BREXIT |OT2.0| No thread is better than a bad thread

Beefy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,011
Because they stand to earn money from it.

MPs should be banned from having any other source of income as they're otherwise just far too open to making decisions based on their personal interests. It's not like an MP salary + expenses isn't more than enough to live very comfortably on.
Yep, I agree with that.
 

nature boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,802


oh good Tom Watson is back. Never one to miss an opportunity to trash his own party.
"This is no time for tribalism but I'm not working with that guy!"
The problem is Corbyn wants Brexit to happen, he just doesn't want the tax haven US protectorate model. I don't blame other politicians being highly suspicious of him as a potential PM.
And I strictly talking about Brexit, not other policies where the disagreement is even more intense
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
"This is no time for tribalism but I'm not working with that guy!"
Liberals; don't accept referendum results, don't accept the choice of labour party members, don't accept the result of the general election that made Corbyn leader of the opposition, I think they are on some kind of mission to increase the brexit vote through sheer arrogance.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,706
Liberals; don't accept referendum results, don't accept the choice of labour party members, don't accept the result of the general election that made Corbyn leader of the opposition, I think they are on some kind of mission to increase the brexit vote through sheer arrogance.
Couldn't organise a pIss up in a brewery comes to mind.
 

nature boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,802
I know it doesn't really matter what Trump says, congress will decide how it goes. Everyone Ian talking nonsense, jump out this plane, I will get around to packing your parachute....maybe.
True but the administration will negotiate a deal without Congress and submit it in an almost take it out leave it approach ala NAFTA 2.0.

Odds of a trade deal actually being in effect in the next 5 years? Zero
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,706
Yeah and they were talking about doing it sector by sector recently so you don't have to wait for one big deal. It's all bollocks, just giving us enough rope to do a stupid thing. Trump might not even be in office by then anyway. Ugh, make it stop.
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,778
I don't say this often, but this is one of those times where I agree with the public 'at large'.

MPs should reflect the general views of their constituents - they've been elected to serve them in a representative democracy.

Of course, it's 2019, so I realise how horrible that can be in certain areas.

(Although if my local MP ever bothered to show their face then they'd probably be a far different MP than they currently are!)

Edit: And this trade deal talk is nonsense. Yes, it'd be fantastic if we get a good deal with any country post-no-deal-cliff-edge-shitxit, but it won't offset the loss of trade and the need to renegotiate with our nearest neighbours.

Yes, Hard-Brexiters, we would still need to negotiate with the EU post October 31st!
 

kmag

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,491
I don't say this often, but this is one of those times where I agree with the public 'at large'.

MPs should reflect the general views of their constituents - they've been elected to serve them in a representative democracy.

Of course, it's 2019, so I realise how horrible that can be in certain areas.

(Although if my local MP ever bothered to show their face then they'd probably be a far different MP than they currently are!)
No they shouldn't. They should state what their general opinions are on a range of issues and vote accordingly with their own discretion as the ultimate arbiter. Representative democracy is not democracy by proxy. Burke still applies.

'Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion … Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile interests, which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate, against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole; where, not local purposes, not local prejudices ought to guide, but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole. You choose a member indeed; but when you have chosen him, he is not member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,778
No they shouldn't. They should state what their general opinions are on a range of issues and vote accordingly with their own discretion as the ultimate arbiter. Representative democracy is not democracy by proxy. Burke still applies.
TBF, I don't think it's a catch-all, but I do think there has to be compromise based on the wishes of a constituency.

I think there's probably a more agreeable middle-ground between those two extremes presented in that poll.
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,940
It's been clear for a long time that the FBPE types were just as mental as the brexiteers. These people need to be kept as far away from another referendum as possible because the whole thing is dripping in middle-class privilege that isn't going to convince anyone to change their mind.
What a load of shit.
 

Kanhir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
632
Regardless of whose interests the MP acts in, MPs should at least be accountable to the people who elected them. It's remarkable that the people of a constituency have absolutely no power over their MP unless the MP actually breaks the law.

Best example: Kate Hoey's constituency Labour party finally got sick of her being a Tory in sheep's clothing and passed a no-confidence motion in her last year, recommending to Corbyn that she be removed and to the Labour NEC that she be deselected. The recommendations were summarily ignored and neither of these things happened.
(She did decide to retire a year later, thankfully for everyone. Probably just knew she wouldn't get re-elected after breaking ranks to block a customs union.)
 
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Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,671
Manchester, UK
What a load of shit.
Not really - these are the people who want to just do another referendum and assume people "won't get it wrong this time", and also have their heads so far up their own arses that they think names like "peoples vote" and "government of national unity" will be received well by the population and not incredibly patronising

They're basically Lib Dems who are hankering for a return to 2015 when as far as they were concerned, everything was just fine
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,101
Not really - these are the people who want to just do another referendum and assume people "won't get it wrong this time", and also have their heads so far up their own arses that they think names like "peoples vote" and "government of national unity" will be received well by the population and not incredibly patronising

They're basically Lib Dems who are hankering for a return to 2015 when as far as they were concerned, everything was just fine
I think it’s very easy to criticise others, but I would like to know what you think people should be doing instead? A lot of the time it feels like this line of reasoning ends with ‘shut up, sit down and trust Corbyn will fix things.’

From where I'm standing, the people's vote campaign has been fairly effective, and while there are certainly obnoxious proponents, what major movement isn't in part characterized loud extremes?
 
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null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
I think it’s very easy to criticise others, but I would like to know what you think people should be doing instead? A lot of the time it feels like this line of reasoning ends with ‘shut up, sit down and trust Corbyn will fix things.’

From where I'm standing, the people's vote campaign has been fairly effective, and while there are certainly obnoxious proponents, what major movement isn't in part characterized loud extremes?
the people's vote campaign is a mess

these people aren't going to stop brexit given the chance, they'll probably fuck it up again by being obnoxious arseholes who tell people there's a "right and wrong" answer

What a load of shit.
It's all right there. I didn't write the article.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
Again though, you're blaming and you're criticising, and even preparing to blame them in a future hypothetical situation... but as I asked:

What should people be doing?
honestly I have no idea but it's not this. A compromise appears to be long dead at this point we're left with two extremes and I don't think either is going to help.

If we end up with a second referendum let's say who would even front that? Last time it was David Cameron and the government tell us how stupid it was to leave even though they gave everyone that option and obviously this government isn't going to do that.

Corbyn has no credibility even if Labour back it so nobody is going to want to hear what he has to say.

Maybe we'll just end up with a million different talking heads nobody really cares about all giving their own message and just confusing people. Either way if people refuse to work together then we're leaving on the dumbest terms because Boris and Farage have a pretty clear message.
 

Tzarscream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,940
honestly I have no idea.
Exactly.

Man, genuinely, protesting in The Guardian that some Remainers are "being too remainey and they refer to the 2012 Olympics too much" and that they care too much about protesting Brexit is some of the most mind boggling shit ever.

It's so easy to criticise, and the reason they are criticising is not really because they are Remainers, but because they're Lib Dem supporters and they're the baddies because they don't believe in Corbyn.

The leave campaign absolutely fucked the country, and now we're having a go at the people trying to use the same tactics to unfuck the country? Honestly Corbyn and his supporters have been trying to capitalise on Brexit for their own benefit for the last 3 years and they have utterly failed in this regard. This isn't a political opportunity, it's a political nightmare and I will happily befriend anybody, Labour, Lib Dem or Tory that is committed to stopping it.

Party politics and progressive economic and social policy comes later, then we can go back to our tribes.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,101
The other interesting part of the Survation poll:
Plus 2nd Preference:
The UK leaves with a deal 58%
The UK leaves without a deal 24%
The UK remains in the EU 10%
Don't know 8%

If it was a multi-preference referendum, the result might depend on the voting system used. No deal is a Condorcet loser, but it's possible that Remain isn't a Condorcet winner too. Has to be said of course that this inevitably overestimates the 'UK leaves with a deal' massively because it isn't a specific outcome.

If we were to have a second referendum, I'd bet on Remain, but I'd still be extremely nervous. It's absolutely unbelievable the mess this country is in given the above sentiments. No Deal is clearly undemocratic, and it's galling that the media so rarely points this out.

honestly I have no idea but it's not this. A compromise appears to be long dead at this point we're left with two extremes and I don't think either is going to help.

If we end up with a second referendum let's say who would even front that? Last time it was David Cameron and the government tell us how stupid it was to leave even though they gave everyone that option and obviously this government isn't going to do that.

Corbyn has no credibility even if Labour back it so nobody is going to want to hear what he has to say.

Maybe we'll just end up with a million different talking heads nobody really cares about all giving their own message and just confusing people. Either way if people refuse to work together then we're leaving on the dumbest terms because Boris and Farage have a pretty clear message.
Thanks for your response, I broadly agree. I think I tend to be a little more lenient on those who are at least doing something, even if it is a long way from the ideal.

Having said that, I'm not sure that Farage/Boris have a clear message, and I think the polling suggests there's almost as much fragmentation on that side as on the Remain side. Boris is also still playing games about whether he wants a deal or not, whether he expects to get them or not, and so on. That doesn't seem clear to me. Some people fear that in the end the Leavers will solidify behind the Conservatives, but I don't see any future where Farage consents to that.
 
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null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
Exactly.

Man, genuinely, protesting in The Guardian that some Remainers are "being too remainey and they refer to the 2012 Olympics too much" and that they care too much about protesting Brexit is some of the most mind boggling shit ever.

It's so easy to criticise, and the reason they are criticising is not really because they are Remainers, but because they're Lib Dem supporters and they're the baddies because they don't believe in Corbyn.

The leave campaign absolutely fucked the country, and now we're having a go at the people trying to use the same tactics to unfuck the country? Honestly Corbyn and his supporters have been trying to capitalise on Brexit for their own benefit for the last 3 years and they have utterly failed in this regard. This isn't a political opportunity, it's a political nightmare and I will happily befriend anybody, Labour, Lib Dem or Tory that is committed to stopping it.

Party politics and progressive economic and social policy comes later, then we can go back to our tribes.
It's important because (if you hadn't cut out my entire post) I explained that if we end up having a second referendum that can stop brexit (which is the only way it's happening) these people and these "same tactics" will be destructive. Nobody is going to be won over be some smug git on the radio telling them they're stupid and wrong. If that's the public face of remain that you want then then it's over.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,046
London
Plus 2nd Preference:
The UK leaves with a deal 58%
The UK leaves without a deal 24%
The UK remains in the EU 10%
Don't know 8%

If it was a multi-preference referendum, the result might depend on the voting system used. No deal is a Condorcet loser, but it's possible that Remain isn't a Condorcet winner too. Has to be said of course that this inevitably overestimates the 'UK leaves with a deal' massively because it isn't a specific outcome.

If we were to have a second referendum, I'd bet on Remain, but I'd still be extremely nervous. It's absolutely unbelievable the mess this country is in given the above sentiments. No Deal is clearly undemocratic, and it's galling that the media so rarely points this out.



Thanks for your response, I broadly agree. I think I tend to be a little more lenient on those who are at least doing something, even if it is a long way from the ideal.

Having said that, I'm not sure that Farage/Boris have a clear message, and I think the polling suggests there's almost as much fragmentation on that side as on the Remain side. Boris is also still playing games about whether he wants a deal or not, whether he expects to get them or not, and so on. That doesn't seem clear to me. Some people fear that in the end the Leavers will solidify behind the Conservatives, but I don't see any future where Farage consents to that.
I think it's worth noting that in a straight referendum question it was 55-45 to remain in that Survation poll. And that 45% is for generic can mean anything you want it to mean Leave, not a specific option.
 

Gawge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
477
Interesting that the Greens promised a referendum on the EU in their 2015 manifesto, and as you can see below, Caroline Lucas personally voted for the referendum.

 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,263
And making the UK a vassel state of the US is clearly to the benefit of the US.

Im exaggerating somewhat, but no more so than leavers who like to throw around the 'vassel state' phrase.
It's not even much of an exaggeration. The UK would get strip-mined in trade negotiations with the US and China (and the EU lol)

progressive economic and social policy comes later,
Don't cede ground on this point. Stopping Brexit (in any form) is socially and economically progressive. Anyone who shares a vote with a fucker like Farage is not progressive on that issue. Leave is a right-wing policy goal. For the ultra-right nationalists across Europe, it's their dream policy.

That's that, then. Theresa May, PM for Life.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
i think you know Len means when Labour lose an election they don't refuse to leave Downing St, it isn't a vote about who leads the party.
Personally i think enough of a valid attempt has been made to implement it, it's just the loons are taking it too far and are happy for the country to burn.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,671
Manchester, UK
I think it’s very easy to criticise others, but I would like to know what you think people should be doing instead? A lot of the time it feels like this line of reasoning ends with ‘shut up, sit down and trust Corbyn will fix things.’

From where I'm standing, the people's vote campaign has been fairly effective, and while there are certainly obnoxious proponents, what major movement isn't in part characterized loud extremes?
Not at all, its a fairly simple line of logic, don't assume doing the same thing as 2016 will work again 3 years later, especially on the country's very last chance to stay in the EU. This has nothing to do with Corbyn, it's to do with realising how the message of "Actually the EU is fucking great and shouldn't be criticised for anything" and "we know things suck now, but it'll be worse after leaving" come across to a lot of people in the country.

And I would be making the case for the positives - like being one of the main countries that can help improve the EU where it is flawwed. Point out the positive things the EU has done. Call out the British Exceptionalist nonsense spat out by the right wing in the UK that gives people the delusion that the UK is in any way a special case in the world
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,212
Exactly.

Man, genuinely, protesting in The Guardian that some Remainers are "being too remainey and they refer to the 2012 Olympics too much" and that they care too much about protesting Brexit is some of the most mind boggling shit ever.

It's so easy to criticise, and the reason they are criticising is not really because they are Remainers, but because they're Lib Dem supporters and they're the baddies because they don't believe in Corbyn.

The leave campaign absolutely fucked the country, and now we're having a go at the people trying to use the same tactics to unfuck the country? Honestly Corbyn and his supporters have been trying to capitalise on Brexit for their own benefit for the last 3 years and they have utterly failed in this regard. This isn't a political opportunity, it's a political nightmare and I will happily befriend anybody, Labour, Lib Dem or Tory that is committed to stopping it.

Party politics and progressive economic and social policy comes later, then we can go back to our tribes.
That Guardian article was way too much. It was interesting in charting how remain evolved after the referendum, from the grassroots to the orgs at the top, but it was written with a mocking tone throughout which wasn't necessary.

Yes there are some pretty lame remainers out there, but political movements are always spearheaded by those who are most invested, ergo, odd people. It's the same across the spectrum.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,591
I'm always fascinated by the people who didn't read the question, like the 10% of Libs that would vote Leave, or the 2% of Brexit that would vote remain.
Who are the 7% of remainers that would vote Leave?
 

Old_King_Coal

Member
Nov 1, 2017
178
As someone who’s worked as the person asking the questions on surveys (not political ones though), I can assure you that stuff like this is just dumb churn. Some people will not really listen to you or pay attention and just answer in a way that obviously shows they don’t care, but if you try to double check they don’t back down. You could ask people if they want to become homeless and get cancer and you’d still get some yes’s in the data.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,965

“If Brexit undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be no chance of a U.S.-UK trade agreement passing the Congress,” the Democratic head of the U.S. House of Representatives added, first reported by Politico.
Nancy should start believing in britain.