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BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson
- Thread starter Uzzy
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A couple of things:
1) Taking a triangulated centre point as your political position on a issue by issue basis is very different that having that form your entire worldview.
2) The centre point you alight on is defined by the "extreme" positions you reject.
Centrists have a habit of pitting the most extreme right wing views against the most milquetoast left wing views, then settling happily into the centre-right and declaring that the middle
Yeah maybe, particularly the sort of popular clowns you see on twitter, and the BBC's approach to "balanced" reporting.
However I bet there are many people within the UK that define themselves as centrists, e.g. Lib Dem supporters, that aren't doing that. I bet if you sat in a pub and had a political discussion with a centrist and a tory, you'd have more in common with the centrist than the tory.
I just wish we used better names to label things we take issue with, as it stands I do still feel American twitter and politics is generally making political discussion in the world more toxic and more polarising as we start seeing everything through their specific lens, and yes I do take issue with both sides for doing that!
You do know what happened the last time the LibDem governed. Or did you just wake up from a coma?
The Lib Dem's didn't govern, the tory government governed and were in coalition with the Lib Dems.
I still think I have more in common with a Lib Dem than a Tory, I mean, that's just easy to understand right?
Centrist as an insult is a typical US/UK bastardization, to the point it is void of meaning.
On the continent, Centrists were (still are), for the most part, Christian democrat center-right style political party (you may acknowledge European radical socialists as center-left, but the term itself and implications varies heavily depending on the country), mostly progressive on social issues, liberal on economics with a heavy dose of regulations and social safety nets and (not in Germany) secularists in spite of their Christian roots. Sometimes voting with one side of the spectrum or the other depending on the subject.. (and thus, never getting into power anywhere, in coalition sometimes)
The "centrist" as a insult or short-cut to dismiss unpleasant arguments is a typical US/UK idiotic "you're not with us therefore you are the devil" stance.
On the continent, Centrists were (still are), for the most part, Christian democrat center-right style political party (you may acknowledge European radical socialists as center-left, but the term itself and implications varies heavily depending on the country), mostly progressive on social issues, liberal on economics with a heavy dose of regulations and social safety nets and (not in Germany) secularists in spite of their Christian roots. Sometimes voting with one side of the spectrum or the other depending on the subject.. (and thus, never getting into power anywhere, in coalition sometimes)
The "centrist" as a insult or short-cut to dismiss unpleasant arguments is a typical US/UK idiotic "you're not with us therefore you are the devil" stance.
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Just because there is a worse option doesn't make your position good. You have the false understanding of dialectics that I was talking about.
An addendum, spending 3 years in Poland and being with my Polish partner for 4 years really opened my eyes in terms of just how different each country's politics can be, and in that respect quite confusing when you've grown up in the UK.
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I don't understand what you're saying here, if I offered you the choice between a Lib Dem government or a Tory government, which one would you choose?
That's some 1 + 1 = 52 response but I think we all known who you'd choose if given that binary option.
Sorry that I don't live in counterfactual world. I guess in counterfactual world UK centrism makes sense.
Sometimes i wonder if forcing every young European citizen to live from 18 to 22 in another EU country as a student or young worker would not make Europe a better place.
Just to understand, you know, that shit is complicated and how pointless some of our national short sighted struggles are.
Here i go benevolent dictator again, thank god i'm not in charge.
"would you vote Lib Dem or Tory" after everything that's happened in the last decade is pretty much the political equivalent of what kind of bread do you want for your shit sandwich.
No one is arguing the Lib Dems are more extreme the Conservatives, the point is that their positions are extremely unhelpful because they're willing to compromise on things they shouldn't.
In fact their presence in politics, more than any other party, is the reason we need to get rid of FPTP. They're absolutely not an alternative for Labour votes regardless of how people want to dress them up, 2010 was the final nail in that coffin.
No one is arguing the Lib Dems are more extreme the Conservatives, the point is that their positions are extremely unhelpful because they're willing to compromise on things they shouldn't.
In fact their presence in politics, more than any other party, is the reason we need to get rid of FPTP. They're absolutely not an alternative for Labour votes regardless of how people want to dress them up, 2010 was the final nail in that coffin.
Look if it was a choice between Lib Dem and Labour, it'd be Labour no question and if I ever protest vote it'd be for Greens.
That being said, Lib Dems only govt would in general do less of a fuckrie than a Tory only government. The coalition like it or not, was a compromise and they did have to compromise, however it was easier for them to do that as they are closer to the tories ideologically than Labour are to the tories.
On their own, yeah they'd do some problematic shit but it'd be far less problematic than what the tories would and have done.
You're proving my point, the solution isn't to say "I'd pick Lib Dem" but "oh my god this system is a nightmare burn it all down".
You mean voting system?
I mean yeah I get the negativity of FPTP but PR also opens the door to the worst parts of small parties, such as the Brexit party, and leads to more coalitions. Such as a Tory/DUP/Brexit party coalition.
That's the risk you take when you have a representative democracy, but it also means you energise people to vote when they feel it actually makes a difference and their alternative is a protest vote that amounts to hari kiri
Yeah I generally agree, at least you could vote for the party you actually wanted to.
Edit: Sorry for all the spam for when UK people wake up.
There was in interesting study where self declared centrists in the UK were asked questions on their political stances.
Most of them were up turned out to be authoritarian and socially conservative.
Links to the study in the article.
Most of them were up turned out to be authoritarian and socially conservative.
Links to the study in the article.
And economically left, apparently. That chimes with the mythical study I may have invented in my head about favouring policies that tend left in an economic sense when party/leader names were not attached to them.
Yeah.. no. It's not even close and this kind of aggressive, simplistic argument isn't remotely persuasive for what it's worth.
You mean like with Labour and their various fudge positions on Brexit?
The Liberal Democrats in the future are no more dictated by what happened in 2010 than Labour are by what happened in the 00s. More over, the rewriting of history over 2010 is so tiresome at this stage. Most people may have forgotten the circumstances, but practically, we were either looking at a minority Conservative government followed by GE, or the coalition we got. There's plenty the LDs got wrong in that period, but the notion that everything would have been dandy had they sat on their hands or tried to form a dysfunctional rainbow coalition involving about six different parties is so ridiculously stupid. Whether the LDs should have gone into coalition is debatable, but the thinking it was necessarily bad for our country seems quite naive. The most likely outcome would have been a majority Conservative government later that year.
We went through this song and dance when TIG/CUK was just a twinkle in Chukka's eye, and all the polling was saying a "Centrist" party was what the UK was crying out for.
Everyone* thinks thinks they're closer to the centre than they probably are. Everyone wants to believe that their views are in the sensible middle.
*Obviously not everyone, some people know they are far left / right and happy with that.
Thankyou! I was going to have to dig this up myself.
People who define themselves as Centrists tend to be more extremist than those they deride as extremists.
Given that "centrist" is now (as this thread constantly evidences) used largely as a pejorative, you might expect some funny results if polling self-declared centrists. If you were instead to poll people who were branded "centrist" by others, say your Tom Watsons and Ed Milibandses, you'd probably get pretty different results.
Boris sorted it, he believes in Britain.
But politics is so simple and why can't people be like me!!!!
Just waiting for the Boris circus to roll into town.
I don't think people like Ed from the centre left are centrists, the most you can fault them for is over use of triangulation.
Equally, people that are called centrists tend to not be particularly close to the political centre, as it's typically a slur from those on the 'left' to attack those also on the left who aren't 'left' enough.
A prejudice I have is that a fair few people 'on the left' probably aren't so radically different in some senses from the despised centrists. I mean, do you want revolution? That's a fairly big marker of difference, and I suspect many do not. Do you want redistribution? Yes, but how? Etc. If someone's saying 'both sides' to, as above, Charlottesville, then sure, no thanks, but if they're saying 'I don't think this particular leader is the right one for a party' they're not necessarily saying 'fuck the poor', or if they're saying 'I agree with the Lib Dems on X' it doesn't necessarily mean they love Thatcher. (They might, but I'd suggest it's not super likely).
I also think a key axis here is political engagement. Sure, there is an idea that disengagement is a false notion, in that disengagement is essentially acquiescence is essentially complicity, but I think a lot of people don't think too hard about stuff and rely on relatively wooly notions that guide their general political behaviour. That's not something you can wave away overnight, nor is it morally indefensible - even as I myself find it frustrating, I have to admit my own numerous limitations and prejudices.
On the flipside, there is complacency - I myself am guilty of it - and I can understand why that's so aggravating. I have friends who are far more political (and radically so) and they have a different emotional connection with it all. But that doesn't mean we can't have a good argument that doesn't devolve into hateful bile, and it doesn't mean we're entirely at odds at all times.
I also think a key axis here is political engagement. Sure, there is an idea that disengagement is a false notion, in that disengagement is essentially acquiescence is essentially complicity, but I think a lot of people don't think too hard about stuff and rely on relatively wooly notions that guide their general political behaviour. That's not something you can wave away overnight, nor is it morally indefensible - even as I myself find it frustrating, I have to admit my own numerous limitations and prejudices.
On the flipside, there is complacency - I myself am guilty of it - and I can understand why that's so aggravating. I have friends who are far more political (and radically so) and they have a different emotional connection with it all. But that doesn't mean we can't have a good argument that doesn't devolve into hateful bile, and it doesn't mean we're entirely at odds at all times.
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They aren't comparable though - unless you think people are born centrists. When a person is mocked for their beliefs or policy, they are at minimum being mocked over something that is their fault
FPTP has given the UK one coalition government and one S&C government since 2010. It has also forced the Tories to make their rhetoric more extreme in pursuit of UKIP/Brexit party votes, while then also giving them absolute power over parliament with no inclination to compromise with any opposition parties
Its a shit winner-takes-all system that any civilised country should really be ashamed of maintaining
I get the agency point, I was just quibbling over 'that's how pejoratives work'. Pejoratives can also be completely unjust re: agency, e.g. racism, homophobia, etc.
Sure, but if this is the point you are making then its a semantic one that isn't really adding much. You know that pejorative was being used the context that a person is being mocked or insulted for the way they behave
nah, i wouldn't want to be forced to live in another EU country as a British Citizen that's ethnically Turkish. UK diet racism i can handle, the continent's full-fat? Miss me with that shit.
Why not force the old pricks to do so instead? They are the problem
It was a quibble, but I think it's interesting to consider the logic of 'perjoratives are deserved'. It's not immediately relevant to Brexit, no, but I think it's a revealing stance in our discourse.
The real reason centrist has become a widely-used term in the UK is that the two parties have adopted more extreme right and left-wing positions due to Corbyn and Brexit, abandoning the idea that you win elections by triangulating around what the majority of the population already think.
Using centrist as a pejorative is an obvious consequence when people try to justify more extreme positions. It's just the mirror of people with more centre-ground policies using communist or fascist as a pejorative.
This has nothing to do with how people self-identify, since self-identification as a centrist has little or correlation with your actual views (see that study above, where the "all population" and "I'm a centrist" left-right scores are practically identical). Many self-identified centrists are actually very left or very right wing, but just don't bother to vote for some reason.
What that study does show is that regardless of how you self-identify, the population really does follow a bell-curve around a centre point. Centrism is the idea that you win by appealing to the people in that centre point, so you 'win' the largest part of the bell-curve.
During the Blair years, the Tories tried to motivate their right-wing base and failed. They lost a lot of centre-votes to Blair and didn't gain many right-wing votes. Recently, Corbyn tried to motivate the left-wing base and had some success. He lost some centre-votes to the Tories or UKIP or LibDems, but gained more votes from previously non-voting leftists.
Centrist as a pejorative is pretty useless or simply annoying, since people in the political centre (who presumably are the target of the insult) will often not identify as centrists, while people who do identify as centrists (who would be insulted by its pejorative use) are not very likely to actually hold centre-ground "both sides" views. So instead of an argument about policy, it just devolves into a "actually, I'm not a centrist" or "centrist doesn't mean that, it means this" arguments (much like this post...)
Using centrist as a pejorative is an obvious consequence when people try to justify more extreme positions. It's just the mirror of people with more centre-ground policies using communist or fascist as a pejorative.
This has nothing to do with how people self-identify, since self-identification as a centrist has little or correlation with your actual views (see that study above, where the "all population" and "I'm a centrist" left-right scores are practically identical). Many self-identified centrists are actually very left or very right wing, but just don't bother to vote for some reason.
What that study does show is that regardless of how you self-identify, the population really does follow a bell-curve around a centre point. Centrism is the idea that you win by appealing to the people in that centre point, so you 'win' the largest part of the bell-curve.
During the Blair years, the Tories tried to motivate their right-wing base and failed. They lost a lot of centre-votes to Blair and didn't gain many right-wing votes. Recently, Corbyn tried to motivate the left-wing base and had some success. He lost some centre-votes to the Tories or UKIP or LibDems, but gained more votes from previously non-voting leftists.
Centrist as a pejorative is pretty useless or simply annoying, since people in the political centre (who presumably are the target of the insult) will often not identify as centrists, while people who do identify as centrists (who would be insulted by its pejorative use) are not very likely to actually hold centre-ground "both sides" views. So instead of an argument about policy, it just devolves into a "actually, I'm not a centrist" or "centrist doesn't mean that, it means this" arguments (much like this post...)
I'd encourage the people who are mad they're being described as centrists to actually come up with some positions on things that aren't Brexit, as opposed to just "well both these sides are bad so the solution is the obvious '''sensible middle''' position" without actually saying what parts of the positions they have a problem with
Then explain how the country keeps shifting to the right
To quote the funny pics thread here.
YOu already have a lot of old pricks in the south of Spain voting Brexit.
I always considered myself a centre-bloke... However it turns out on the political compass I'm way more left wing than a majority of my friends - it's pretty interesting.
I'd like to do the kind of test they did to see if it gives me a similar answer.
Edit: Political Compass done again.
I'd like to do the kind of test they did to see if it gives me a similar answer.
Edit: Political Compass done again.
"Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31"
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Everyone paints the Lib Dems as ideological sellouts that betrayed everyone. So they compromised on a couple of manifesto things as part of the coalition - isn't that how they work?
Frankly I'd take them in a heartbeat over either of the other two main parties right now if they're able to prevent Brexit. Whatever damage they may have contributed to in the past is small beans in comparison to the good they could do. They could sit on their hands after that for 5 years and it'd be less damaging than brexit
Yeah man, austerity only killed *checks notes* 130,000 people, no big problem
Another classic tweet:
My point was that's how words change meaning. Something can undergo pejoration change from semantically positive to negative over time (or vice versa - amelioration, e.g. 'knight'). Centrist has become a pejorative again through the behaviour of people calling themselves centrists. Your example was a racial slur, completely different ballpark in the structures and attitudes that form them.
Unless they're Jo Swinson :P
oh no
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