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BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson
- Thread starter Uzzy
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It's where the 'flexibility' of an unwritten constitution becomes a noose around it's own neck.
With your current politics, I have no idea why you would want to do away with monarchy. There is more reason to switch to a real monarchy and do away with parliament.
That's only if you believe the myth that the Windsors are really politically neutral and aren't a bunch of conservatives.
I can see why a Brexiter might want a real monarchy in the current situation.
Looking at the shit they are in favour of, no, they're not misinformed by the media or whatever, they're simply vile, disgusting racists and xenophobes. Just like Lil Dump.
If she pulled the UK out with no deal the gutter press and the gammons would make her Empress, no?
I'll say it again, both US and UK need a political reboot like e.g. France and Germany got after losing (ok, and winning, but we want the humble version) wars.
what more do you want?
They support a second ref on any deal (including one they would hypothetically negotiate should there be an election and they win).
They say remain should be an option on any ballot.
They'd campaign to remain.
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When I read the Guardian headline I just knew he would still be on that fence somehow. "We back remain against the Tory deal or no deal".. but no doubt would still try to implement a deal of his own if in power.
Labour, please drop Corbyn and his puppet masters Milne and Len etc.
Labour, please drop Corbyn and his puppet masters Milne and Len etc.
Not sure what else Corbyn can do to appease some people.
But then I see those people as about as reasonable as the Brexit party.
But then I see those people as about as reasonable as the Brexit party.
what fence? If there's a Tory/No deal they'll support a second ref and if there's an election first (and they win) they'll put the deal to a second ref.
There's always going to be a deal. whether it's Tory or Labour there has to be a deal in some form before it goes on a ballot.
Yup. If you want a second referendum, Labour policy is for you. They're promising a second referendum in all circumstances, with remain as an option.
Take the following two statements:
A) Labour supports a second referendum*
*with caveats, provisos and disclaimers
B) Labour supports a second referendum.
A lot of people want B, but always seem to get a version of A. Brexit is a polarizing issue and there are few people that have patience for the fallacy that it's still possible to appease both sides of the debate.
Their position on the Tory-negotiated deal and a referendum is fine. The messaging compared to other parties is weak, however. Instead of "if this, then we back that" approach, NOW is the time to be hammering home that the Tory deal is a disaster and a failure, and it needs to go to the public NOW.
Their position on a Labour-negotiated Brexit is still typical cakeism. 3 years on and there's no real substance to their belief that they can deliver their slightly-softer-than-the-Tories Brexit without having the exact same problems re: Irish border OR delivering a Brexit so soft as to be pointless.
Where does it say this? Because in the Guardian live feed he's not clearly defining what would happen if Labour gained power. He's just opposing the Tory deal (or no deal).
And as for the Brexit Party comment above, Jesus Christ. Personally I draw more parallels between the blind following of Farage and Corbyn supporters.
It's fine to a point if Labour don't get into power because they would be full on remain versus no deal/Tory deal, however the chances of such a ballot being on the table or there ever being one, slim to none so it's easy for Labour to positon themselves as remain in this case, nothing to lose.
If there is a snap election before Brexit, what would their Brexit position be, this is were it unravels fast and goes into unicorn nonsense fence sitting, they wouldn't be remain 100%, they would be Labour fantasy deal and we already know they want to cherry pick that the EU won't accept so we are back to square one, Tory fantasy versus Labour fantasy Brexit.
If there is a snap election before Brexit, what would their Brexit position be, this is were it unravels fast and goes into unicorn nonsense fence sitting, they wouldn't be remain 100%, they would be Labour fantasy deal and we already know they want to cherry pick that the EU won't accept so we are back to square one, Tory fantasy versus Labour fantasy Brexit.
Plenty here on Corbyn's vagueness.
The obvious and crucial contextual difference you're omitting being that Tory default in the case they don't get what they want is no deal, which Labour have consistently and constantly ruled out.
A is a more useful option to take in terms of room to manoeuvre.
But it's dumb because by picking A over B you're still getting side eyed by those who you picked A to appease anyway. And we all know if Labour actually got into power, before brexit gets decided (if it ever does, or if it's even possible), Corbyn trying to sell 'his deal' would kill him and his faction. So why bother with A at all?
It's a good step but it's not exactly gonna make them surge in the polls. The people who are minded to switch to lib dem/green would just focus on the small print, especially come election time if the caveats are still there. But I dunno if their internal polling has them wargaming certain seats over others.
Oh no, the guardian thinks Corbyn isn't saying the exact right thing, what an unforeseen series of events
These were agreed by the unions
Scenario 1
Tory deal
Labour support second ref (deal/no-deal vs remain)
Will campaign to remain
Scenario 2
(Labour win election)
Labour deal
Will support second ref (deal vs remain)
No agreed position (would probably remain neutral but let MPs camapign however they want like Harold Wilson did in '75)
either way the support is now > Get deal, second ref, [deal] vs remain.
with a Labour government this is guaranteed whereas now the Tories could just shut it all down and vote for the deal as is.
edit: I see the letter he sent to members only acknowledges scenario 1 for now but the above were both agreed so if there was an election this is what would more than likely happen (unless there's another change before then but that seem unlikely as there's nothing else to offer)
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Labour are now fully committed to a second referendum with remain as an option in any scenario. They would campaign for remain in any scenario other than the very unlikely case that they come to power and manage to negotiate a great deal with the EU - and even in that case they would put their negotiated deal to a referendum with remain as an option. Anyone who still says nothing has changed and this is more Corbyn fence sitting is not arguing in good faith.
It's the biggest 'climbdown' he has done in ages, and the biggest switch we will get. Unless you want them to broker a deal they will spend many months doing once they get in power just to rubbish it and run a ref on remain Vs no deal.
Yes, that would be the best option.
/S ,of course.
This position makes absolute sense given the amount of people that voted leave and would do so again. The ground is shifting evermore for remain winning, but sure as shit it's not at that stage yet where it's a lock. The idea labour WON'T do a second ref when they get in power is fucking mental.
They are fully expecting a snap election, a ref in any circumstance will be in the next manifesto, right next to what they agreed to today.
Labour now, by and large, is a remain party and a second ref one.
We can split hairs, but let's be honest now, that will be against Corbyn, not this big shift in the absolutely right direction.
Labour's position is B) though. They support a second referendum in all circumstances. 'Labour supports remain' is the statement that comes with caveats.
Ouch. It's gonna be disheartening when the Brexit party wins seats at the next GE.
Like I know polls are varied and we're trending away from the typical duopoly but how are people in Labour not running around screaming? Moderate Tories as well. Lib Dems really might become kingmakers, again.
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Finally we have some kind of direction but honestly this shouldn't have taken so long. Labour should have been behind a second referendum and unequivocally remain months ago.
Think this is a good article, particularly:
"Centrist thinking is focused on two false premises. The first is that the 2012 London Olympic ceremony represented an idyllic high-point of culture and unity in the UK, rather than occurring amid the brutal onslaught of austerity, with food bank use growing and the bedroom tax ruining lives. The second is that the UK became divided by Brexit and the 2016 vote, rather than it being a symptom of long-term problems: the decline of industry and the public sector begun by Margaret Thatcher and continued by Tony Blair and David Cameron; vast inequality of opportunity, wealth and health; and the number of people being routinely ignored in a system with a huge democratic and electoral deficit. "
"Centrist thinking is focused on two false premises. The first is that the 2012 London Olympic ceremony represented an idyllic high-point of culture and unity in the UK, rather than occurring amid the brutal onslaught of austerity, with food bank use growing and the bedroom tax ruining lives. The second is that the UK became divided by Brexit and the 2016 vote, rather than it being a symptom of long-term problems: the decline of industry and the public sector begun by Margaret Thatcher and continued by Tony Blair and David Cameron; vast inequality of opportunity, wealth and health; and the number of people being routinely ignored in a system with a huge democratic and electoral deficit. "
This is exactly right. I had the email from Corbyn and it set out that
- Any party who negotiates a deal (or attempts to no deal) should put it to a referendum where the other option is remain
- Labour would campaign to remain against any Conservative deal (that doesn't "protect the economy and jobs", whatever that means) or no deal
Which, by implication, means Labour would campaign for their own deal if they were in government, but still put it to a referendum
What a load of shite.
I really hate this attitude of Corbynites lumping in critics of Corbyn as some sort of right wing centrists that have invaded the party and must be removed. I generally agree with most of Corbyns political stances in essence, but in practice he's just not a good leader and he isn't a remainer.
Being a remainer or agreeing a critic of Corbyn does not then make you a fucking idiot that thinks the 2012 olympics solved racism. It makes you somebody that craves to see some real leadership.
Corbyn could honestly fart in to a microphone and some people would give a standing ovation.
Don't bring that fucking centrist rhetoric from the states back in here. A centrist in the middle of the democrat and republican party is far far far different from a UK centrist and even then, Tom Watson is not a centrist, disagreeing or being critical of Corbyn does not make you a centrist, backing remain does not make you a centrist.
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No one said backing remain made you a centrist, but neat projection
Fully agree that you can be remain and not a centrist, I don't think the article suggests anything of the sort. It's more stuff like this:
"All the MPs who make a living by constantly attacking the leadership and promoting themselves over the party, Watson included, abstained in the fateful Tory welfare reform vote in 2015 that sparked a huge surge of support for Corbyn. "
Tom Watson is clearly much more towards the centre of British politics.
Personally, I have a lot of issues with Corbyn. I get quite annoyed that I end up being in a position of defending him so much because the objections from the centre are just so annoying.
Isn't this all whataboutism though? Regardless of what you think about James O'Brien, he holds brexiteers to task on a daily basis. Regardless of T Watsons voting history (genuine question what did Ed whip for on that austerity motion?) he's the deputy head of the opposition and has been holding Corbyn to task on his hand wringing on whether or not to have a clear stance on Brexit, and rightly so.
We cannot actually address the fundamental issues with the country until Brexit is solved, and if it's solved in the wrong way it'll be 10 times harder than it is now, and it's already really fucking hard.
I am so sick of people capitulating to brexiteers who won a very narrow vote on lies, and i am deeply, deeply disappointed in Corbyn for not condemning it from the start.
We cannot actually address the fundamental issues with the country until Brexit is solved, and if it's solved in the wrong way it'll be 10 times harder than it is now, and it's already really fucking hard.
I am so sick of people capitulating to brexiteers who won a very narrow vote on lies, and i am deeply, deeply disappointed in Corbyn for not condemning it from the start.
Their message is literally that the tory deal is a disaster/failure and if Labour can't get into power then the tory deal needs to go to a public in a referendum (for which Labour will back remain).
I voted remain in the first referendum but I also get that if Labour thinks they can attempt to secure a reasonable exit deal then they should be given a chance, even if they end up failing. I know that some labour voters didn't vote the same way as me and their side won. They should be appeased by their own party, no matter how shitty that may seem to die hard 'remain or get fucked' ultras. Labour shouldn't (and won't) stand on a platform that craps on a whole part of its base. I also understand that failing for Labour won't mean crashing out of the EU, it'll likely mean staying in.
You're right though, it's not possible to please both sides of the Brexit debate. We should be working on delivering something for those that won the first referendum that isn't a damaging tory Brexit and won't fuck up the economy (risking lives).
If their message sounds weak it's because it's actually rooted in the reality of what the Labour party represents. If you can't agree with that then you just shouldn't vote Labour. But that won't be Jeremy Corbyn's fault.
You think centrists and conservatives will let Brexit go? It's the perfect smoke screen for austerity. Brexit won't be solved for another 15 years at least.
Who are "the centrists"? The lib dems?
I don't think anybody wants this Brexit issue to drag on any longer from the socialist remainer to the neo-con brexiteer.
Nothing can get done during this period which is why we need very very clear statements of intent from Corbyn right now so he can get in.
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