But sometimes, the truth is in the middle.
That's what annoys me the most, yes both sidesing Charlottesville is fucking bad, but this approach and the words chosen to turn in to a pejorative is starting to suggest that wanting to listen to both sides of any argument is a toxic thing to do.
I think the "Centrists" rhetoric works well in US discourse and makes sense there but I do worry it's going to lead to people being laughed at for actually wanting to hear both sides on a totally different issue where hearing both sides is generally a good thing to do.
Yeah maybe, particularly the sort of popular clowns you see on twitter, and the BBC's approach to "balanced" reporting.A couple of things:
1) Taking a triangulated centre point as your political position on a issue by issue basis is very different that having that form your entire worldview.
2) The centre point you alight on is defined by the "extreme" positions you reject.
Centrists have a habit of pitting the most extreme right wing views against the most milquetoast left wing views, then settling happily into the centre-right and declaring that the middle
You do know what happened the last time the LibDem governed. Or did you just wake up from a coma?However I bet there are many people within the UK that define themselves as centrists, e.g. Lib Dem supporters, that aren't doing that. I bet if you sat in a pub and had a political discussion with a centrist and a tory, you'd have more in common with the centrist than the tory.
The Lib Dem's didn't govern, the tory government governed and were in coalition with the Lib Dems.You do know what happened the last time the LibDem governed. Or did you just wake up from a coma?
Just because there is a worse option doesn't make your position good. You have the false understanding of dialectics that I was talking about.The Lib Dem's didn't govern, the tory government goverened and were in coalition with the Lib Dems.
I still think I have more in common with a Lib Dem than a Tory, I mean, that's just easy to understand right?
An addendum, spending 3 years in Poland and being with my Polish partner for 4 years really opened my eyes in terms of just how different each country's politics can be, and in that respect quite confusing when you've grown up in the UK.Centrist as an insult is a typical US/UK bastardization, to the point it is void of meaning.
On the continent, Centrists were (still are), for the most part, Christian democrat center-right style political party (you may acknowledge European radical socialists as center-left, but the term itself and implications varies heavily depending of the country), mostly progressive on social issues, liberal on economics with a heavy dose of regulations and social safety nets and (not in Germany) secularists in spite of their Christian roots. Sometimes voting with one side of the spectrum or the other depending of the subject.. (and thus, never getting into power anywhere, in coalition sometimes)
The "centrist" as a insult or short-cut to dismiss unpleasant arguments is a typical US/UK idiotic "you're not with us therefore you are the devil" stance.
I don't understand what you're saying here, if I offered you the choice between a Lib Dem government or a Tory government, which one would you choose?Just because there is a worse option doesn't make your position good. You have the false understanding of dialectics that I was talking about.
That's some 1 + 1 = 52 response but I think we all known who you'd choose if given that binary option.
Sorry that I don't live in counterfactual world. I guess in counterfactual world UK centrism makes sense.That's some 1 + 1 = 52 response but I think we all known who you'd choose if given that binary option.
Sometimes i wonder if forcing every young European citizen to live from 18 to 22 in another EU country as a student or young worker would not make Europe a better place.An addendum, spending 3 years in Poland and being with my Polish partner for 4 years really opened my eyes in terms of just how different each countries politics can be, and in that respect quite confusing when you've grown up in the UK.
Look if it was a choice between Lib Dem and Labour, it'd be Labour no question and if I ever protest vote it'd be for Greens."would you vote Lib Dem or Tory" after everything that's happened in the last decade is pretty much the political equivalent of what kind of bread do you want for your shit sandwich.
No one is arguing the Lib Dems are more extreme the Conservatives, the point is that their positions are extremely unhelpful because they're willing to compromise on things they shouldn't.
In fact their presence in politics, more than any other party, is the reason we need to get rid of FPTP. They're absolutely not an alternative for Labour votes regardless of how people want to dress them up, 2010 was the final nail in that coffin.
Look if it was a choice between Lib Dem and Labour, it'd be Labour no question and if I ever protest vote it'd be for Greens.
That being said, Lib Dems only govt would in general do less of a fuckrie than a Tory only government. The coalition like it or not, was a compromise and they did have to compromise, however it was easier for them to do that as they are closer to the tories ideologically than Labour are to the tories.
On their own, yeah they'd do some problematic shit but it'd be far less problematic than what the tories would and have done.
You mean voting system?You're proving my point, the solution isn't to say "I'd pick Lib Dem" but "oh my god this system is a nightmare burn it all down".
You mean voting system?
I mean yeah I get the negativity of FPTP but PR also opens the door to the worst parts of small parties, such as the Brexit party, and leads to more coalitions. Such as a Tory/DUP/Brexit party coalition.
Yeah I generally agree, at least you could vote for the party you actually wanted to.That's the risk you take when you have a representative democracy, but it also means you energise people to vote when they feel it actually makes a difference and their alternative is a protest vote that amounts to hari kiri
There was in interesting study where self declared centrists in the UK were asked questions on their political stances.
Most of them were up turned out to be authoritarian and socially conservative.
Links to the study in the article.
"would you vote Lib Dem or Tory" after everything that's happened in the last decade is pretty much the political equivalent of what kind of bread do you want for your shit sandwich.
No one is arguing the Lib Dems are more extreme the Conservatives, the point is that their positions are extremely unhelpful because they're willing to compromise on things they shouldn't.
In fact their presence in politics, more than any other party, is the reason we need to get rid of FPTP. They're absolutely not an alternative for Labour votes regardless of how people want to dress them up, 2010 was the final nail in that coffin.
Yeah maybe, particularly the sort of popular clowns you see on twitter, and the BBC's approach to "balanced" reporting.
However I bet there are many people within the UK that define themselves as centrists, e.g. Lib Dem supporters, that aren't doing that. I bet if you sat in a pub and had a political discussion with a centrist and a tory, you'd have more in common with the centrist than the tory.
I just wish we used better names to label things we take issue with, as it stands I do still feel American twitter and politics is generally making political discussion in the world more toxic and more polarising as we start seeing everything through their specific lens, and yes I do take issue with both sides for doing that!
There was in interesting study where self declared centrists in the UK were asked questions on their political stances.
Most of them were up turned out to be authoritarian and socially conservative.
Links to the study in the article.
Given that "centrist" is now (as this thread constantly evidences) used largely as a pejorative, you might expect some funny results if polling self-declared centrists. If you were instead to poll people who were branded "centrist" by others, say your Tom Watsons and Ed Milibandses, you'd probably get pretty different results.There was in interesting study where self declared centrists in the UK were asked questions on their political stances.
Most of them were up turned out to be authoritarian and socially conservative.
Links to the study in the article.
Boris sorted it, he believes in Britain.
Yeah.. no. It's not even close and this kind of aggressive, simplistic argument isn't remotely persuasive for what it's worth.
That's why they're called centrists not Tories you dummyThe Lib Dem's didn't govern, the tory government governed and were in coalition with the Lib Dems.
I still think I have more in common with a Lib Dem than a Tory, I mean, that's just easy to understand right?
People who define themselves as Centrists tend to be more extremist than those they deride as extremists.
Just on the logic of pejoratives: not necessarily... I mean, is 'chink' the 'fault' of Chinese people?
And before anyone fucking starts, no I am not comparing the two in terms of moral import.
You mean voting system?
I mean yeah I get the negativity of FPTP but PR also opens the door to the worst parts of small parties, such as the Brexit party, and leads to more coalitions. Such as a Tory/DUP/Brexit party coalition.
I get the agency point, I was just quibbling over 'that's how pejoratives work'. Pejoratives can also be completely unjust re: agency, e.g. racism, homophobia, etc.They aren't comparable though - unless you think people are born centrists. When a person is mocked for their beliefs or policy, they are at minimum being mocked over something that is their fault
I get the agency point, I was just quibbling over 'that's how pejoratives work'. Pejoratives can also be completely unjust re: agency, e.g. racism, homophobia, etc.
Sometimes i wonder if forcing every young European citizen to live from 18 to 22 in another EU country as a student or young worker would not make Europe a better place.
Just to understand, you know, that shit is complicated and how pointless some of our national short sighted struggles are.
Here i go benevolent dictator again, thank god i'm not in charge.
Sometimes i wonder if forcing every young European citizen to live from 18 to 22 in another EU country as a student or young worker would not make Europe a better place.
Just to understand, you know, that shit is complicated and how pointless some of our national short sighted struggles are.
Here i go benevolent dictator again, thank god i'm not in charge.
Sure, but if this is the point you are making then its a semantic one that isn't really adding much. You know that pejorative was being used the context that a person is being mocked or insulted for the way they behave
Wow.nah, i wouldn't want to be forced to live in another EU country as a British Citizen that's ethnically Turkish. UK diet racism i can handle, the continent's full-fat? Miss me with that shit.
They'd just end up here:Why not force the old pricks to do so instead? They are the problem
The real reason centrist has become a widely-used term in the UK is that the two parties have adopted more extreme right and left-wing positions due to Corbyn and Brexit, abandoning the idea that you win elections by triangulating around what the majority of the population already think.
Using centrist as a pejorative is an obvious consequence when people try to justify more extreme positions. It's just the mirror of people with more centre-ground policies using communist or fascist as a pejorative.
This has nothing to do with how people self-identify, since self-identification as a centrist has little or correlation with your actual views (see that study above, where the "all population" and "I'm a centrist" left-right scores are practically identical). Many self-identified centrists are actually very left or very right wing, but just don't bother to vote for some reason.
What that study does show is that regardless of how you self-identify, the population really does follow a bell-curve around a centre point. Centrism is the idea that you win by appealing to the people in that centre point, so you 'win' the largest part of the bell-curve.
During the Blair years, the Tories tried to motivate their right-wing base and failed. They lost a lot of centre-votes to Blair and didn't gain many right-wing votes. Recently, Corbyn tried to motivate the left-wing base and had some success. He lost some centre-votes to the Tories or UKIP or LibDems, but gained more votes from previously non-voting leftists.
Centrist as a pejorative is pretty useless or simply annoying, since people in the political centre (who presumably are the target of the insult) will often not identify as centrists, while people who do identify as centrists (who would be insulted by its pejorative use) are not very likely to actually hold centre-ground "both sides" views. So instead of an argument about policy, it just devolves into a "actually, I'm not a centrist" or "centrist doesn't mean that, it means this" arguments (much like this post...)
To quote the funny pics thread here.There was in interesting study where self declared centrists in the UK were asked questions on their political stances.
Most of them were up turned out to be authoritarian and socially conservative.
Links to the study in the article.
YOu already have a lot of old pricks in the south of Spain voting Brexit.Why not force the old pricks to do so instead? They are the problem
An old favourite
"Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31"
"would you vote Lib Dem or Tory" after everything that's happened in the last decade is pretty much the political equivalent of what kind of bread do you want for your shit sandwich.
No one is arguing the Lib Dems are more extreme the Conservatives, the point is that their positions are extremely unhelpful because they're willing to compromise on things they shouldn't.
In fact their presence in politics, more than any other party, is the reason we need to get rid of FPTP. They're absolutely not an alternative for Labour votes regardless of how people want to dress them up, 2010 was the final nail in that coffin.
Yeah man, austerity only killed *checks notes* 130,000 people, no big problemEveryone paints the Lib Dems as ideological sellouts that betrayed everyone. So they compromised on a couple of manifesto things as part of the coalition - isn't that how they work?
Frankly I'd take them in a heartbeat over either of the other two main parties right now if they're able to prevent Brexit. Whatever damage they may have contributed to in the past is small beans in comparison to the good they could do. They could sit on their hands after that for 5 years and it'd be less damaging than brexit
I get the agency point, I was just quibbling over 'that's how pejoratives work'. Pejoratives can also be completely unjust re: agency, e.g. racism, homophobia, etc.
or if they're saying 'I agree with the Lib Dems on X' it doesn't necessarily mean they love Thatcher.