BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson

[kradical]

Remainers following the lead of leavers in treating this as a proxy referendum is incredibly stupid for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the fact that we know the Brexit Party is going to win handily and the likely second place finishers, the Labour Party, have been tarred as a pro-brexit party by the remain parties - so you've agreed to take part in a proxy referendum you can only lose.
Of course the main reason it's stupid is that remainers shouldn't be showing contempt for the European parliament by treating the election as a purely protest vote, but I fear I'm on a losing battle with trying to get people to actually care about that.

 

[PJV3]

Remainers following the lead of leavers in treating this as a proxy referendum is incredibly stupid for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the fact that we know the Brexit Party is going to win handily and the likely second place finishers, the Labour Party, have been tarred as a pro-brexit party by the remain parties - so you've agreed to take part in a proxy referendum you can only lose.
Of course the main reason it's stupid is that remainers shouldn't be showing contempt for the European parliament by treating the election as a purely protest vote, but I fear I'm on a losing battle with trying to get people to actually care about that.

Click to shrink...

It doesn't work because the Brexit crowd are much alike and can concentrate their vote into a single party if they like because its all they care about.

The rest of us in sanity land should have taken some of the heat out of the election but I fear a lot of us have gone a bit Chuka Umunna.

 

[Number45]

Remainers following the lead of leavers in treating this as a proxy referendum is incredibly stupid for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the fact that we know the Brexit Party is going to win handily and the likely second place finishers, the Labour Party, have been tarred as a pro-brexit party by the remain parties - so you've agreed to take part in a proxy referendum you can only lose.
Of course the main reason it's stupid is that remainers shouldn't be showing contempt for the European parliament by treating the election as a purely protest vote, but I fear I'm on a losing battle with trying to get people to actually care about that.

Click to shrink...

If it's any consolation, I've currently weighing up between Greens and Labour due to their policies and who they represent in the EU parliament. When I initially looked at this vote I didn't really understand what I was voting for - I'm still far from an expert but I've at least educated myself that far!

In this region (SE) it seems pretty much everyone has a shot, so technically no wasted votes in that sense.

 

[Maledict]

Remainers following the lead of leavers in treating this as a proxy referendum is incredibly stupid for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the fact that we know the Brexit Party is going to win handily and the likely second place finishers, the Labour Party, have been tarred as a pro-brexit party by the remain parties - so you've agreed to take part in a proxy referendum you can only lose.
Of course the main reason it's stupid is that remainers shouldn't be showing contempt for the European parliament by treating the election as a purely protest vote, but I fear I'm on a losing battle with trying to get people to actually care about that.

Click to shrink...

The condescension towards people daring to vote against your party because they disagree with your parties stance on Europe is delightful.

The Labour is currently committed to leaving the EU. As such, as someone who wants to remain in the EU, why should I vote for them over a party that does want to remain? If Labour wins, it's MEPs won't be there for very long and won't do anything so why should I give a fuck what their policies are?

 

[*Splinter]

The condescension towards people daring to vote against your party because they disagree with your parties stance on Europe is delightful.

The Labour is currently committed to leaving the EU. As such, as someone who wants to remain in the EU, why should I vote for them over a party that does want to remain? If Labour wins, it's MEPs won't be there for very long and won't do anything so why should I give a fuck what their policies are?

Click to shrink...

Labour's MEPs don't decide whether or not we leave the EU

 

[kradical]

The condescension towards people daring to vote against your party because they disagree with your parties stance on Europe is delightful.

The Labour is currently committed to leaving the EU. As such, as someone who wants to remain in the EU, why should I vote for them over a party that does want to remain? If Labour wins, it's MEPs won't be there for very long and won't do anything so why should I give a fuck what their policies are?

Click to shrink...

Labour is not "my party", and I voted Green and would encourage anyone else to do the same, but go off I guess.

 

[Maledict]

Labour's MEPs don't decide whether or not we leave the EU

Click to shrink...

Right, but given that supporting their party means brexit happens under the current policy, why should I vote for them? Why would I support a party that wants to leave Europe in the European elections?

As it happens in my constituency I probably will vote for them due to the way the voting works. But labour being distraught at suddenly potentially losing London is enjoyable to be honest. Because it's taken it's younger, metropolitan voters for granted over brexit whilst catering to suburban and rural voters.

 

[Maledict]

Labour is not "my party", and I voted Green and would encourage anyone else to do the same, but go off I guess.

Click to shrink...

Then don't rant at people voting a different way? The Green Party is also benefitting from Remainers abandoning labour so it seems strange to complain that *this* is the issue that's finally swung it against them. Labour has relied for far too long on scooping up the 48% whilst still promising brexit. Anything which shakes them up and gets Corbyn off the fence is good in my books. We can't complain about Nazis and Farage tearing up the country if the only alternative is a milder version of the same idiocy.

 

[PJV3]

Then don't rant at people voting a different way? The Green Party is also benefitting from Remainers abandoning labour so it seems strange to complain that *this* is the issue that's finally swung it against them. Labour has relied for far too long on scooping up the 48% whilst still promising brexit. Anything which shakes them up and gets Corbyn off the fence is good in my books. We can't complain about Nazis and Farage tearing up the country if the only alternative is a milder version of the same idiocy.

Click to shrink...

I didn't read it as a rant, just being fed up with the situation.

 

[Zutroy]

My biggest challenge next week is to make sure my mum is voting for a remain party in the EU elections to offset my dad. I'll keep trying with my dad but my mums much more reasonable.

 

[kradical]

Then don't rant at people voting a different way? The Green Party is also benefitting from Remainers abandoning labour so it seems strange to complain that *this* is the issue that's finally swung it against them. Labour has relied for far too long on scooping up the 48% whilst still promising brexit. Anything which shakes them up and gets Corbyn off the fence is good in my books. We can't complain about Nazis and Farage tearing up the country if the only alternative is a milder version of the same idiocy.

Click to shrink...

I'm not ranting against people voting a different way, I'm saying it's a poor strategy by the remain parties to try and get people to treat it as a referendum, because losing another referendum will do massive harm to the remain cause, and there's no way they're not going to lose.

 

[PJV3]

I'm not ranting against people voting a different way, I'm saying it's a poor strategy by the remain parties to try and get people to treat it as a referendum, because losing another referendum will do massive harm to the remain cause, and there's no way they're not going to lose.

Click to shrink...

I don't mind the idea of Labour getting a slap if we end up with the same amount of green or lib MEPs, ending up with fewer pro European ones seems like a silly self harming way of teaching Corbyn a lesson and doesn't do anything for remain.

The news post election is going to be happy Farage and Labour infighting as May is already finished. I'm not feeling positive about the situation, and my mood was improving after Corbyn finally pulled out of talks and looked to be firming up on another vote.

I hope it goes well for the Lib/Green candidates.

 

[Maledict]

I think to be honest what the remain parties do and don't do doesn't matter. It's being treated as a referendum by the media, by the voters and Farage. Ignoring that aspect isn't going to win any votes and will just depress your voting base - see the spectacular success of labour's 'keep it local' campaign over the last week.

In an ideal world it wouldn't be treated as a referendum, but unfortunately we are where we are.

 

[PJV3]

I think to be honest what the remain parties do and don't do doesn't matter. It's being treated as a referendum by the media, by the voters and Farage. Ignoring that aspect isn't going to win any votes and will just depress your voting base - see the spectacular success of labour's 'keep it local' campaign over the last week.

In an ideal world it wouldn't be treated as a referendum, but unfortunately we are where we are.

Click to shrink...

I can handle the idea of people treating it as a referendum on Brexit if they are more tactical about it and their priorities. And the pro EU left wing vote actually comes out to vote on the day.

Hopefully I'm panicking over nothing and it doesn't turn into the latest of a long line of shitty outcomes.

 

[Number45]

I know the polls have been somewhat unreliable over the last few years... but they're too conclusive in favour of those fuckwits to expect anything less than a horrible result. I mean the left often has the harder job getting their supporters to the polls in a GE, and this has nowhere near the same profile.

 

[PJV3]

I know the polls have been somewhat unreliable over the last few years... but they're too conclusive in favour of those fuckwits to expect anything less than a horrible result. I mean the left often has the harder job getting their supporters to the polls in a GE, and this has nowhere near the same profile.

Click to shrink...

I'm used to right wingers having a more reliable voting base, but the last few years there's something like a global phenomenon for missing some pretty open goals and some terrible fuckers winning. Corbyn managing to claw a decent GE result given the mess that is the Labour party being the only exception.

 

[Antrax]

Remainers following the lead of leaver

Click to shrink...

Much like a street fight, you don't have a choice on the rules if one party to the fight has already decided on certain rules. Voters have already decided the terms of these elections. They are a proxy for the current mood on Brexit.

Worrying about what the MEPs will or won't do seems silly to me as well. The two largest parties in the HoC (with over 550 seats out of 650) are pro-Brexit; Remain seems pretty solidly a pipe-dream either way under those conditions. So the odds of these MEPs actually getting considered at all as legitimate by the other EU MEPs is low. They all know how these elections are viewed.

 

[WillyGubbins]

What are the chances we don't leave with no deal now? It seems inevitable that Boris or some other no deal supporting nutter will end up as PM, and there's doesn't look to be any way to stop them from going through with it any more. It all seems pretty hopeless.

 

[Uzzy]

What are the chances we don't leave with no deal now? It seems inevitable that Boris or some other no deal supporting nutter will end up as PM, and there's doesn't look to be any way to stop them from going through with it any more. It all seems pretty hopeless.

Click to shrink...

Parliament doesn't want no deal, and in that scenario I imagine Parliament would vote to revoke rather than let no deal happen. Of course Boris could push for a new election at that point, which would be interesting.

 

[WillyGubbins]

Parliament doesn't want no deal, and in that scenario I imagine Parliament would vote to revoke rather than let no deal happen. Of course Boris could push for a new election at that point, which would be interesting.

Click to shrink...

How does that vote come about though? Doesn't there need to be an amendable bill or something like that?

 

[Maledict]

My big concern is that whilst there's a majority for no deal, I dont think there's a majority for revoke. If that's the only way of preventing no deal, I suspect we won't revoke and will no deal by default. Particularly with how the polls are currently.

 

[Zastava]

My big concern is that whilst there's a majority for no deal, I dont think there's a majority for revoke. If that's the only way of preventing no deal, I suspect we won't revoke and will no deal by default. Particularly with how the polls are currently.

Click to shrink...

Yep. I have zero faith that there's enough MPs with the stomach for the backlash to revoking. Easier just to do nothing, even though no deal will be worse in all ways and an utter shitshow that will see them all destroyed anyway.

 

[Ando]

it would probably have been a better strategy for remainers to claim labour was a second referendum party, had voted for it in parliament and promised to again and then claim a big victory on june 24th (by adding together the votes) while trying to push
labour into a corner instead of letting the lib dems grow their party base.

it would probably have been a better strategy for labour to not run a horribly negative (i am guilty of joining this) campaign towards remainers that gave no-one any positive reason to vote labour on any issue, meanwhile ignoring that farage even exists and refusing to fight him as an enemy of any labour goal. it's been weak and useless and the exact opposite of 2017.

i think the consequences of the brexit party being on about 35% are really bad, and it's hard to see how a second referendum takes place with no deal forces so high. do you put it on the ballot and risk everything? or do you ignore it and make it a glorified opinion poll that is illegitimate to most voters?

 

[Binabik15]

My big concern is that whilst there's a majority for no deal, I dont think there's a majority for revoke. If that's the only way of preventing no deal, I suspect we won't revoke and will no deal by default. Particularly with how the polls are currently.

Click to shrink...

If that's the outcome I will personally donate 100 milkshakes to UK peeps.

It's such a shitshow, all that effort, money and TIME wasted by the EU to stop the UK from shooting itself and the result is a horde of Farages sabotaging important EU matters from within. Putin must beat his dick raw every night thinking about Brexit and Trump.

 

[Uzzy]

How does that vote come about though? Doesn't there need to be an amendable bill or something like that?

Click to shrink...

The process has already been deployed with Yvette Cooper's recent bill. Parliament can seize control of the business motion and put forward a private members bill for that purpose. So it's theoretically doable, but as Maledict and Zastava pointed out, there's possibly not a majority for revoking right now, even to prevent no deal.

 

[WillyGubbins]

The process has already been deployed with Yvette Cooper's recent bill. Parliament can seize control of the business motion and put forward a private members bill for that purpose. So it's theoretically doable, but as Maledict and Zastava pointed out, there's possibly not a majority for revoking right now, even to prevent no deal.

Click to shrink...

Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it. Still feeling pretty hopeless but at least there's a chance I guess.

 

[kradical]

Much like a street fight, you don't have a choice on the rules if one party to the fight has already decided on certain rules. Voters have already decided the terms of these elections. They are a proxy for the current mood on Brexit.

Worrying about what the MEPs will or won't do seems silly to me as well. The two largest parties in the HoC (with over 550 seats out of 650) are pro-Brexit; Remain seems pretty solidly a pipe-dream either way under those conditions. So the odds of these MEPs actually getting considered at all as legitimate by the other EU MEPs is low. They all know how these elections are viewed.

Click to shrink...

If you think the possibilities of remaining are so remote, why bother making a protest vote at all if it's so pointless. Or how about voting for someone that will help the EU become more equitable, socially conscious, environmentally friendly, or what ever issues are important to you, as a parting gift to the rest of Europe. Not sure I understand your point about the other MEPs viewing them as legitimate - it's not like, for example, the S&D would stop Labour MEPs sitting with them and it's not like their votes would be any less legitimate.

The street fight remain parties have been engaging in hasn't been with the Brexit Party, it's been with other remain parties and Labour, which is a perfectly valid election strategy, but a counter productive referendum strategy. We all know that remainers will be on the news the day after the election saying "well actually 2 out of 3 Labour voters voted remain and 80% of their MPs and pretty much all of their MEPs support remain so you can't count votes for them as votes for brexit" which is going to ring pretty hollow. Yes the Brexit Party was always going to treat it as a second referendum and to an extent the media too, but since the remain parties decided not to work together and since it's been obvious from the start the Brexit Party is going to win, how has the remain cause been strengthened going along with this narrative. If this had motivated a significant amount of remain supporters who otherwise wouldn't have voted to do so, I suppose that could have helped, but the polling suggests that the big boosts for the Lib Dems and Greens is coming from people who would have voted Labour switching, and this leads to the possibility of the Brexit Party getting more MEPs than they would have otherwise due to the D'Hondt system. Anyway, I had a really great point I was going to finish with but I completely lost my train of thought, so I'm just going to hit post reply.

 

[PJV3]

If you think the possibilities of remaining are so remote, why bother making a protest vote at all if it's so pointless. Or how about voting for someone that will help the EU become more equitable, socially conscious, environmentally friendly, or what ever issues are important to you, as a parting gift to the rest of Europe. Not sure I understand your point about the other MEPs viewing them as legitimate - it's not like, for example, the S&D would stop Labour MEPs sitting with them and it's not like their votes would be any less legitimate.

The street fight remain parties have been engaging in hasn't been with the Brexit Party, it's been with other remain parties and Labour, which is a perfectly valid election strategy, but a counter productive referendum strategy. We all know that remainers will be on the news the day after the election saying "well actually 2 out of 3 Labour voters voted remain and 80% of their MPs and pretty much all of their MEPs support remain so you can't count votes for them as votes for brexit" which is going to ring pretty hollow. Yes the Brexit Party was always going to treat it as a second referendum and to an extent the media too, but since the remain parties decided not to work together and since it's been obvious from the start the Brexit Party is going to win, how has the remain cause been strengthened going along with this narrative. If this had motivated a significant amount of remain supporters who otherwise wouldn't have voted to do so, I suppose that could have helped, but the polling suggests that the big boosts for the Lib Dems and Greens is coming from people who would have voted Labour switching, and this leads to the possibility of the Brexit Party getting more MEPs than they would have otherwise due to the D'Hondt system. Anyway, I had a really great point I was going to finish with but I completely lost my train of thought, so I'm just going to hit post reply.

Click to shrink...

You're saying the same thing as me but better and in a clearer way, it also feels more like sending Corbyn a message and referendum on his leadership than a way to defeat the Brexit party. It's a shame Labour has been reduced to this one man because he is in a small minority within the party on Europe.

But maybe a good kicking will frighten him into action finally, who knows he might even change before the election happens (lol)

 

[DiscountBeds]

 

[Ac30]

Click to shrink...

So that's opening the door to EEA then, great, progress.

 

[kradical]

You're saying the same thing as me but better and in a clearer way, it also feels more like sending Corbyn a message and referendum on his leadership than a way to defeat the Brexit party. It's a shame Labour has been reduced to this one man because he is in a small minority within the party on Europe.

But maybe a good kicking will frighten him into action finally, who knows he might even change before the election happens (lol)

Click to shrink...

I didn't watch Marr this morning, but apparently Corbyn said he wanted a confirmatory public vote on ANY deal agreed by parliament, and also considerably softened his stance on freedom of movement, which suggests to me he's paying attention to the message remainers are sending. Will watch the interview when I get home.

 

[DiscountBeds]

So that's opening the door to EEA then, great, progress.

Click to shrink...

Yeah. Freedom of movement always felt like a thing Labour would ultimately accept, but obviously they weren't going to shout about that from the rooftops given it pretty much stops any chance they'd have of getting to the negotiation table in the first place.

 

[CampFreddie]

I think treating it like a legit election on EU parliamentary policies is what's ridiculous. These MPs are gone after 5 months. What EU policies are they going to pursue and ratify in that time? What impact could they possibly have in the short time before they leave?
Yay, vote for this guy because S&D have great policies on reforming state aid rules! That's sure to bring the people to the polls to defeat the Brexit party.

Every UK election for any purpose is now a Brexit proxy vote until such time as we leave or revoke. You may want it to be a different and might think other policy issues should be prioritized (and you'd be right that not everything should be about Brexit), but that's the way it is.
Just thank the gods that the Brexit party didn't have the infrastructure to support local council candidates, or every town in Britain would be getting fucked over right now.

 

[soda mixer]

I didn't watch Marr this morning, but apparently Corbyn said he wanted a confirmatory public vote on ANY deal agreed by parliament, and also considerably softened his stance on freedom of movement, which suggests to me he's paying attention to the message remainers are sending. Will watch the interview when I get home.

Click to shrink...

And this is exactly why the move to vote Lib Dem/Green in the European elections is critical; the MEPs won't be able to stop Brexit, but the results are among the most effective ways of showing Labour that their messaging and policy on Brexit has been fucked. They need to be made to understand that fighting for remain is in their electoral interest going forward.

 

[plagiarize]

I think treating it like a legit election on EU parliamentary policies is what's ridiculous. These MPs are gone after 5 months. What EU policies are they going to pursue and ratify in that time? What impact could they possibly have in the short time before they leave?
Yay, vote for this guy because S&D have great policies on reforming state aid rules! That's sure to bring the people to the polls to defeat the Brexit party.

Every UK election for any purpose is now a Brexit proxy vote until such time as we leave or revoke. You may want it to be a different and might think other policy issues should be prioritized (and you'd be right that not everything should be about Brexit), but that's the way it is.
Just thank the gods that the Brexit party didn't have the infrastructure to support local council candidates, or every town in Britain would be getting fucked over right now.

Click to shrink...

Brexit shit heels are going to do everything they can to make the EU eager for the UK to leave. That's their play and don't think it can't work.

 

[Deleted member 835]

This will be how the EU dies, not countries leaving but by how more and more countries are moving right and spewing hate.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

This will be how the EU dies, not countries leaving but by how more and more countries are moving right and soewing hate.

Click to shrink...

Farage and co's fears of the bloc as some tyrannical regime may damn well come true... through Farage and co.

 

[jelly]

Click to shrink...

Corbyn was just wiggling around trying not to commit to anything, I don't think it means anything one thing or another. He can ask the EU but the answer may just be the same, four freedoms, no cherry picking.

 

[Deleted member 835]

Farage and co's fears of the bloc as some tyrannical regime may damn well come true... through Farage and co.

Click to shrink...

Yep, sadly. Wonder what Farage will think of the EU then?


This shit will never get old though

 

[jelly]

This will be how the EU dies, not countries leaving but by how more and more countries are moving right and spewing hate.

Click to shrink...

It's a slightly scary turn but I don't think they have the numbers to turn the EU on it's head. They are still a bunch of self serving on hate to get rich assholes, not some mastermind Nazi group about to take over Europe. There is more good people in power than them.

Farage would love the UK in the EU because he would still have a reason to exist and make easy money. All these UK far right groups will be lost post Brexit which is a tiny tiny silver lining. They pushed too far and got Brexit, gravy train stops, whoops.

 

[jelly]

Those comments in the milkshake tweet, bots surely, I hope so.

 

[DeadJoshWalking]

So that's opening the door to EEA then, great, progress.

Click to shrink...

Except it's not because he's never going to be in Government to negotiate anything. He should be refusing to answer questions on what he'd negotiate because the house voted down the no confidence motion and prevented any general election.

He'll do anything to avoid talking about his partys' actual policy which should now be (given that every thing else has failed) a second vote. Instead he just keeps pretending 'everything is on the table' what a failure.

At this point May could turn round next week with a second vote in her bill and the Tories AND the Brexit party would be ahead of Labour in the polls.

 

[UnholyChocolate]

There was a good Kurzgesagt video on the EU today.

 

[Irminsul]

This will be how the EU dies, not countries leaving but by how more and more countries are moving right and spewing hate.

Click to shrink...

Nah, because they can pretend they're building a block as much as they want to, but when push comes to shove, they're far too nationalistic to actually work together on a European level. That has been shown again and again. The best thing they can hope for is a purely destructive fraction in the European Parliament, but that's not much different from how it is already.

 

[Deleted member 835]

It's a slightly scary turn but I don't think they have the numbers to turn the EU on it's head. They are still a bunch of self serving on hate to get rich assholes, not some mastermind Nazi group about to take over Europe. There is more good people in power than them.

Farage would love the UK in the EU because he would still have a reason to exist and make easy money. All these UK far right groups will be lost post Brexit which is a tiny tiny silver lining. They pushed too far and got Brexit, gravy train stops, whoops.

Click to shrink...

For the record I am on about in the future, not a sudden collapse. Europe is sadly pushing more and more right.

 

[FliX]

For the record I am on about in the future, not a sudden collapse. Europe is sadly pushing more and more right.

Click to shrink...

I can only hope it swings back again in time.

 

[CeeCee]

 

[Deleted member 835]

 

[Deleted member 34788]

Click to shrink...

Delicious, EU managed to fuck Ukip nice and good when they fined them half a million, I hope they ream farage once more.

 

[jelly]

Good but it does prove the EU are indeed a bit shit in this regard, you should be thrown out for such things. Farage has been taking the piss and not doing any work for 20 years.