It doesn't matter whether she was groomed or coerced or joined ISIS of her own free will. Either way, the UK should allow her to return and then give her a proper trial and then if she is determined to be a radical, lock her up on UK soil.
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British schoolgirl that left to join ISIS in 2015 says she has no regrets but wants to return home to the UK
- Thread starter AcademicSaucer
- Start date
By revoking her citizenship I feel like the UK tries to absolve itself of this kind of radicalization happening on their soil. I feel like she should remain the UK's problem not just in who's responsible in helping de-radicalizing her, but in making sure less of it happens in the first place.
So lets do a deep hard dive in hard to find sources like, Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethnal_Green_trio
Who is Aqsa Mahmood? Another hard to find source called CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2015/02/23/world/scottish-teen-isis-recruiter/index.html
I dunno, reads like grooming propaganda to me. If your next move is you want specific examples of communication, I dunno. I don't have Begum's phone number to ask her to forward me over her texts.
This argument line of 'GIVE ME HARD PROOF" is also a case of moving the goalposts because even if the motherfucker decided she wanted to go join ISIS she was fucking FIFTEEN at the time. Going back to the grooming part they specifically tell you early on that ISIS is misportrayed in the press and if you've got motherfuckers out there thinking vaccines kill you and the earth is flat, not sure why its hard to believe that a 15 year old might make a terrible decision based on false information fed to her. SURE, she could be a born psychopath, but that's such an low number of the population that the odds are unlikely.
I just feel your argument is a disingenuous one and if nots, I apologize.
While I understand how FUCKED up ISIS is I feel that the absolute hard stance taken against a young woman has to do with the many factors at play (POC, female, muslim) when I can pop into many major news sources on the entirety of the political spectrum begging me as a POC to find the humanity in a young white male nazi, lol. Fuck outta here.
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The odds of her being a psycopath that enjoys killings and decided to take a killing vacay in Isisworld vs someone who was indoctrinated in a cult def. favor the cult side.
Also her continuously sprouting ISIS propaganda can mean that yes, she's a psycopath. Or like we've been saying, she's just fucking brainwashed.
https://wgntv.com/2019/03/07/r-kellys-girlfriends-come-to-his-defense-in-cbs-interview/
The fact that she found her way there so that she could be abused is what makes this grooming. I swear none of you understand what that term means, it's when vulnerable people are coerced and convinced to do things they can't consent to by someone with more power and authority. As a 15 year old, she is unable to A) consent to sex with adults and B) make the decision to leave the country on her own.
The fact that she was able to do those things is a failure of society and her parents to protect her. The fact that she was able to freely watch ISIS beheading videos and then get into contact with them is a failure of society and her parents to protect her.
It's not an assumption that she was raped repeatedly, it's not an assumption that her baby died due to the conditions she was left in. Nobody knows exactly what happened except for her and the people that abused her, but she's not the only ISIS bride to come back and it's pretty clear based on numerous accounts that these women are married off to multiple men and used as sex slaves.
Do some fucking research before you go spouting off this crap. 15 year olds can't just up and leave Britain under their parents noses without assistance. She was in contact with ISIS for a while before leaving. She's not the only teenage girl who has been coerced into joining them, ISIS has done this many, many times and it always plays out the same.
Again I'm not arguing that she wasn't groomed. What I'm saying is she had taken steps of her own accord too prior to contact. Neither of these statements are at odds with each other and not all people groomed into terrorism start the path themselves.
Now that second paragraph is getting a lot closer to where the issue lies IMO, but personally I think even to pin it on society is short sighted tbh. We know how she got to see these sorts of things and it wasn't society, it was companies like Youtube etc having no obligation to moderate their shit and having beheadings, lynchings and all sorts as perfectly fine content on their platform. Hell only a couple years ago YT alone not just hosted the content but the algorithms would work in favor of this type of content. Society at large was never ok with this being the situation.
Now thankfully this has been addressed to some extent and most sites that had hosted this in the past have made it harder to hide that sort of content on there and find, but people like this girl would be the effects of those times IMO. Of course would have people join with or without sites propping it up, but it's hard to ignore the drop off of support from overseas and how it lines up.
Isn't that basically "Jihadi" Jack Letts?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nationality-letts-shamima-begum-a8792956.html
You know the UK Home Secretary is a Muslim of Pakistani descent right?
There is a white guy 'jihadi jack' and as far as I know he hasn't had his citizenship stripped.
His an Uncle Tom. Dude is on a mission to prove his 'one of us' to boost his Tory leadership campaign when May goes.
He's been consistently trying to prove himself to appease the racist right of his party. He's been pulled up several times in his short tenure.
It's racist because of a thing everyone imagines might happen. Ok.
I mean of course she was groomed to join ISIS. But I find it hard to muster any sympathy for someone that after all she's seen still doesn't feel a little remorse. There are two things to unpack here. One the crimes that were done to her, and the crimes against humanity she supported and feels were justified.
She is a despicable person, devoid of any empathy or capability of remorse. But to revoke her citizenship is a clearly populistic move born out of racism.
If it were up to me I'd let her rot there, but that's why we have laws. So that personal vindictiveness doesn't decide the fate of someone.
She is a despicable person, devoid of any empathy or capability of remorse. But to revoke her citizenship is a clearly populistic move born out of racism.
If it were up to me I'd let her rot there, but that's why we have laws. So that personal vindictiveness doesn't decide the fate of someone.
He hasn't yet. He's still in prison— not simply a refugee camp— in Kurdish controlled territory though. His nationality situation is a bit different as well since he technically has Canadian nationality through his Canadian-born father. Doesn't excuse the lack of equity of treatment between him and Beggum however. If the UK wants to revoke citizenship for those that join IS, they should apply it equally.
If Begum were a white 15 year old girl there would be zero questioning over whether or not she had been groomed. She'd be getting sympathy interviews and a gofundme from the Express.
You realize you are blaming a 15 year old because got in contact with a dangerous group of people who then coerced her into joining them so they could exploit her. That is essentially victim blaming.
'Taken steps' is literally contacting them as a minor and being exposed to their propaganda as a minor. That's not a crime on her part, but it is a failure of society and her family to protect her.
Society absolutely bears blame in this. A 15 year old British citizen was contacted, coerced, and then given assistance to leave the country for the purpose of being exploited. That includes platforms where the information was disseminated, her parents who were not involved enough to know what was going on and did not protect her, and the government who has a duty to protect its citizens, especially minors. Everyone failed her, and she is the one paying the price.
Absolutely. This is an obvious case of grooming and abuse, but because she's Muslim and not white then she gets demonized.
This victim was complicit in there being further victims put to death. Being a victim also doesn't absolve her of any responsibility whatsoever, something you'd also said yourself previously. This isn't just a case of someone who was solely a victim, she may have had many victims herself or was at least complicit. Now should she have her citizenship revoked? No. Is she a victim? Yes. But that alone doesn't mean that she bares no blame at all in any actions she took part in with ISIL.
I think there's a wire getting crossed somewhere because all I'm trying to explain with the link to her enjoying beheadings as a teenager is there's more groundwork to put in, because that alone is something that would be out of the ordinary and needed to be addressed long before any brainwashing. That it's going to be an uphill battle getting back to the root of where it started and trying to remove her desire for death when it predates any grooming. I think we agree that she shouldn't have her citizenship revoked and should be given the same process as other ISIL members who left were.
Literally nothing that person wrote suggests they think she's entirely free of blame.
It's okay for an underage British girl to be groomed by verified grooming gangs, be coaxed away from her home, be failed by law enforcement (I.e three kids with other people passports getting planes to known warzones no problem), be raped (by the letter of the law), if they're the right kind of underage British girl.
The actions she took part in with ISIS was being raped. She needs to go through deradicalization and given mental health treatment for her trauma, where she can be evaluated for both her own safety and the safety of others. I never said she shares no blame, but when figuring out how to handle her situation it is necessary to take into account the circumstances under which she joined ISIS. She has suffered enough, she's gone through more trauma and suffering than most people will ever experience in their lives, and shes already been failed by British society once. All I'm suggesting is that Britain take responsibility, acknowledge they failed her originally, and attempt to rectify that failure in a manner that is humane. Revoking her citizenship is about as far from that as you can get, it's the government refusing to take responsibility for their own failure and violates the human rights of an abuse victim to appease the blood lust of the masses. That is despicable.
There is absolutely nothing in that article that says this guy hasn't been or won't be stripped of his citizenship as well, and he is quoted himself as saying that he doesn't see himself being allowed back in the UK:
"If the UK accepted me then I'd go back to the UK, it's my home. But I don't think that's going to happen," he said. "No one really cares."
Then why did the poster accuse me of victim blaming for agreeing with you all on this point? That's why I said I think theres a crossed wire, because from what I can tell we agree that she should be returned and taken to trial.
It's interesting that you see this as some sort of counter argument. I mean, it's the same argument that the other poster made to which I already responded. You're using the mere fact that this person is Muslim and Pakistani as an argument that they can't be racist themselves? What's your next argument, the Home Secretary has Pakistani Muslim friends?
This is a policy that only affects people with dual nationality (whether they want it or not, I don't imagine the girl in this topic having had an option), and it allows for the entire judicial process to be circumvented - so by default it's either xenophobia and/or racism.
The power shouldn't be in their hands. It shouldn't be an option. You're treating dual nationality citizens as second class.
But here's the thing , has she actually committed a crime ?
I don't think she has , which is why most people are on edge because they know she can just walk free on the streets if she came back to the UK. Her ideology is a severe risk to British society and that's what they want to keep out.
Because your response to 'she was groomed' is that she played a role in her own abuse. No shit, that's what grooming is, that's what makes it different from an abduction. There is no reason to keep bringing that up.
Not interested in a discussion are we? I figured.
Lots of ideology is a severe risk to British society, like Brexit. Would you advocate that anyone who supported Brexit should have their citizenship revoked?
All you are you are saying here is that people are afraid of what she represents. Fine, but revoking citizenship of someone who hasn't even committed a crime is not an acceptable response to fear, especially when that fear is clearly motivated by racism and Islamophobia. Britain has deradicalization programs, use them.
User banned (3 days) Inflammatory generalizations over series of posts
Let's be honest here guys, even if the courts find her guilty, you guys will always cry foul. You won't be satisfied until she is walking feely down the streets of the UK.
What are you even doing? No one is coming close to this, and the fact you posted it proves beyond any doubt you have no interest in an honest discussion here.
Absurd.
What? How do you even get there? This sounds like straight up paranoia.
Personally I'm not going to settle for any less than a week of national holiday upon her return, plus a great parade outside Buckingham Palace and an annual celebration.
What the fuck are you even suggesting? Some of you need to have a word with yourselves.
How do you know his current status? I can't find anything in the news on him after that interview.
Are you trying to make people feel bad for having empathy for a teenage abuse victim? It's not going to work, and says way more about you than it does those who disagree with you.
Right we may as well just admit were gonna get nowhere here. I said I think we have a crossed wire because we fundamentally agree..I think the crossed wire is that she could easily face no punishment if she doesn't confess and that I'd wrongly assumed that you were ok with that outcome, whereas I'd personally feel she deserves some jail time solely for aiding terrorists.
But at this point you've just admitted you made a baseless accusation at me and then attempted to justify it so I don't really see us making any progress.
There is no reason to repeatedly bring up the obvious fact that grooming requires she had to take steps to join ISIS unless you are trying to undermine the degree to which she was abused. If you aren't attempting to victim blame her, then stop doing it.
She should be placed into a deradicalization program. If there is no evidence of her committing a crime then she should not be imprisoned. That's not a controversial statement, you can't just imprison people because you don't like their ideology in the absence of a crime.
I hope the Irish citizenry and the government show themselves to better and less bloodthirsty than those in the UK.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-smith-evacuated-baghuz-named-ex-soldier/amp/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-smith-evacuated-baghuz-named-ex-soldier/amp/
Try being honest with yourself sometime, but I know that's hard so I'll help you...
Let me be honest here guys, I don't care that she was groomed at a young age, I don't care that she was raped, I don't care that her baby is dead, I just won't be happy until she's dead.
Surely you cannot supporting revoking ones UK status while questioning whether she has actually committed a crime.
If she has she still shouldn't have had her citizenship revoked but if she hasn't well it makes it even more outrageous.