the EU weaker.

I mean, I joke a lot about Brexit, but if the UK goes belly up and splits, the EU is going to find itself in some dire straits retaining certain competencies in terms of defence, particularly in Northern waters.

People who want to stay safe should probably run in his opposite direction.
Exactly, which is why both Russia and the US have a vested interest in a no deal Brexit, a weaker EU and a weaker UK is win win for the big players.

John Bolton is a warmongering madman.
 

Commit Completely

Alt account
Banned
Aug 6, 2019
18

They hate Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn. They no longer trust the BBC. They love civil servants, legal experts and James O’Brien. And now, consumed by the battle against Brexit, hardcore remainers are no longer the moderates.
Shame it doesn’t go in to the role The Guardian played in this.
 

plagiarize

Untethered once more
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
7,792
Cape Cod, MA
Exactly, which is why both Russia and the US have a vested interest in a no deal Brexit, a weaker EU and a weaker UK is win win for the big players.

John Bolton is a warmongering madman.
And making the UK a vassel state of the US is clearly to the benefit of the US.

Im exaggerating somewhat, but no more so than leavers who like to throw around the 'vassel state' phrase.
 

danowat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,499
And making the UK a vassel state of the US is clearly to the benefit of the US.

Im exaggerating somewhat, but no more so than leavers who like to throw around the 'vassel state' phrase.
They just want a political pawn to push around and legitimize their agenda, they'll want us to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal, they'll want us to push back from our relationship with China, I am sure they'll also posture pulling out of the UN and NATO at some point, and will want us to follow suit.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459



Shame it doesn’t go in to the role The Guardian played in this.
It's been clear for a long time that the FBPE types were just as mental as the brexiteers. These people need to be kept as far away from another referendum as possible because the whole thing is dripping in middle-class privilege that isn't going to convince anyone to change their mind.

They light up at any mention of the 2012 Olympics. They wonder what Orwell would have made of all this. They hang the EU flag in their windows. (There is a group of remainists who call themselves EU Flag Mafia, and perform stunts such as hanging dozens of flags from poles in the sea off Southend, like a gang of centrist situationists.)
Before the referendum, many of the people who have become remainists considered themselves immune to the passions of politics. They tended to hover around the centre ground and didn’t strongly identify with any party. They were used to being on the inside, to being listened to. But since 23 June 2016, remainists have found themselves out in the cold. “I just felt everything I believed in was stolen from me,” Angela Ramsall, a prominent anti-Brexit voice
Remainists tend to put their faith not in politicians, but in bureaucrats and civil servants. But they make an exception for those MPs, such as Dominic Grieve or Yvette Cooper (even though she doesn’t back a second referendum)
Halfway down the train, I started talking to Finbarr O’Halloran, a warm, rosy-cheeked man who was carrying a Led by Donkeys placard. His story was a textbook case of remainist radicalisation. “I’d been fairly apolitical throughout my life, just letting them get on with it as long as the country was run in a reasonably sensible manner,” he told me. “And it’s only the craziness of Brexit that’s made me mad.”
Remainists are the kind of people who used to rely on the BBC, and defend it against attacks from the left and right. Now they feel it is just one more institution that has failed them. So they have to look elsewhere – and, in many cases, Twitter has filled that void.
Within the remainist ecosystem, O’Brien is simultaneously the star pupil, the most popular kid in class and the playground bully: remainists worship him for the way he shreds leavers’ arguments. As his impatience mounts, he drops his head in his hands – a pose that encapsulates how it feels to be a remainist today. “Can we all agree that it’s time to rename remain and leave?” he tweeted earlier this year. “I suggest right and wrong.”
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,820
Re - that article: while I agree that there is definitely an element of obnoxious remainer types on twitter, I feel that that article is trying extremely hard to make a false equivalency stick. Unless you believe that remain and leave are just equivalent, unimportant opinions, there is a right and a wrong position. Furthermore, the remainers, even the most obnoxious ones, have not been calling their opponents literal traitors to the nation, saboteurs that need to be crushed and absolutely dismissing all evidence to the contrary of their position since day 1. Now, it's certainly true that there is a remain contingent that doesn't want to acknowledge the role played by government policy in creating the conditions for Brexit (lib dems, remain Tory's and elements of the labour party - I'm looking at you), and that is a real problem.
 

RedSparrows

Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,479
It smacks yet again of groups being more keen on kicking the centre than anyone else, and being conspicuously unable to convince enough people of their own brilliance. Cough cough. Even if some Remainers are of course fucking morons.
 

Commit Completely

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Aug 6, 2019
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"Both sides have their share of twats" is accurate. But only one side's twats are actually dangerous.
Hardcore remain people are dangerous in their own way from the perspective of actually stopping no deal or effectively campaigning for remain to win an eventual referendum. They’d gladly take a no deal vs remain referendum and their totally inability to understand what lead to people voting to leave in the first place could absolutely fuck up any chance remain has of winning.
Just because they’re not bloodthirsty ghouls like the hardcore Brexit people doesn’t mean they can’t be dangerous.
 

theaface

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,010
After the last 9 years of disastrous Tory rule, I should be rubbing my hands together in giddy anticipation at a likely GE soon. Instead, I have a sinking feeling of dread and despair.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,866
It's nice to see that once again the war that matters is against the people supporting remain and not against the ones who are actually accelerating on the path to No deal.

I guess it's nice to sit on the side waiting for the disaster just to be able to get into power afterwards.
 

Commit Completely

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Banned
Aug 6, 2019
18
It's nice to see that once again the war that matters is against the people supporting remain and not against the ones who are actually accelerating on the path to No deal.

I guess it's nice to sit on the side waiting for the disaster just to be able to get into power afterwards.
This ignores that the tactics and rhetoric from these people actually have a very real chance of damaging the opportunity to remain or at least avoid leaving without a deal. They are not beyond criticism just because they support remain.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,866
This ignores that the tactics and rhetoric from these people actually have a very real chance of damaging the opportunity to remain or at least avoid leaving without a deal. They are not beyond criticism just because they support remain.
At this point the only chance to avoid No Deal is to kick out Boris and get a new government as soon as possible that can ask for an extension and organize elections and/or a new referendum. Anything other than that is rather on the fantasy side.

Edit: also, the more the window of opportunity for that closes, the more people who are afraid about the No Deal outcome will radicalize. You can't expect to have a normal conversation in a burning house.
 

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,673
I believe he's bluffing because nobody can be that much of an idiot, and I don't think Boris is an absolute cretin as he pretends to be.

Although arrogance and a misplaced sense of self-worth have gotten much better men.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,706

It looks like Bolton has taken Boris to the cleaners.
Those so called US think tanks, special interests etc. have had claws in many people who are now in government for a long time, it's disgusting.

It's funny how useless the UK is, everything depends on others, EU sort this out for us, America, please help, everyone else, let's just roll over those EU trade deals, commonwealth who? Are they hoping nobody notices they have no clothes?

I suppose brown envelopes from a few corps, US interest groups to some Tory politicians will do to sell us down the river.

It's insane people are honestly kinda whatever about this mess. We are been taken to the cleaners.
 

Salty_Josh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,834
Those so called US think tanks, special interests etc. have had claws in many people who are now in government for a long time, it's disgusting.

It's funny how useless the UK is, everything depends on others, EU sort this out for us, America, please help, everyone else, let's just roll over those EU trade deals, commonwealth who? Are they hoping nobody notices they have no clothes?

I suppose brown envelopes from a few corps, US interest groups to some Tory politicians will do to sell us down the river.

It's insane people are honestly kinda whatever about this mess. We are been taken to the cleaners.
That's the price we have to pay to take back control
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,866
I believe he's bluffing because nobody can be that much of an idiot, and I don't think Boris is an absolute cretin as he pretends to be.

Although arrogance and a misplaced sense of self-worth have gotten much better men.
A rational person would be surely bluffing in this situation, but then he will be history as soon as he caves in and asks for an extension since his whole leadership campaign was about going out in October, so I'm not so sure. He cares about himself and power even more than May.
 

Gawge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
477
Yeah, an excellent article.

It smacks yet again of groups being more keen on kicking the centre than anyone else, and being conspicuously unable to convince enough people of their own brilliance. Cough cough. Even if some Remainers are of course fucking morons.
I think it's just that the centre aren't very used to being criticised, since this is one of the first times any of them have actually held any firm opinions, or cared strongly about any particular cause.
 

Git

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,128
It's been clear for a long time that the FBPE types were just as mental as the brexiteers. These people need to be kept as far away from another referendum as possible because the whole thing is dripping in middle-class privilege that isn't going to convince anyone to change their mind.
Article succinctly describes my problem with many of the FBPE types, who are proud to tell you they were 'apolitical' (lol) before the referendum in 2016. Like, if six years of austerity just flew by you completely unnoticed, I don't really give a fuck what you think about brexit.
 

Commit Completely

Alt account
Banned
Aug 6, 2019
18
Article succinctly describes my problem with many of the FBPE types, who are proud to tell you they were 'apolitical' (lol) before the referendum in 2016. Like, if six years of austerity just flew by you completely unnoticed, I don't really give a fuck what you think about brexit.
This is exactly why these people are actively dangerous to the prospect of getting a second referendum result which cancels Brexit or at least means we avoid no deal. They just won’t engage with the issues which led to it happening in the first place, and without doing that we’re pretty much doomed to repeat that result.
 

repeater

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,117
I think it's just that the centre aren't very used to being criticised, since this is one of the first times any of them have actually held any firm opinions, or cared strongly about any particular cause.
That seems to be true for some of the people who were interviewed for the article, who were (by their own admission) not very politically active or interested before Brexit. As a general claim about "the centre" it's of course incorrect.
 

Git

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,128
This is exactly why these people are actively dangerous to the prospect of getting a second referendum result which cancels Brexit or at least means we avoid no deal. They just won’t engage with the issues which led to it happening in the first place, and without doing that we’re pretty much doomed to repeat that result.
Yep, this is why putting Brexit ahead of everything else will cause them to fail in the event of another referendum. I think a lot of remainers are uninterested in the causes of people voting to leave, aside from people being lied to.
It's telling that their halcyon beacon of hope is the 2012 olympics. A time when the country was already deep in the shit.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,866
People who still think they had legit reasons to vote leave would deserve to live through a No Deal. Unfortunately a lot of other people would suffer from it.
 
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PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
I know i'm stating the obvious but i would just like to mention how pathetic Amber Rudd looks today, jesus wept.
If it goes tits up in November she should just hide on a rock in the Atlantic or something.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,213

UK thinks it's more important than the integrity of the Single Market. GTFOH
It's so shitty that we're actually putting the safety and lives of people at the border and wider island as a bargaining chip that we hope the EU will fold over.

This is exactly why these people are actively dangerous to the prospect of getting a second referendum result which cancels Brexit or at least means we avoid no deal. They just won’t engage with the issues which led to it happening in the first place, and without doing that we’re pretty much doomed to repeat that result.
Which I suppose was what Corbyn and his team was trying to go for with their talking points focusing on austerity in the couple years after the referendum. But it fell on deaf ears around the room, even on the people they were trying to target.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
oh good Tom Watson is back. Never one to miss an opportunity to trash his own party.

Speaking alongside Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson at an event in central London on Tuesday, Mr Watson said that those in parliament opposed to Boris Johnson’s position to leave the EU on October 31, with or without a deal, should put aside their differences and collaborate across party lines this autumn.
Ms Swinson, who was elected leader of the Lib Dems last month, said she was similarly “committed to working with others across party lines in parliament to stop no-deal Brexit”. “This is no time for tribalism. That is why I am pleased to be here today with Tom to show that there is a desire across the political spectrum to stop Boris Johnson’s reckless no-deal Brexit plan and instead deliver a brighter future inside the EU.”
But Ms Swinson and other senior Liberal Democrats have categorically ruled out working with Mr Corbyn, citing his past record as a supporter of Brexit as a reason he cannot be trusted. Without the support of the party’s 13 MPs, Labour would not be able to command the confidence of the House of Commons. “There are plenty of people in the Labour party that I can work with, that I do work with. But Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiter. He cannot be trusted on Brexit. That is abundantly clear,” Ms Swinson said last month.
"This is no time for tribalism but I'm not working with that guy!"
 
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Lo-Volt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,465
New Yawk City!
“Ramsay McWatson” is probably the nastiest thing Labour could call him considering they’re referring to Ramsay MacDonald. Labour’s first-ever prime minister, but also an adherent to a Conservative-leaning national government when most of the party entered opposition. That’s very much a stay-in-your-lane message from Corbyn’s office.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,953
Thing is it's neither of those, but is closer to the former than the latter.

MPs are supposed to be elected to do what is best for the country and their constituents, regardless of whether that's what their constituents want (Take Brexit as a prime example of this. MPs should be against it since Brexit is absolutely not best for the country and their constituents, even if their constituency is massively leave supporting)
 

Beefy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,011
Thing is it's neither of those, but is closer to the former than the latter.

MPs are supposed to be elected to do what is best for the country and their constituents, regardless of whether that's what their constituents want (Take Brexit as a prime example of this. MPs should be against it since Brexit is absolutely not best for the country and their constituents, even if their constituency is massively leave supporting)
Yeah, problem is that 80% of MPs are probably 70% Brexit lovers like Hoey.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,953
Yeah, problem is that 80% of MPs are probably 70% Brexit lovers like Hoey.
Because they stand to earn money from it.

MPs should be banned from having any other source of income as they're otherwise just far too open to making decisions based on their personal interests. It's not like an MP salary + expenses isn't more than enough to live very comfortably on.
 
OP
OP
Uzzy

Uzzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,560
21 Tory MP's have written to Boris demanding reassurances that he won't go for no deal, and that he recognises the need for compromise. Only source is the Sun, but here's the twitter post about it.


There's a few names missing from the list who have been notably against no deal as well, such as Grieve, Lee and Clarke. So there's numbers there to make life awkward for Boris.