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British schoolgirl that left to join ISIS in 2015 says she has no regrets but wants to return home to the UK
- Thread starter AcademicSaucer
- Start date
Rules can be established for this, you know, like abandoning your country to join a terrorist organization bent on killing and destroying your country.
Should have taken the time to read instead of lashing out:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/br...rn-home-to-the-uk.99704/page-21#post-18675195
The very post you quoted was me refuting your claim that posters are calling for her to be "welcomed back with open arms".
From the sound of it she was a witness and maybe complicit in atrocities but didnt commit them herself.
Adding the fact she was 15 when she joined ISIS and I really doubt she would get a lot of prison time.
Exactly. Good luck convicting her for any atrocities, even if she committed those she wont go to jail for them unless she's stupid enough to admit to them, you'll never be able to get proof for those atrocities meaning you can't convict her on those. The only conviction you can realistically expect is a conviction for joining a terrorist organization, and since she did so at the age of 15 she'd be out in no time.
As has been said multiple times this girl isn't the first. Can we please stop painting a picture of a young girl being the world's worst terrorist when the UK has already dealt with returnees and guess what they are not all in prison.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...hreat-prosecute-nationality-a8790991.html?amp
You say that like some prison time wouldn't be a net positive here. If they can convict her, put her away for however long they are able. Otherwise, rehabilitate her if possible
Prison time followed by her being able to walk the streets of the UK freely while still believing in everything ISIS stands for. Sounds like a huge net negative to me.
What happened to her is textbook grooming. She was coerced into leaving home and traveling to Syria at 15 so that adult men could repeatedly rape and impregnate her.
I never said that. I said it's pointless having a trial. Your the one wants to put her on trial and lock her up. I think that would be a waste of the UK's taxpayers money.
As for the insults your attempt to patronise me in your first post and this in your last one -
"Thank god you're not in a position of power because this is black and white nonsense."
If you ain't mature enough to discuss this without insulting me then maybe you should stop posting.
There you have it. If just being there isn't an offense, then how can they justify rendering someone stateless with no trial, and no need to present evidence? Since the 2014 amendment, all they need do for anyone they don't like for any reason is say, "National security", present no evidence, no trial, and you're screwed. Whatever you think of the young woman, nobody should want the Govt to have that much unchecked power.
If you join a terrorist organisation, that's aim is ultimately the destruction of your own, I think the government has every right to make this as difficult as possible, even to go as far as to strip of your citizenship.
However in the UK, we believe people under a certain age cannot be held to the same way an adult is. She was and probably is still, heavily influenced by those that sort to abuse her, to coerce her into joining a cause she had little real understand of. So how can we hold her to the same account as an adult, when we make allowances for crimes, based on age and other circumstances already?
To her, I think we should bring her back. Her citizenship should be restored, but she should be forced to undertake psychiatric care and as our laws say it, be released only at her majesties pleasure. For those unaware, a plea of mental health being accepted, could mean you stay in an asylum for the rest of your life, only if your doctors say you are ready, you can be released.
As to the baby. This is tragic. The loss of a child is awful, but if the child had lived, I think the child at the very least, should have been given citizenship.
However in the UK, we believe people under a certain age cannot be held to the same way an adult is. She was and probably is still, heavily influenced by those that sort to abuse her, to coerce her into joining a cause she had little real understand of. So how can we hold her to the same account as an adult, when we make allowances for crimes, based on age and other circumstances already?
To her, I think we should bring her back. Her citizenship should be restored, but she should be forced to undertake psychiatric care and as our laws say it, be released only at her majesties pleasure. For those unaware, a plea of mental health being accepted, could mean you stay in an asylum for the rest of your life, only if your doctors say you are ready, you can be released.
As to the baby. This is tragic. The loss of a child is awful, but if the child had lived, I think the child at the very least, should have been given citizenship.
"When interviewed, Begum revealed that she was nine-months pregnant and hoped to return to the UK to raise her child, but did not regret her decision to join ISIL. She said she had been unfazed by seeing the head of a beheaded man as he was "an enemy of Islam", but believes that ISIL did not deserve victory because of their corruption and oppression.
Begum was interviewed by BBC correspondent Quentin Sommerville on 18 February. During the interview, Begum asked for forgiveness and claimed that she still supports "some British values". She said she was inspired to join ISIL by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also of "the good life" under the group. However, Somerville noted that she continues to espouse the ISIL ideology and justify its atrocities. When asked about the Manchester Arena bombing, she claimed it was wrong to kill innocent people, but that ISIL deemed it justified as retaliation for the coalition bombing of ISIL-held areas. When questioned about the rape, enslavement and murder of Yazidi women she claimed: "Shia do the same in Iraq"."
Granted, this is from a Wikipedia article, but if everything above is true...she shouldn't be roaming the streets of UK. She's an adult now too, so....
For what reason? It sounds like her world view is fucked, for years of manipulation and abuse. The law makes allowances for exactly these situations.
There are people in the UK currently that have far more vial opinions then that.
You have to be joking if you can't still how she may be a threat. She is and was unfazed by the beheadings to the point it was a huge factor she joined them. She still feels ISIL were right and we have nothing but her word that she never took part in any of it herself. Since she already left to join them there's an established possibility for her to act on any urges. She basically defended the Manchester bombing with a 'but'.
The concept of grooming implies active participation by a manipulating party. She was no more groomed than alt-right white supremacist teen shitheels are by choosing to spend their time on /pol and Stormfront. Frankly I find the "grooming" narrative to be a little problematic; the idea that because she's a young Muslim woman then she must have been particularly vulnerable and was therefore "groomed" (language typically applied to the Muslim community), and not accountable for her decisions.
Which isn't to say she isn't Britain's problem to deal with, but she is entirely responsible for her own actions.
Sympathising with a person who was groomed, lured to a warzone, and then married to someone when she was 15, yes
Not sure why me being from Manchester should change that, but ok
If those 'alt-right shitheels' are as young as she was then yes they are also being groomed. However, since there is a sexual exploitation element to her case, it's a much more serious and insidious form of grooming than just being indoctrinated into a hate group or a violent gang. It has nothing to do with her specifically being Muslim or being female, and everything to do with her young age and the sexual exploitation, that's what makes what happened to her in particular so heinous. Her being 15 DOES make her more vulnerable, and there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that; rather, there is something wrong with ignoring that fact when examining her case. Also wtf is this bullshit about the term 'grooming' being used to refer more to Muslims, that's not true at all. It's used to refer to when minors are exploited. It's being applied to her because she was 15.
If a 15 year old white girl was convinced by white supremacists online to come to their compound in another state, and then was repeatedly raped and impregnated there, you would not see the level of vitriol and lack of empathy that this girl is getting, despite that circumstance being virtually identical to this one. People refuse to see her as a victim because of her race and religion.
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That's not an insult (and certainly not a personal insult) that's me saying you are making this a binary right and wrong, black and white issue, when if you stop to think about it, it's clearly is just one huge grey mess.
...And it's not a waste of UK tax payers money. How can the right to a fair trial by a jury of your peers (a fundamental human right), and the resulting punishment/sentence ever be considered a waste of money?
The government waste enough of that with things like Brexit anyway, so I don't think the detainment and rehabilitation of one person is going to make that much difference to the country.
How old are you out of curiosity? 16-25? Over 25? Over 35?
Don't tell me what I find insulting buddy.
It is a waste of the taxpayer's money. They're gonna have to pay for this woman's defence. They're gonna have to pay for her imprisonment and they're gonna have to pay for her lifetime on social security. It's not only a waste of the taxpayer's money. It's a disgrace to ask the British people to support this woman for the rest of her life. She made her choice.
I ain't interested in your whataboutisms and it's none of your business how old I am.
Yeah, that's what happens when you fail your citizens, especially minors. The idea that you think a 15 year old sex slave 'made her choices' displays a disgusting lack of empathy.
So you're cool with the govt deciding about anyone, "No evidence needed, no trial needed, you're stateless because we said so." That's the slope you're standing on.
No it isn't, there is plenty of empirical evidence that people can be deradicalized, the British government has had success doing so with people who've done far worse than her. The fact that she was abused and exploited is not up for debate either.
Look, revoking her membership was a stupid idea based on gut instinct (hell, it was mine) but can we please stop this "groomed" narrative? It doesn't mean someone who falls for dumb bullshit online. She wasn't "groomed" anymore than most of the alt-right was "groomed"
Her falling for dumb bullshit in this case just happens to have higher stakes than becoming an online shitlord.
Her falling for dumb bullshit in this case just happens to have higher stakes than becoming an online shitlord.
She was groomed, she was convinced to leave her home country as a teenager for the sole purpose of being sexually exploited.
She made her choice but she is our problem. She always was. As a country we should have done more to prevent the radicalisation of children and it's our responsibility to bring her in, let our justice system figure out a suitable punishment and go from there. By not bringing her back, we're just failing her again.
The cost of it is irrelevant.
Again: Who decides when no trial is needed? Who is to be trusted in a case like this? Who should supercede due process and just overrule the law in this case?
She is evil. You cannot heal a rotten soul. And honestly she isn't worth the effort or resources.
Thing is, she was brainwashed not groomed. There's no guarantee that coding isn't still in her head and if she comes back and goes to jail she can try and convert people there. There really isn't any safe way of keeping her arrested for the crimes she's commited other than house arrest forever, but even then you can't be sure what she might do.
If in this leftist board we can't agree on what should happen with her, imagine what the people in the UK are thinking. Gotta be much worse.
She's your country responsibility. You don't get to dump your criminals wherever the fuck you want. She's a UK citizen and should be able to return to the UK, and then rightfully be arrested. The only disgrace here is thinking the UK can dump their garbage wherever they want.
Medical science, psychology, and sociological studies all disagree with you, but I'm sure you are able to judge the 'soul' of someone you've never met. Do you know what its like to be groomed and coerced into something horrible that young, to be repeatedly abused over years like that?
She was absolutely groomed, she was coerced into a terrorist group as a teenager so they could abuse her, what the hell do you think grooming is if what happened to her doesn't qualify?
Also the 'we can't be sure what she might do' could apply to anyone. Why try to rehabilitate or ever let anyone out of prison by that standard? It's an impossible standard, especially for someone in her situation. It's inhumane and flies in the face of what we know about deradicalization and rehabilitation based on years of study and practice.
When it comes to matters of criminal justice, this board is hardly progressive or leftist. This thread is proof enough of that.
Exactly. She will 100 percent end up raising her own home grown terrorists if she is given freedom.
For an analogy lots of pedophiles were groomed and abused as children. I don't see how this is why different. You are what you are. It doesn't matter how you got there.
Do you want to provide evidence for that claim or are you just going to continue to be dismissive without offering anything of substance?
Then don't give her freedom. She can rot in a cell for the rest of her life for what she did, but she should still be brought back here, tried and sentenced according to British law.
We know she doesn't regret what she did and she likely never will. We can't "save" her but we can sure as hell take care of her ourselves.
Nice rebuttal.
That's what I said. Let her in and lock her away. If she wants stay out of prison stay where she is.
Why are you so against due process?
What's the threshold of vileness for people to not be worth a trial, defence counsel, cost of prison, etc and banished to the phantom zone? Murder? Rape? Assault and battery? Tax evasion?
I don't know what else to say to you without getting extremely heated because what you've been saying this thread is incredibly offensive. You clearly have no idea what it's like to be abused, what that does to your psyche and how damaging that it can be. Your 'solution' of declaring people as having evil souls and labeling them a lost cause because they've been abused as children is absolutely disgusting. Your mindset perpetuates the suffering of millions of people. Decades of mental health research and therapy contradict you, but in your arrogance you think you know better. It's incredibly ignorant.
I never said that. All people that are abused don't become abusers or a lost csuse. I'm saying once you become an adult you are responsible for your actions regardless of your past. The safety and security of the country outweighs some misguided desire to save one individual.This woman clearly has no remorse and her views have not changed. I don't think she can be rehabilitated.
And you are wrong. The brain isn't fully developed until around 25 years of age, and even then the brain still changes over time and is malleable, just not as rapidly as it does in youth. People often age out of mental illnesses and disorders, and therapy and medication can do a ton to help people who have suffered from abuse and have disorders due to that abuse, even in adulthood. Hence why I'm saying you don't know what you are talking about, your assertion that she is beyond help is informed by nothing but your own arrogance.
You also asserted that the abuse someone has suffered is 'what they are' and that it is impossible to heal those wounds. You can't see how that's an incredibly offensive thing to say?
Why do you keep misquoting me? Either you have poor reading comprehension skills or are being really disingenuous.