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Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,305
There is no reason to repeatedly bring up the obvious fact that grooming requires she had to take steps to join ISIS unless you are trying to undermine the degree to which she was abused. If you aren't attempting to victim blame her, then stop doing it.

She should be placed into a deradicalization program. If there is no evidence of her committing a crime then she should not be imprisoned. That's not a controversial statement, you can't just imprison people because you don't like their ideology in the absence of a crime.

And this is where our wires were crossed then. She definitely needs to be deradicalized for sure but I do think that joining a terrorist organisation should have repercussions in and of itself that include jail. I mean people get jail for significantly less. It goes beyond ideology IMO when the group you are a part of is a terrorist faction responsible for countless deaths.

But that doesn't mean I think we should just jail her and forget either. Realistically that's probably more dangerous as she could radicalize others in prison. Or that she wasn't a victim in any sense. Just that personally I think joining ISIL should be grounds for charging with aiding a terrorist faction in itself.

I guess that's the root of where we disagree.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
And this is where our wires were crossed then. She definitely needs to be deradicalized for sure but I do think that joining a terrorist organisation should have repercussions in and of itself that include jail. I mean people get jail for significantly less. It goes beyond ideology IMO when the group you are a part of is a terrorist faction responsible for countless deaths.

But that doesn't mean I think we should just jail her and forget either. Realistically that's probably more dangerous as she could radicalize others in prison. Or that she wasn't a victim in any sense. Just that personally I think joining ISIL should be grounds for charging with aiding a terrorist faction in itself.

I guess that's the root of where we disagree.
Whether or not you or I think it should be a crime doesn't matter, because it's apparently not a crime under British law.
 

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,305
Whether or not you or I think it should be a crime doesn't matter, because it's apparently not a crime under British law.

Sure it isn't. That's where I was saying it seems odd and that it seems it probably should be. Let's say hypothetically that it was. It would have been easier to make the case for her citizenship since jail would be certain and the Tories doing their usual shit wouldn't have to worry so much about how the tabloids and their genuine hate for foreigners will rake them over the coals for it. Cause realistically Tory optics played a big part in her losing her citizenship.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Sure it isn't. That's where I was saying it seems odd and that it seems it probably should be. Let's say hypothetically that it was. It would have been easier to make the case for her citizenship since jail would be certain and the Tories doing their usual shit wouldn't have to worry so much about how the tabloids and their genuine hate for foreigners will rake them over the coals for it. Cause realistically Tory optics played a big part in her losing her citizenship.
But the reality is that her citizenship is being stripped for something that is not a crime under British law, and for which there are many extenuating circumstances. If your argument is that she would be better off if joining ISIS was a crime and she received a reasonable sentence considering her age and treatment at the hands of ISIS...then yes I agree with you. Her baby would likely still be alive for one, and she wouldn't be left stateless.

That said, it isn't a crime, so what they've done is unacceptable.
 

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,305
But the reality is that her citizenship is being stripped for something that is not a crime under British law, and for which there are many extenuating circumstances. If your argument is that she would be better off if joining ISIS was a crime and she received a reasonable sentence considering her age and treatment at the hands of ISIS...then yes I agree with you. Her baby would likely still be alive for one, and she wouldn't be left stateless.

That said, it isn't a crime, so what they've done is unacceptable.

Yeah that's exactly my arguement. I may have not worded it well getting there, but yeah essentially I think the scenario would have ended better if it was a punishable crime by default. And as you say her child would likely be alive since there wouldn't have been as much friction at all.

And you're right. Technically the government should be the ones in breach of law here since they've removed someone's citizenship for something they don't even have registered as a crime. Hell to go a step further they'd probably have had less friction revoking her citizenship too if it was a crime.

Our government all around has royally screwed the pooch (shock and awe it's the Tories afterall) and it's exposed a pretty big hole thei current laws.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Yeah that's exactly my arguement. I may have not worded it well getting there, but yeah essentially I think the scenario would have ended better if it was a punishable crime by default. And as you say her child would likely be alive since there wouldn't have been as much friction at all.

And you're right. Technically the government should be the ones in breach of law here since they've removed someone's citizenship for something they don't even have registered as a crime. Hell to go a step further they'd probably have had less friction revoking her citizenship too if it was a crime.

Our government all around has royally screwed the pooch (shock and awe it's the Tories afterall) and it's exposed a pretty big hole thei current laws.
The government shouldn't have the ability to revoke citizenship at all, regardless of whether or not a crime is committed. But otherwise I generally agree with you, and considering her situation what they've done is incredibly despicable.
 

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,305
The government shouldn't have the ability to revoke citizenship at all, regardless of whether or not a crime is committed. But otherwise I generally agree with you, and considering her situation what they've done is incredibly despicable.

Yeah I wasnt saying it as in they should have that power, more that it wouldn't have even looked as bad as the scenario they've landed in through their own incompetence. But all in all that doesn't matter to the Tories I guess since the Daily Mail etc wont be half as interested in a Tory overstepping their bounds.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Yeah I wasnt saying it as in they should have that power, more that it wouldn't have even looked as bad as the scenario they've landed in through their own incompetence. But all in all that doesn't matter to the Tories I guess since the Daily Mail etc wont be half as interested in a Tory overstepping their bounds.
Either way it would be terrible, this entire situation is terrible. The Daily Mail and The Sun are cesspool garbage rags.
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,492
I am so proud to be British. We got a working civilisation, see? When we are faced with moral problems, we don't resort to such base emotions as hatred. Not like those dirty others across the seas.

We just bend our own laws, those things we also think make us better than those others, and accuse those who disagree with it of being terrorist lovers.
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,957
This whole story seems like total bullshit. It's just our cunt of a home secretary trying to be tough and get accepted by the gammon faction of the Tory party (he's trying to get the leadership when may goes, like most of the cabinet)

The Tory government tried to do this before and it's been struck down as illegal in the high court. You can't make someone stateless and the courts have ruled that you can't do it just because you think they might be entitled to citizenship somewhere else.
She hasn't actually broken the law.
If Begum really wanted to waste government cash she could sue the government. She'd win easily. And if she could link the death of her son to an illegal government action then she'd get a massive amount of compensation and probably force the government to apologise to her.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
This whole story seems like total bullshit. It's just our cunt of a home secretary trying to be tough and get accepted by the gammon faction of the Tory party (he's trying to get the leadership when may goes, like most of the cabinet)

The Tory government tried to do this before and it's been struck down as illegal in the high court. You can't make someone stateless and the courts have ruled that you can't do it just because you think they might be entitled to citizenship somewhere else.
She hasn't actually broken the law.
If Begum really wanted to waste government cash she could sue the government. She'd win easily. And if she could link the death of her son to an illegal government action then she'd get a massive amount of compensation and probably force the government to apologise to her.

Her lawyer has said he will sue the government. He needs to do a ridiculous thing and go to Syria to get her signature.

The right wing press will soon make him enemy #1
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
Her lawyer has said he will sue the government. He needs to do a ridiculous thing and go to Syria to get her signature.

The right wing press will soon make him enemy #1

I hope she sues, I hope she wins and I hope she gets paid.

The outrage from the gammons will feed me as much as any food bank when this country goes to shit after Brexit.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,396
London
The way the fucking Tories have deal with Begum and her child is a disgrace. It was unlawful to leave her stateless, and she should have faced justice in this country (she may or may not have committed a crime by associating with IS; it would depend on the evidence; and that baby was inarguably a British citizen that they left to die. Journalists had no problem getting to her, and the authorities there said they wanted the UK to take her away and deal with her.

Pretty sure if this was Javid or Hunt's daughter or grandchild it would be a different story. Or even just a white girl.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
Absolutely. This is an obvious case of grooming and abuse, but because she's Muslim and not white then she gets demonized.

Jesus Christ these hot takes, she's not demonised because she's Muslim or non-white, she joined fucking ISIS and that makes you a pretty shit human.

IMO, anyone like that needs to be jailed and locked up forever, whether they are female, brown, male, white, gay or anything else.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
This whole story seems like total bullshit. It's just our cunt of a home secretary trying to be tough and get accepted by the gammon faction of the Tory party (he's trying to get the leadership when may goes, like most of the cabinet)

The Tory government tried to do this before and it's been struck down as illegal in the high court. You can't make someone stateless and the courts have ruled that you can't do it just because you think they might be entitled to citizenship somewhere else.
She hasn't actually broken the law.
If Begum really wanted to waste government cash she could sue the government. She'd win easily. And if she could link the death of her son to an illegal government action then she'd get a massive amount of compensation and probably force the government to apologise to her.

Almost as if Sajid was appointed to carry out the Tories blatant racist policies. Honestly, this is troubling, he's perhaps able to do far more damage to minorities then your typical Tory due to his background and need to "prove" that he's one of them.

This is a good opinion piece on him from the guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-me-question-the-value-of-muslim-politicians
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Jesus Christ these hot takes, she's not demonised because she's Muslim or non-white, she joined fucking ISIS and that makes you a pretty shit human.

IMO, anyone like that needs to be jailed and locked up forever, whether they are female, brown, male, white, gay or anything else.
You are removing all context from the situation. Yes, it turns out groups that groom, coerce, and then sexually exploit teenage girls are pretty bad. She's a victim of ISIS. "Anyone like that should be locked up forever" OK so any teenage girl who is groomed by a horrible group of people so that they can sexually abuse her should be locked up forever? That's a pretty untenable solution, seems pretty inhumane to me.
 

Zoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,017
You're still beating this drum. What a weird hill. She was a child and she was coaxed and persuaded into sex (in a warzone!) by older men. This is grooming.



Ahh yes, the classic rapist defense. "she wanted it" fuck me some of you lot are absolute cretins.

Thanks for calling me a cretin, shithead.

Calling this woman a "victim" of grooming is doing nothing but denying her agency. It might come from a misguided sense of progressivism, but in fact it just looks like more sexism.

Lots of 15 years old learn about ISIS online, and yet hardly any of them travel to its heartland, stay there, and defend it to the very end. Do you know why this particular 15 year old girl did those things? Because she had her own mind and chose to. Now she should face the consequences (in the UK, of course).

Stop apologizing for terrorists.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rish-isis-recruit-return-ireland-leo-varadkar

An Irish woman detained in Syria on suspicion of association with Islamic State can return to Ireland with her two-year-old child, the country's prime minister has said.
Leo Varadkar said he did not believe removing Lisa Smith's citizenship was the "right or compassionate thing to do", but warned she would face investigation and potentially prosecution if she had been involved in any crimes.

Varadkar told reporters on Monday: "We really need to get to the bottom of the facts here … [and] carry out a security assessment to see if the Syrian authorities want to carry out a prosecution or not.
"But ultimately, this is an Irish citizen, and we don't believe that removing an Irish citizen's citizenship from her or her family, rendering them stateless, would be either the right or compassionate thing to do.
"We still don't have full information about this case. Each of these cases is going to have to be treated differently."

Oh look some common sense.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
You are removing all context from the situation. Yes, it turns out groups that groom, coerce, and then sexually exploit teenage girls are pretty bad. She's a victim of ISIS. "Anyone like that should be locked up forever" OK so any teenage girl who is groomed by a horrible group of people so that they can sexually abuse her should be locked up forever? That's a pretty untenable solution, seems pretty inhumane to me.

You are doing the exact thing you are accusing me of. Yes, it turns out that people lie and deceive about rehabilitating and then end up doing a far worse crime than before. There's leeway for teenage stupidity but there's also crossing the line and she has done that. You are ignoring the parts about the context where she did have choices, bad things happening to her(if we believe her on her word) don't cancel out the decisions she has made to join ISIS, and not to mention, still defend them and compare deaths of terrorist to that of innocent children at a concert. And suddenly, she(and others) want to come back now that ISIS has taken a huge loss.... sure honey. If you really want to get literal, almost anyone in ISIS is likely a victim of ISIS and its grooming. But that doesn't change the fact that they are ISIS.

There is a white Dutch guy who joined ISIS and no one is going ''aww he's white let's help him and forgive him'', even on Facebook where right winged people usually love to argue and hate, you're trying to frame this as a victim story when it's actually about religious extremism. Call a spade a spade, the root of the problem here is extreme religion.

People like her and him need to be behind bars forever, they have made absolutely horrid decisions in life and that lost their humanity in many peoples' eyes. Call me inhumane all you want, but I'd rather not risk them deciding to blow up between a bunch of innocent people when they're free again after a couple of years. Those innocent lives are far more worth than them.

Sympathising and forgiving terrorists is what seems inhumane to me considering what the consequences of that could be.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Thanks for calling me a cretin, shithead.

Calling this woman a "victim" of grooming is doing nothing but denying her agency. It might come from a misguided sense of progressivism, but in fact it just looks like more sexism.

Lots of 15 years old learn about ISIS online, and yet hardly any of them travel to its heartland, stay there, and defend it to the very end. Do you know why this particular 15 year old girl did those things? Because she had her own mind and chose to. Now she should face the consequences (in the UK, of course).

Stop apologizing for terrorists.
It is grooming because 15 year olds don't have the agency or ability to consent to things like leaving the country on their own or having sex with older men. Do we know why this particular girl did those things? Yes, because she was coerced and groomed by a terrorist group into being their sex slave. "Not all 15 year olds end up being groomed into sex slaves" is a fucking terrible argument for her being responsible for her own abuse, your comments are disgusting and I'm honestly shocked that this type of comment isn't ban worthy. You are literally claiming a 15 year old "had her own mind and chose to" in reference to her being sexually abused.
You are doing the exact thing you are accusing me of. Yes, it turns out that people lie and deceive about rehabilitating and then end up doing a far worse crime than before. There's leeway for teenage stupidity but there's also crossing the line and she has done that. You are ignoring the parts about the context where she did have choices, bad things happening to her(if we believe her on her word) don't cancel out the decisions she has made to join ISIS, and not to mention, still defend them and compare deaths of terrorist to that of innocent children at a concert. And suddenly, she(and others) want to come back now that ISIS has taken a huge loss.... sure honey. If you really want to get literal, almost anyone in ISIS is likely a victim of ISIS and its grooming. But that doesn't change the fact that they are ISIS.

There is a white Dutch guy who joined ISIS and no one is going ''aww he's white let's help him and forgive him'', even on Facebook where right winged people usually love to argue and hate, you're trying to frame this as a victim story when it's actually about religious extremism. Call a spade a spade, the root of the problem here is extreme religion.

People like her and him need to be behind bars forever, they have made absolutely horrid decisions in life and that lost their humanity in many peoples' eyes. Call me inhumane all you want, but I'd rather not risk them deciding to blow up between a bunch of innocent people when they're free again after a couple of years. Those innocent lives are far more worth than them.

Sympathising and forgiving terrorists is what seems inhumane to me considering what the consequences of that could be.

What the hell is this bolded bit? So you think people should be detained indefinitely for crimes because you never know, they may commit other crimes in the future. That's incredibly inhumane.

It IS a victim story, the fact that she was groomed and abused by ISIS and not some other group doesn't change the fact that she was groomed and abused. Yes, they used religious extremism and coercion to lure her there, but in the absence of any evidence of any crimes she committed while there, the full extent of her involvement with ISIS was being raped by them.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
What the hell is this bolded bit? So you think people should be detained indefinitely for crimes because you never know, they may commit other crimes in the future. That's incredibly inhumane.

It IS a victim story, the fact that she was groomed and abused by ISIS and not some other group doesn't change the fact that she was groomed and abused. Yes, they used religious extremism and coercion to lure her there, but in the absence of any evidence of any crimes she committed while there, the full extent of her involvement with ISIS was being raped by them.

For certain extreme crimes? Most definitely. Keep on calling me inhumane I guess. I'm not the one that would ever join a terrorist group or hurt innocents. People like you would sing a different tune if someone like that moved right next to you.

The biggest fact here is that she's a realistic danger to innocents. She's not just a victim, she's a terrorist. They are not the only one who used religious extremism come on, she used it too and obviously still feels sympathetic to it.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
22,961
For certain extreme crimes? Most definitely. Keep on calling me inhumane I guess. I'm not the one that would ever join a terrorist group or hurt innocents. People like you would sing a different tune if someone like that moved right next to you.

The biggest fact here is that she's a realistic danger to innocents. She's not just a victim, she's a terrorist. They are not the only one who used religious extremism come on, she used it too and obviously still feels sympathetic to it.
Don't assume anything about my life, you don't know anything about me. I know what it's like to be groomed and sexually abused as a teenager, maybe if you understood what that was like you'd be able to empathize with her. Yes, she was indoctrinated into their belief system so that they could abuse her, that doesn't make it impossible for her to deradicalize and live a normal life. People are able to leave cults and rejoin society to live normal lives, this is no different, especially considering she was a minor and a non-combatant.
 

Pein

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,231
NYC
She wouldn't be pleading to comeback if isis was still in control over there, in my eyes she can get as much sympathy as a nazi.

Honestly she's lucky she's even alive, if she was male she'd probably be dead already, but they should let her back in just so she can get a life sentence.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
Don't assume anything about my life, you don't know anything about me. I know what it's like to be groomed and sexually abused as a teenager, maybe if you understood what that was like you'd be able to empathize with her. Yes, she was indoctrinated into their belief system so that they could abuse her, that doesn't make it impossible for her to deradicalize and live a normal life. People are able to leave cults and rejoin society to live normal lives, this is no different, especially considering she was a minor and a non-combatant.

This is definitely different because she wasn't born and raised into a cult, she joined ISIS later in life.

It's not that I can't empathise with bad things happening to anyone, it's that I empathise a LOT more with the potential innocent victims she can create. She may partially be a victim in some circumstances, but she sure isn't innocent. Terrorism is a real threat and it has been happening too often in Europe, and there are plenty attacks that have been stopped as well. Some people are just not going to forgive and forget you coming back from terrorism, and that's completely fair game.

I'm sorry for whatever happened to you, but nothing you're saying is changing the fact that she's a danger. Can she be de-radicalised? Potentially.... Would I give her the benefit of the doubt and risk others? Hell to the no. And she's not just one person, there are others, are we going to give them all a second chance? Right now when ISIS lost control and suddenly people who joined want to come back? That would be the dumbest thing ever.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
You are doing the exact thing you are accusing me of. Yes, it turns out that people lie and deceive about rehabilitating and then end up doing a far worse crime than before. There's leeway for teenage stupidity but there's also crossing the line and she has done that. You are ignoring the parts about the context where she did have choices, bad things happening to her(if we believe her on her word) don't cancel out the decisions she has made to join ISIS, and not to mention, still defend them and compare deaths of terrorist to that of innocent children at a concert. And suddenly, she(and others) want to come back now that ISIS has taken a huge loss.... sure honey. If you really want to get literal, almost anyone in ISIS is likely a victim of ISIS and its grooming. But that doesn't change the fact that they are ISIS.

There is a white Dutch guy who joined ISIS and no one is going ''aww he's white let's help him and forgive him'', even on Facebook where right winged people usually love to argue and hate, you're trying to frame this as a victim story when it's actually about religious extremism. Call a spade a spade, the root of the problem here is extreme religion.

People like her and him need to be behind bars forever, they have made absolutely horrid decisions in life and that lost their humanity in many peoples' eyes. Call me inhumane all you want, but I'd rather not risk them deciding to blow up between a bunch of innocent people when they're free again after a couple of years. Those innocent lives are far more worth than them.

Sympathising and forgiving terrorists is what seems inhumane to me considering what the consequences of that could be.

Locked up for life. Where do you get such nonsense?

I'll add this quote once again just to prove a point.

Metropolitan Police commissioner Cressida Dick admitted that security services do not know how many of Isis's surviving British recruits intend to return.
Ms Dick said evidence of a criminal or terrorist offence was needed to prosecute, adding: "The very fact of going is not an offence.
"Some people returned from that area in the early days who had almost certainly done nothing other than humanitarian aid work. We talked to them and assessed their risk ... Many people have come back and just gone on with peaceful lives."
Speaking in parliament on Wednesday, home secretary Sajid Javid said all Isis fighters who re-entered the UK had been investigated and "the majority have been assessed to pose no or a low security risk".

So for the last time can we please stop talking about life sentences and such. You have no idea what kind of risk this girl would be yet you want to paint a picture of someone who is going to walk into a mall and blow everyone up.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,584
Locked up for life. Where do you get such nonsense?

I'll add this quote once again just to prove a point.



So for the last time can we please stop talking about life sentences and such. You have no idea what kind of risk this girl would be yet you want to paint a picture of someone who is going to walk into a mall and blow everyone up.

Because that's the kind of shit the group she joined does? Let's not compare this shit to people who went there for humanitarian work.

And the UK declaring someone as low or no threat doesn't make me feel more safe considering several attacks happened over there.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
Because that's the kind of shit the group she joined does? Let's not compare this shit to people who went there for humanitarian work.

And the UK declaring someone as low or no threat doesn't make me feel more safe considering several attacks happened over there.

Your ignoring the part where they say they assess the risk of all those who returned. You don't want to do that though. You just want to lock someone up for life without any trial or crime proven to have happened.

Personally I would rather trust what the security forces say rather than those who want their pound of flesh.

Look what the Irish leader said about the Irish girl in Syria. His not saying she is innocent, his saying she would need to be assessed and investigated. That's how it generally works when trying to determine whether someone is a criminal or a risk to security.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,584
Your ignoring the part where they say they assess the risk of all those who returned. You don't want to do that though. You just want to lock someone up for life without any trial or crime proven to have happened.

Personally I would rather trust what the security forces say rather than those who want their pound of flesh.

The risk will never be zero.
You do you, I will trust security forces when no terrorist attacks happen.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Locked up for life. Where do you get such nonsense?

I'll add this quote once again just to prove a point.



So for the last time can we please stop talking about life sentences and such. You have no idea what kind of risk this girl would be yet you want to paint a picture of someone who is going to walk into a mall and blow everyone up.

Joining ISIS, even when groomed into it, is not slightly comparible to humanitarian work.

Now certainly we should have empathy for her in the extent that she was groomed. But just because she groomed does not remove the potential threat. The people being allowed back aren't the people going on the news saying the sort of things she has. There is a very realistic potential that she could commit a terrorist act, aid a terrorist cell or recruit people into ISIS.

She shouldn't be arrested for life (though that the punishment for actually working as part of ISIS) but I think everyone should agree that it's not unreasonable to want her physically removed from society until she is de-radicalised.

When you join a group that commits random mass bombings of crowds of civilians, regardless of why you joined, people are gonna be somewhat suspicious of you to say the least.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
This is definitely different because she wasn't born and raised into a cult, she joined ISIS later in life.

It's not that I can't empathise with bad things happening to anyone, it's that I empathise a LOT more with the potential innocent victims she can create. She may partially be a victim in some circumstances, but she sure isn't innocent. Terrorism is a real threat and it has been happening too often in Europe, and there are plenty attacks that have been stopped as well. Some people are just not going to forgive and forget you coming back from terrorism, and that's completely fair game.

I'm sorry for whatever happened to you, but nothing you're saying is changing the fact that she's a danger. Can she be de-radicalised? Potentially.... Would I give her the benefit of the doubt and risk others? Hell to the no. And she's not just one person, there are others, are we going to give them all a second chance? Right now when ISIS lost control and suddenly people who joined want to come back? That would be the dumbest thing ever.
She joined ISIS as a minor, whether she was born into it or not is irrelevant. You can't punish her for the possibility of things she could do in the future. Obviously she needs to go through deradicalization programs, have therapy and mental health evaluations to determine if she is a threat to herself or others. Her mere existence isn't a threat.

We are talking about her case specifically, but in reference to other potential British citizens who joined ISIS, they should go to trial in Britain where they are citizens.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,584
She joined ISIS as a minor, whether she was born into it or not is irrelevant. You can't punish her for the possibility of things she could do in the future. Obviously she needs to go through deradicalization programs, have therapy and mental health evaluations to determine if she is a threat to herself or others. Her mere existence isn't a threat.

We are talking about her case specifically, but in reference to other potential British citizens who joined ISIS, they should go to trial in Britain where they are citizens.

Except it definitely is whether you like it or not, she joined a terrorist group and still is saying things she shouldn't be saying if she actually had regrets. I'm going to say it again, I doubt it's a coincidence she wants to return right at the moment when ISIS is losing big.

This isn't a mere possibility of a random person doing something, it's a real and serious threat given the circumstances and history.

But honestly I'm done discussing this, the defence force for this is absolutely disgusting and naive.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
The only way she should be allowed back is as a prisoner. Maybe as a mental patient. Certainly not as a normal citizen.
 

Deleted member 11413

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Except it definitely is whether you like it or not, she joined a terrorist group and still is saying things she shouldn't be saying if she actually had regrets. I'm going to say it again, I doubt it's a coincidence she wants to return right at the moment when ISIS is losing big.

This isn't a mere possibility of a random person doing something, it's a real and serious threat given the circumstances and history.

But honestly I'm done discussing this, the defence force for this is absolutely disgusting and naive.
I find your insistence that a girl who was clearly abused by a terrorist organization has to be put into prison for life or have her citizenship revoked without due process to be disgusting and inhumane.
 

Deleted member 5127

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I find your insistence that a girl who was clearly abused by a terrorist organization has to be put into prison for life or have her citizenship revoked without due process to be disgusting and inhumane.

And I find your level of sympathy with a terrorist disgusting and inhumane, whilst ignoring all the obvious red flags, the things she has done, and the things she is still doing and saying.
 

Deleted member 11413

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And I find your level of sympathy with a terrorist disgusting and inhumane, whilst ignoring all the obvious red flags, the things she has done, and the things she is still doing and saying.
She's saying those things because she was indoctrinated into a cult and hasn't gone through deradicalization yet. Turns out that abused teenagers who have yet to experience any therapy or mental health treatment for their trauma say disturbing things. You act like she is some impossible problem to solve, but she's not. She's hardly the first teenager to be coerced into an exploitative situation by bad actors, people in very similar situations to hers have been successfully deradicalized and returned safely to society. But we should ignore that in her case because you want your pound of flesh, apparently.
 

Deleted member 5127

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She's saying those things because she was indoctrinated into a cult and hasn't gone through deradicalization yet. Turns out that abused teenagers who have yet to experience any therapy or mental health treatment for their trauma say disturbing things. You act like she is some impossible problem to solve, but she's not. She's hardly the first teenager to be coerced into an exploitative situation by bad actors, people in very similar situations to hers have been successfully deradicalized and returned safely to society. But we should ignore that in her case because you want your pound of flesh, apparently.

She is now 19 and thus an adult, she is now fully responsible of her own actions and words.

She shows absolutely no remorse or regret and claims earlier terrorist attacks were just.

She named her kid after a 9/11 terrorist.

ISIS took a big loss and now suddenly there are plenty of people who want to return to Europe.

It's not rocket science.

Also, You're putting words in my mouth, I never said that she's an impossible problem to solve, there is a possibility, but then there is always the possibility of a relapse, or lies and deceits, she managed to hide this from her parents for years after all. I just have less sympathy for her than her potential victims down the road.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
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She is now 19 and thus an adult, she is now fully responsible of her own actions and words.

She shows absolutely no remorse or regret and claims earlier terrorist attacks were just.

She named her kid after a 9/11 terrorist.

ISIS took a big loss and now suddenly there are plenty of people who want to return to Europe.

It's not rocket science.

Also, You're putting words in my mouth, I never said that she's an impossible problem to solve, there is a possibility, but then there is always the possibility of a relapse, or lies and deceits, she managed to hide this from her parents for years after all. I just have less sympathy for her than her potential victims down the road.
She's 19 now, not when she joined ISIS. You do realize that ISIS doesn't just let the women they use as sex slaves go, right? And now that their power has significantly weakened that opens up the door for women like her to flee the situation of rape and abuse they found themselves in.

It's also not at all uncommon for people who have been abused to feel some sort of attachment or loyalty to their abusers, especially early on after having left that situation and before receiving any sort of therapy. She was in a situation where any sort of dessent or rebellion means death, it's going to take time for her to adjust to her new reality, in which proclaiming support for ISIS and loyalty to her abusers is no longer a requirement for her survival.

Your logic is supremely flawed, that argument could be used to justify the indefinite detainment of any person for any crime regardless of the circumstances. There are no victims as a result of her actions except for herself, you cannot punish someone for crimes they have not committed. I'm not advocating for her to just come back no questions asked, to do that would be a disservice to both her and society. She needs to go through deradicalization and receive extensive mental health treatment and evaluations.

The idea that hiding the fact that she was being groomed, coerced, and abused makes you think she is less likely to be rehabilitated just shows you know nothing about this subject. When minors are groomed for exploitation hiding the situation is the top priority for the victim.
 
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Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
She is now 19 and thus an adult, she is now fully responsible of her own actions and words.

She shows absolutely no remorse or regret and claims earlier terrorist attacks were just.

She named her kid after a 9/11 terrorist.

ISIS took a big loss and now suddenly there are plenty of people who want to return to Europe.

It's not rocket science.

Also, You're putting words in my mouth, I never said that she's an impossible problem to solve, there is a possibility, but then there is always the possibility of a relapse, or lies and deceits, she managed to hide this from her parents for years after all. I just have less sympathy for her than her potential victims down the road.

So what? We have murders, rapist or both and a legal framework to process them, we simply don't eject them from thier own country, no matter how unforgivable the crime or thought. As it stands she just holds disgusting views, and is a piece of shit, but we have laws in place to monitor and tackle them. Their family for instance want her to face any form of prosecution if necessary.

What's completely absurd is that WE expect Bangladesh to pick up OUR toxic waste, just because she hasn't played nicely, they told Sajid to get lost (rightfully) and she's now a burden on an already struggling Syrian charity, stateless. It's disgusting, and inhumane. Let's not go down that route where we compromise our principals for knee jerk popular opinion.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
She is now 19 and thus an adult, she is now fully responsible of her own actions and words.

She shows absolutely no remorse or regret and claims earlier terrorist attacks were just.

She named her kid after a 9/11 terrorist.

ISIS took a big loss and now suddenly there are plenty of people who want to return to Europe.

It's not rocket science.

Also, You're putting words in my mouth, I never said that she's an impossible problem to solve, there is a possibility, but then there is always the possibility of a relapse, or lies and deceits, she managed to hide this from her parents for years after all. I just have less sympathy for her than her potential victims down the road.

Since when does a 9/11 terrorist have monopoly on a name? That would like criticising someone who named their son Osama.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
She's 19 now, not when she joined ISIS. You do realize that ISIS doesn't just let the women they use as sex slaves go, right? And now that their power has significantly weakened that opens up the door for women like her to flee the situation of rape and abuse they found themselves in.

It's also not at all uncommon for people who have been abused to feel some sort of attachment or loyalty to their abusers, especially early on after having left that situation and before receiving any sort of therapy. She was in a situation where any sort of dessent or rebellion means death, it's going to take time for her to adjust to her new reality, in which proclaiming support for ISIS and loyalty to her abusers is no longer a requirement for her survival.

Your logic is supremely flawed, that argument could be used to justify the indefinite detainment of any person for any crime regardless of the circumstances. There are no victims as a result of her actions except for herself, you cannot punish someone for crimes they have not committed. I'm not advocating for her to just come back no questions asked, to do that would be a disservice to both her and society. She needs to go through deradicalization and receive extensive mental health treatment and evaluations.

The idea that hiding the fact that she was being groomed, coerced, and abused makes you think she is less likely to be rehabilitated just shows you know nothing about this subject. When minors are groomed for exploitation hiding the situation is the top priority for the victim.

Oh, well my bad... since there are no direct victims she's only complicit. No big deal right.

So what? We have murders, rapist or both and a legal framework to process them, we simply don't eject them from thier own country, no matter how unforgivable the crime or thought. As it stands she just holds disgusting views, and is a piece of shit, but we have laws in place to monitor and tackle them. Their family for instance want her to face any form of prosecution if necessary.

What's completely absurd is that WE expect Bangladesh to pick up OUR toxic waste, just because she hasn't played nicely, they told Sajid to get lost (rightfully) and she's now a burden on an already struggling Syrian charity, stateless. It's disgusting, and inhumane. Let's not go down that route where we compromise our principals for knee jerk popular opinion.

I'm not necessarily advocating for her losing her nationality, I'd just rather never have her roaming free around innocent people.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,009
Oh, well my bad... since there are no direct victims she's only complicit. No big deal right.

I'm not necessarily advocating for her losing her nationality, I'd just rather never have her roaming free around innocent people.
Forget for a moment everything you know about her. No alleged crime, no trial, no evidence, and you're not against the Govt making someone stateless in that situation. Do you see that slippery slope? As for prison until she dies, what about murderers and rapists? Same deal? Again, not "defending" her at all, I'm wondering where the consistency is here. Is someone who has actually committed horrible crimes against British people on British soil more or less dangerous than someone who was "only complicit"? Should the govt have extra-judicial power regarding citizenship?
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,017
One thing I've always wondered about this thread is why she's refered to as a British Schoolgirl. Sounds...odd