British schoolgirl that left to join ISIS in 2015 says she has no regrets but wants to return home to the UK

Siggy-P · Feb 20, 2019

Puroresu_kid said:
How are terrorists dealt with by the security forces currently? Tried and if guilty imprisoned. That's how a civil society deals with terrorists.

I just wanna correct you here (don't disagree with your point), the current method of dealing with terrorists by both Iraq and Kurdish forces is execution. Entire busses of ISIS prisoners have gone "accidently missing" and turned up empty on the way to other prisons or courts.

Also, in regards to ISIS wives, while shown mercy for the most part, that mercy is not shared with foreign brides.they are sentenced to death at a rate of about 40 women per 10 minutes. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis

Cas said:
Let's assume she can come back to Britain.

Lots of people then want her jailed and her baby removed, but what could she be charged with that would actually imprison her for any meaningful length of time? And how could they remove her baby from her?

I believe that's part of the issue, the UK doesn't have a good way to deal with radicalized people who haven't acted with violence. They would be imprisoning her on her ideology and support for an extremist group only. I don't think the UK could effectively keep her jailed for very long or remove her parental rights. But maybe I'm wrong and there are very harsh penalties for nonviolent supporters of isis?

The charge for joining a terrorist organisation is 10 years. The charge for encouraging terrorism is 7 years. And if she's stupid enough to say that she helped her husband do or prepare anything related to ISIS you can slap a lifetime sentence on top.

There's really a whole lot she can be charged for if you wanted to. There's no loopholes so much as vague guidelines for letting someone off easy.

Timmm · Feb 20, 2019

Lewpy said:
Yeah, I thought that was an odd word to use. If finding someone's weak justification for crimes against humanity is deemed as prejudice, then I think there seems to be some projection going on.

nekkid said:
I'm prejudiced against murderers and rapists, too, then!

Whenever I see a conviction, I immediately judge them negatively.

There is no evidence she has murdered or raped anyone, or committed "crimes against humanity"

There is plenty of evidence she was groomed, radicalised, watched her children (which may have been born to an adult father when she was only 16), and witnessed a load of death and violence in Syria

The very fact the two of you jumped to those conclusions is prejudice btw

nekkid · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
There is no evidence she has murdered or raped anyone, or committed "crimes against humanity"

There is plenty of evidence she was groomed, radicalised, watched her children (which may have been born to an adult father when she was only 16), and witnessed a load of death and violence in Syria

The very fact the two of you jumped to those conclusions is prejudice btw

I never said she was a rapist or murderer...

Deleted member 19003 · Feb 20, 2019

Siggy-P said:
I just wanna correct you here (don't disagree with your point), the current method of dealing with terrorists by both Iraq and Kurdish forces is execution. Entire busses of ISIS prisoners have gone "accidently missing" and turned up empty on the way to other prisons or courts.

Also, in regards to ISIS wives, while shown mercy for the most part, that mercy is not shared with foreign brides.they are sentenced to death at a rate of about 40 women per 10 minutes. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis

The charge for joining a terrorist organisation is 10 years. The charge for encouraging terrorism is 7 years. And if she's stupid enough to say that she helped her husband do or prepare anything related to ISIS you can slap a lifetime sentence on top.

There's really a whole lot she can be charged for if you wanted to. There's no loopholes so much as vague guidelines for letting someone off easy.

Oh good, so she could definitely get a lengthy sentence and have her child removed? Then the UK should have probably brought her back and saved the child.

Lashley · Feb 20, 2019

I feel for the baby, but she can fuck off tbh

mikeys_legendary · Feb 20, 2019

I don't think it's a good idea. I'm not from the UK but I know there is an American woman in a similar situation. I don't think she should be allowed to return without heavy surveillance.

And by that I mean they get zero privacy when they leave their home for at least a few years. I understand that people make mistakes but this isn't someone who blew past a stop sign, these are people who essentially denounced the West in favor of a radical regime that is openly hostile towards us.

Every fiber of my being says let them stay over there, but with proper surveillance I can see letting them come back.

DryCreek · Feb 20, 2019

ZealousD · Feb 20, 2019

Hodgy said:
i dont think defending murderers is a crime? however abhorrent defending IS is, i doubt its illegal.

people defend the US and UK governments bombing civvies too.

Her age does not absolve her of any moral failings vis-a-vis murder or joining a terrorist organization. This was the primary point.

Her crime is in intentionally joining and then aiding and abetting a terrorist organization.

Timmm · Feb 20, 2019

nekkid said:
I never said she was a rapist or murderer...

No, just directly compared her to them

Hodgy said:
i dont think defending murderers is a crime? however abhorrent defending IS is, i doubt its illegal.

people defend the US and UK governments bombing civvies too.

No Hodgy you misunderstand, they're Terrorists, not civilians!

Deleted member 5028 · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
There is no evidence she has murdered or raped anyone, or committed "crimes against humanity"

There is plenty of evidence she was groomed, radicalised, watched her children (which may have been born to an adult father when she was only 16), and witnessed a load of death and violence in Syria

The very fact the two of you jumped to those conclusions is prejudice btw

She also says she doesn't regret going, nor is she affected by the sight of a severed head in a bin any longer. There's shit like this which paints a very particular viewpoint of someone.

nekkid · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
No, just directly compared her to them

No I didn't.

DryCreek · Feb 20, 2019

mutantmagnet · Feb 20, 2019

ZealousD said:
Her age does not absolve her of any moral failings vis-a-vis murder or joining a terrorist organization. This was the primary point.

Her crime is in intentionally joining and then aiding and abetting a terrorist organization.

Actually killing someone can't be conflated with joining a group. Don't bother with that pointless and wrong argument.

The issue with her is how ok she is with watching a group that beheads prisoners publicly and accepting of an ideology that is anathema to the country she is getting back into.

Her age does matter in minimizing how harshly we should treat her for her actions because age does matter in how well you process information and make decisions. A person is fully developed until their 20s.

Timmm · Feb 20, 2019

SlipperyFishes said:
She also says she doesn't regret going, nor is she affected by the sight of a severed head in a bin any longer. There's shit like this which paints a very particular viewpoint of someone.

That she was radicalised as a child and is traumatised

nekkid said:
No I didn't.

How is the below not a comparison?

nekkid said:
I'm prejudiced against murderers and rapists, too, then!

Whenever I see a conviction, I immediately judge them negatively.

ZealousD · Feb 20, 2019

Hodgy said:
I'm not trying to absolve her of any crime! I'm trying to get her back to the UK so she can face justice!

If you feel like she should be locked up in a British jail for a very, very long time and her baby separated from her, then we are in agreement.

My original post that you quoted was specifically in response to the idea that because she was only 15 years old that she was too immature to understand the consequences of joining ISiS.

Siggy-P · Feb 20, 2019

This is going in circles.

She is obviously not a murderer or a rapist.

She is however, at 19 years of age, completely supportive of the mass-murderers and mass-rapists that she was alligned with.

Puroresu_kid · Feb 20, 2019

Siggy-P said:
I just wanna correct you here (don't disagree with your point), the current method of dealing with terrorists by both Iraq and Kurdish forces is execution. Entire busses of ISIS prisoners have gone "accidently missing" and turned up empty on the way to other prisons or courts.

Also, in regards to ISIS wives, while shown mercy for the most part, that mercy is not shared with foreign brides.they are sentenced to death at a rate of about 40 women per 10 minutes. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis

The charge for joining a terrorist organisation is 10 years. The charge for encouraging terrorism is 7 years. And if she's stupid enough to say that she helped her husband do or prepare anything related to ISIS you can slap a lifetime sentence on top.

There's really a whole lot she can be charged for if you wanted to. There's no loopholes so much as vague guidelines for letting someone off easy.

I mean in a civil society not Iraq where the rule of law does not apply. They round up anyone they think is ISIS and execute. No legal defense, no due process.

Executing wives, good grief.

DryCreek · Feb 20, 2019

Siggy-P · Feb 20, 2019

Puroresu_kid said:
I mean in a civil society not Iraq where the rule of law does not apply. They round up anyone they think is ISIS and others execute. No legal defense, no due process.

Executing wives, good grief.

Ah right, sorry. You said security forces so I assumed you meant the ISF (Iraq Security Forces).

DeltaRed · Feb 20, 2019

She probably wouldn't be safe in the UK if she was allowed back in and not sent to jail.

nekkid · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
How is the below not a comparison?

Because you implied some snap judgement because of her behaviour. And if that's the case then I make snap judgements about all kinds of people based on their behaviour.

Jie Li · Feb 20, 2019

I am not a British citizen. But if I am a Brit, I would say "Somebody want to take you? Go with them. Let Canada take you."

ZealousD · Feb 20, 2019

mutantmagnet said:
Actually killing someone can't be conflated with joining a group. Don't bother with that pointless and wrong argument.

"Hi, we're ISIS. We're an apocalyptic murder death cult that literally wants to take over the world in as violent of a manner as possible. Join us?"

Yeah I'm not going to pull punches on anybody that thinks this sounds like an attractive sales pitch.

Timmm · Feb 20, 2019

ZealousD said:
If you feel like she should be locked up in a British jail for a very, very long time and her baby separated from her, then we are in agreement.

My original post that you quoted was specifically in response to the idea that because she was only 15 years old that she was too immature to understand the consequences of joining ISiS.

She isn't, legally. She was groomed from the age of 13, which makes it harder for her to act like a normal 15 year old too

FWIW, I also think she should be brought back from the UK, attempts made to deradicalise her, and separated from the population until we are sure she is safe to be around other people. Its just important to remember she was a child who has been brainwashed, and spent 4 years in a warzone where she has watched 2 of her children die. I wouldn't expect a normal reaction for a person in this situation. And as she is British, we in the UK have a duty both to not burden other countries with her, and also to do our best to rehabilitate her if possible

DeltaRed said:
She probably wouldn't be safe in the UK if she was allowed back in and not sent to jail.

Probably yeah, I can see this becoming a lot like the situation with the killers of James Bulger

Sheepinator · Feb 20, 2019

Sorry if it's been answered in the previous 16 pages, but where will she end up? I read that the Govt can and does take away passports (which I agree with here), provided the person doesn't end up State-less, so where will she end up? Does she have rights to stay in another country via family, or what?

Timmm · Feb 20, 2019

nekkid said:
Because you implied some snap judgement because of her behaviour. And if that's the case then I make snap judgements about all kinds of people based on their behaviour.

And the examples you used are rapists and murderers, which are obviously loaded ones

mutantmagnet · Feb 20, 2019

ZealousD said:
"Hi, we're ISIS. We're an apocalyptic murder death cult that literally wants to take over the world in as violent of a manner as possible. Join us?"

Yeah I'm not going to pull punches on anybody that thinks this sounds like an attractive sales pitch.

You're not pulling punches. You're hamfisting a comparison between a fish and a turd.

Actually killing someone yourself isn't the same as associating with people who do kill people.

ZealousD · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
Whe isn't, legally. She was groomed from the age of 13, which makes it harder for her to act like a normal 15 year old too

So what, even though she was 15 when she joined up and she's 19 now, you think we should treat her like she's still 13?

Obviously her head is all screwed up. So are the heads of most criminals. Doesn't mean she's any less to blame for her actions.

Timmm · Feb 20, 2019

ZealousD said:
So what, even though she was 15 when she joined up and she's 19 now, you think we should treat her like she's still 13?

Obviously her head is all screwed up. So are the heads of most criminals. Doesn't mean she's any less to blame for her actions.

I would consider it a mitigating circumstance when evaluating any crimes she did or didn't do in a subsequent trial, yes.

Deleted member 5028 · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
Whe isn't, legally. She was groomed from the age of 13, which makes it harder for her to act like a normal 15 year old too

FWIW, I also think she should be brought back from the UK, attempts made to deradicalise her, and separated from the population until we are sure she is safe to be around other people. Its just important to remember she was a child who has been brainwashed, and spent 4 years in a warzone where she has watched 2 of her children die. I wouldn't expect a normal reaction for a person in this situation. And as she is British, we in the UK have a duty both to not burden other countries with her, and also to do our best to rehabilitate her if possible

Probably yeah, I can see this becoming a lot like the situation with the killers of James Bulger

Except her goal isn't to reintegrate into the U.K. as she lost two babies due to the environmental state she lived in, she's returning for this one to have a better chance of survival. That's not the child's fault obviously, but she's literally looking to make use of state aid if her living conditions were better in her camp, she'd never have tried to return.

How do you force someone to rehabilitate versus them telling you what you want to hear?

ZealousD · Feb 20, 2019

mutantmagnet said:
Actually killing someone yourself isn't the same as associating with people who do kill people.

On a pure surface level, yes, there is a difference between somebody who killed someone and somebody who didn't kill someone. It is true that A is not B.

Morally? I don't think there's very much difference between members of an apocalyptic death cult.

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

Sheepinator said:
Sorry if it's been answered in the previous 16 pages, but where will she end up? I read that the Govt can and does take away passports (which I agree with here), provided the person doesn't end up State-less, so where will she end up? Does she have rights to stay in another country via family, or what?

Bangladesh said" lol no, fuck off". Javid said yes, he'll continue with it because it's a nice distraction for the govt.

Timmm · Feb 20, 2019

SlipperyFishes said:
Except her goal isn't to reintegrate into the U.K. as she lost two babies due to the environmental state she lived in, she's returning for this one to have a better chance of survival. That's not the child's fault obviously, but she's literally looking to make use of state aid if her living conditions were better in her camp, she'd never have tried to return.

How do you force someone to rehabilitate versus them telling you what you want to hear?

I am not qualified to say that - we have psychologists and security experts who would be able to answer that question. Fundamentally, if she is unsafe to be around the public then keep her isolated, if not then let her out.

I certainly wouldn't solve it by either deporting her to Bangladesh, or leaving her in a refugee camp in Syria though

mutantmagnet · Feb 20, 2019

ZealousD said:
On a pure surface level, yes, there is a difference between somebody who killed someone and somebody who didn't kill someone. It is true that A is not B.

Morally? I don't think there's very much difference between members of an apocalyptic death cult.

Actually there is. If she was actually a murder my warning that Britain should consider revoking her citizenship would be based on the probability of her directly harming someone instead of the probability she'll be spreading violent propaganda. Shit talkers aren't likely to throw punches, so to speak.

Heshinsi · Feb 20, 2019

Jie Li said:
I am not a British citizen. But if I am a Brit, I would say "Somebody want to take you? Go with them. Let Canada take you."

That's cute.

Deleted member 12352 · Feb 20, 2019

On the one hand it's hard not to feel a bit of sympathy for someone who was in all likelihood pretty much taken in and brainwashed as a kid and/or didn't have the maturity to think about the consequences of joining up with these fuckers...

...but on the other hand, now that she's free of them and old enough to be given enough credit to know better, especially after some of the horrifying shit she sounds to have seen and lived through, she's still giving the thumbs up to the murders of innocent children in a country she is begging to be let back into? Saying she regrets nothing?

All I can think of here is that I hope the proper authorities of whichever country she's in/ends up in takes the baby off her so it at least has a chance of normality.

hobblygobbly · Feb 20, 2019

Today she said the Manchester terrorist attack was retaliation, what the fuck. Fucking terrorist.

Uzzy · Feb 20, 2019

If only there were a plan in place on how to deal with this sort of situation.

Well, a plan on how to deal with the Mail/Express headlines at least.

Simon21 · Feb 20, 2019

Where's the "grooming" talk come from? Either I've missed something or it's an incredibly kind way of phrasing it. Last I saw she essentially radicalised herself through internet videos/propaganda.

Not sure people here would be so willing to apply the same level of slack to an unrepentant teenage white supremacist radicalised through the same means.

Salty_Josh · Feb 20, 2019

Uzzy said:
If only there were a plan in place on how to deal with this sort of situation.

Well, a plan on how to deal with the Mail/Express headlines at least.

Lol. It's a shame she went to news outlets. Kind of fucked herself by allowing her case to be weaponised by British news "outlets"

DryCreek · Feb 20, 2019

nekkid · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
And the examples you used are rapists and murderers, which are obviously loaded ones

Sure, ok.

Lewpy · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
There is no evidence she has murdered or raped anyone, or committed "crimes against humanity"

There is plenty of evidence she was groomed, radicalised, watched her children (which may have been born to an adult father when she was only 16), and witnessed a load of death and violence in Syria

The very fact the two of you jumped to those conclusions is prejudice btw

What? I never said she committed crimes against humanity, I said she gave weak justification for crimes against humanity. So no, I didn't jump to conclusions.

Regardless of whether she was groomed or not since 13, it doesn't take away that as a 19 year old adult, she fully supports and justifies the actions of a terrorist group. As people get older and experience life, hindsight becomes clearer and if you are a truly good person you may see the error of your ways and realise you did some dickish things when you were younger.

However, some people are just narcissistic assholes, who will genuinely think their actions are always right. Not everyone is redeemable, there will always be good and bad in the world.

Deleted member 19003 · Feb 20, 2019

Uzzy said:
If only there were a plan in place on how to deal with this sort of situation.

Well, a plan on how to deal with the Mail/Express headlines at least.

Wow. So a slap on the wrist as long as it's proven she did not engage in violence. Go join a death cult, claim your fellow citizens deserved to die to terrorists, marry said terrorists and give them support, aid and children. Then come back to the UK with a slap on the wrist and some mandated classes. Like I said, they probably wouldn't give this awful woman any jail time or remove the baby. The child should be spared, but I do not blame the UK for denying her return knowing how little to no penalties will occur for her actions.

I should add, I do believe if she had shown true remorse and regret, and offered substantial assistance and info to her government to help fix her wrongs , then there could be good reason for a lighter sentence.

Timmm · Feb 20, 2019

Simon21 said:
Where's the "grooming" talk come from? Either I've missed something or it's an incredibly kind way of phrasing it. Last I saw she essentially radicalised herself through internet videos/propaganda.

You can be groomed on the internet? Read this anyway https://www.theguardian.com/comment...mima-begum-grooming-islamic-state-pregnant-uk

Simon21 said:
Not sure people here would be so willing to apply the same level of slack to an unrepentant teenage white supremacist radicalised through the same means.

Yeah, its reverse racism! That's exactly what it is. If only we could be more sympathetic to white supremacists.

nekkid said:
Sure, ok.

If I was to say "I disagree with nekkid. I also disagree with rapists and murderers" would you (rightly) be offended at the comparison with rapists and murderers, or focus on the fact that I am merely giving examples of things I disagree with?

Lewpy said:
What? I never said she committed crimes against humanity, I said she gave weak justification for crimes against humanity. So no, I didn't jump to conclusions.

I said it was prejudiced to not find her being desensitised to seeing a severed head in a bin a sign of trauma, you then brought up the crimes against humanity

Lewpy said:
Regardless of whether she was groomed or not since 13, it doesn't take away that as a 19 year old adult, she fully supports and justifies the actions of a terrorist group. As people get older and experience life, hindsight becomes clearer and if you are a truly good person you may see the error of your ways and realise you did some dickish things when you were younger.

However, some people are just narcissistic assholes, who will genuinely think their actions are always right. Not everyone is redeemable, there will always be good and bad in the world.

Her grooming is a mitigating circumstance. It was only 4 years ago, and represents a quarter of her life.

And ofc there will always be bad people in the world, that doesn't mean the UK should just dump her on Syria or Bangladesh. If she is incapable of ever being safe around others then she should be separated from the public. In the country that raised her and where she was radicalised in the first place (the UK).

Strangely enough, the only people here acting like she should just be released and free to do whatever are the people who think the UK is in the right here

Deleted member 19003 · Feb 20, 2019

Hodgy said:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brit-ex-isis-bride-who-14006853

past instances of this happening have seen people become useful in society once again

This woman was regreful very soon after she entered Syria and left soon after, asking for repentance and forgiveness. She disavowed isis entirely and divorced her terrorist husband. Shamima shows no such regret, she still supports their terrorist actions in Manchester and wants to support her husband still.

nitewulf · Feb 20, 2019

She will not be allowed in Bangladesh either. Rightfully so IMO.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/20/rights-of-shamima-begums-son-not-affected-says-javid

nekkid · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
If I was to say "I disagree with nekkid. I also disagree with rapists and murderers" would you (rightly) be offended at the comparison with rapists and murderers, or focus on the fact that I am merely giving examples of things I disagree with?

Depends on whether I'd enabled terrorism or given the thumbs up to the intentional bombing of children.

Simon21 · Feb 20, 2019

Timmm said:
Yeah, its reverse racism! That's exactly what it is. If only we could be more sympathetic to white supremacists.

That's exactly what I meant. You got me.

Prine · Feb 20, 2019

nitewulf said:
She will not be allowed in Bangladesh either. Rightfully so IMO.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/20/rights-of-shamima-begums-son-not-affected-says-javid

Indeed, why should they deal with our waste. Ridiculous

British schoolgirl that left to join ISIS in 2015 says she has no regrets but wants to return home to the UK

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