I don't think i will ever forgive any mp who supported the iraq war, everytime i see tony blair come out of is hole i think war criminal.
I don't really remember, but were the doubts about the 'Iraq dossier' prevelent pre-vote?
There's a difference between voting in knowledge of faleshoods or heavy suspicion of falsehoods, and voting cos, on balance, you think it justified. Well, for some people there is...! I just can't recall what was known before. I can well imagine there were many (in the population) opposed on principle, but that's different.
I would argue there is a big difference in culpability for Iraq between the deceitful ringleaders like Blair and junior, first-term backbenchers like Lammy who voted with the party whip.
It's not great but let's not pretend he's a war criminal like Blair.
I don't really remember, but were the doubts about the 'Iraq dossier' prevelent pre-vote?
What I am asking is was there reasonable doubt about the dossier per se, as opposed to a more general anti-intervention sentiment that would, even if the dossier/argument been legitimately founded, still have opposed intervention. 'Everyone knew it was bullshit' can go either way there, tbh. I genuinely can't remember.
I even sort of like Jess Phillips and I'd agree with this.the new dan jarvis is jess phillips which is exactly the same thing of corbyn-sceptics choosing a marketable media profile foremost over being able to articulating a coherent vision for the country in 2019. dan jarvis was just "he's a soldier and war hero but also a single dad after being widowed, people will love him & the sun won't even be able to smear him [wishful thinking lol]". now jess phillips is "she tells it like it and doesn't give a shit about anyone what a ledge, voters will find her honesty and brummie sense of humour so refreshing!!, policies what even are policies lol"
The decision to go to war was so dodgy that the Security Council rejected intervention at that point. Britain, Spain and the United States then forged a tripartite alliance to go to war without Security Council support.
What I am asking is was there reasonable doubt about the dossier per se, as opposed to a more general anti-intervention sentiment that would, even if the dossier/argument been legitimately founded, still have opposed intervention. 'Everyone knew it was bullshit' can go either way there, tbh. I genuinely can't remember.
Tbf Corbyn receives precisely the same treatment: 'He's on the right side of history 100% of the time and hates imperialism and fights prejudice 24/7 and is a proper socialist thank god'. I'd warrant a lot of people know fuck all about Labour's platform beyond the general sentiments.
Corbyn's policies are significantly more popular than Corbyn himself.
Tbf Corbyn receives precisely the same treatment: 'He's on the right side of history 100% of the time and hates imperialism and fights prejudice 24/7 and is a proper socialist thank god'. I'd warrant a lot of people know fuck all about Labour's platform beyond the general sentiments.
So what's this news of alt-right bozos like Sargon and CountDankula joining UKIP as MEP candidates? What a clownshow, lol.
The country has been sent back a hundred years and millions of lives have been changed forever, you utter gobshite.
I would argue there is a big difference in culpability for Iraq between the deceitful ringleaders like Blair and junior, first-term backbenchers like Lammy who voted with the party whip.
It's not great but let's not pretend he's a war criminal like Blair.
Would love to see such passion from yourself over the environment of hostility that exists in the Labour party for Jewish members, and also Jewish members that feel they can no longer vote for the party.I agree with this, though I think he was a junior minister at the time rather than a backbencher. Clearly his culpability is many, many orders of magnitude less than some of the truly despicable people involved like Blair and Campbell, but he still voted for it and that's something that will stay hanging over his head forever. What's sickening though is seeing people say we need to move past Iraq and nobody's perfect as if the war was just some minor political scandal.
Yes. Everyone knew it was bullshit. The stop the war protest was the largest in history.
I don't agree with all the aspects of actual classic liberalism, but I can respect it as any other political view and I actually believe there's a dearth of actual liberals that it's greatly hurting politics all over the Western world.
That said, I've learned to stay at howitzer distance from anybody claiming to be a ~~CLASSIC LIBERAL~~
Would love to see such passion from yourself over the environment of hostility that exists in the Labour party for Jewish members, and also Jewish members that feel they can no longer vote for the party.
1. Labour's handling of the anti-semitism row, as weaponised and bad faith as a lot of the accusations are, has been poor.
2. To suggest that it is even remotely on the same scale as the fucking Iraq war and someone should be equally upset about it is gross and an insult to those who lost their lives.
3. If you search my posts you will see me calling someone out for using anti-semitic tropes in this very thread (or the previous one) within the past week or so.
HmmmmmThe Democrat establishment and CHUK are united in their bad faith use of anti-semitism as a cudgel against the left.
This isn't the gotcha you think it is
Wow! You found out that in one post he said the accusation anti semitism is used in bad faith and then found another one in which he said the same.
Is there an anti semitic fringe in the Labour party? Yes.So yeah we can jump on David Lammy on how he voted it 2003 but we'll skirt around the other terrible shit that is happening in the party in 2019.
That's a load of shit.Is there an anti semitic fringe in the Labour party? Yes.
Is the response not ideal? Yes.
Would the focus on the anti semitism crisis stop the moment a centrist was the Labour leader? Yes.
He's downplaying the issue as he's implying the centre ground and right wing are exploiting it unfairly.
I'll answer your question by saying that the fact these outlets even have the material to run these criticisms is a deeply shameful thing for the Labour party.Ok, putting the centrists aside for now, are you honestly saying you truly believe the right wing press and politicians are talking so much about antisemitism purely out of genuine concern for Jewish people? I'm flabbergasted anyone could in good faith say they don't think the Daily Mail, the Daily Express or the Sun are exploiting it unfairly.
Ok, putting the centrists aside for now, are you honestly saying you truly believe the right wing press and politicians are talking so much about antisemitism purely out of genuine concern for Jewish people? I'm flabbergasted anyone could in good faith say they don't think the Daily Mail, the Daily Express or the Sun are exploiting it unfairly.
Yup.Quite frankly, who gives a shit? What's right is right
In the US, Al Franken was a creep who got run out of town on a rail by the Democratic Party for being a creep. And I'm glad they didn't stop to consider the sincerity of Daily Mail equivalents when throwing him out.
Fuck the right wing rags. Just do what's right.
1) it is entirely right that any anti-Semitism in the Labour party is too much and that the response has been weak but also that the scale and severity of the problem are massively exaggerated by bad faith liars who dislike Corbyn for his policies like most of the tinge group, Luciana Berger excepted.
1) it is entirely right that any anti-Semitism in the Labour party is too much and that the response has been weak but also that the scale and severity of the problem are massively exaggerated by bad faith liars who dislike Corbyn for his policies like most of the tinge group, Luciana Berger excepted.
2) this whole tangent is some of the most absurd whataboutism I've ever witnessed. "BUT WHY DONT YOU CARE ABOUT THE JEWS AS MUCH AS FHE IRAQ WAR EHHHH???"
As if the situations are remotely comparable or have anything to do with one another. It's fucking pathetic and you should feel bad for going down this road.
Hell, I really like Lammy and he's one of my top choices for leader, but come on. Absolute joke.
I don't like Corbyn. I think he sucks, partly because of his negligent handling of the AS issue. I don't excuse him, but nor do I think it is downplaying it to say, entirely accurately, that the issue has been made out to be more severe than it is because it's proven to be electorally damaging.Bold and underlined 1: See, this caveat always comes out and it again attempts to play down the issue, it's not massively exaggerated. I understand it's difficult to comprehend that this issue exists in the Labour party in such an awful way but telling yourself it's part of a bigger conspiracy against Corbyn is unfortunately not helping and makes it look like you're not taking it seriously.
Bold and underlined 2: I mentioned it because as I said, many on "the left" (and I hate saying this because I identify myself as somebody on the left) get very passionate about the Iraq war and calling everybody a war criminal, but don't share that same outrage on other internal issues. The Iraq war is a great talking point to criticise New Labour and "The Blairites" but the Anti Semitism debate is a good point to criticise Corbyn, but we downplay that issue because we like Corbyn and he can do no wrong.
I do agree though this has gone off topic from Brexit though so lets wind this down, but my point is I find it very irritating to see so many people hold MP's to such a high account on 2003 voting records to the point that they invalidate anything that they do today, but seemingly don't give as much of a shit about very problematic issues happening right now. Probably because the Iraq war is good against the "bad guys" (New Labour) but Anti Semitism is against the "Good Guys" (Corbyn and Momentum).
I don't like Corbyn. I think he sucks, partly because of his negligent handling of the AS issue. I don't excuse him, but nor do I think it is downplaying it to say, entirely accurately, that the issue has been made out to be more severe than it is because it's proven to be electorally damaging.
How can one of the richest nations in the world make the choice to treat the most vulnerable of society so callously?
Surely you have empirical evidence showing that Labour has a significantly worse anti-Semitism problem than other parties deserving of the special attention it's been given in the media?