Bubble check - Is liberalism/progressivism the true path forward? What are some of the critiques? Serious replies please.

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,872
Bubble check: does any of this discussion matter outside of the computer terminal you're reading this message on?
I think Era is pretty tight bubble, not only politically but in terms of gaming opinions and whatnot.

If anything this thread is a nice reminder to "bubble check" yourself. Should be something people do more often.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,872
Honestly what’s a bubble check?
Just a little self awareness check that we post (and sometimes live) in a relative echo chamber. It's comments like "I can't fathom why Joe Biden is still favored". Yeah, not many people here like Joe Biden for the dem nom but the rest of the country is very different from Era. Even the democratic voters in the country.



Tribalism is what happens when we live in bubbles. It's also why extreme viewpoints form. So many people in this country believe Obama is a muslim arab born jihadist, AOC is a communist hellbent on taking away freedoms, the deep state is working against trump etc etc etc because all these people do is watch fox news, and read conservative fake news sites that are shared on facebook. And once its shared on facebook, any website looks legit. Then they only hang out with other people like them.



Same shit happens on the left.
 

infinite

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,136
Just a little self awareness check that we post (and sometimes live) in a relative echo chamber. It's comments like "I can't fathom why Joe Biden is still favored". Yeah, not many people here like Joe Biden for the dem nom but the rest of the country is very different from Era. Even the democratic voters in the country.



Tribalism is what happens when we live in bubbles. It's also why extreme viewpoints form. So many people in this country believe Obama is a muslim arab born jihadist, AOC is a communist hellbent on taking away freedoms, the deep state is working against trump etc etc etc because all these people do is watch fox news, and read conservative fake news sites that are shared on facebook. And once its shared on facebook, any website looks legit. Then they only hang out with other people like them.



Same shit happens on the left.
this thread his like center left, socdems, and leftist literally debating each other rather thoroughly. And even among the leftist there’s demsoc and ancoms debating their nuances. I wouldn’t at all say this thread is an echo chamber
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,872
this thread his like center left, socdems, and leftist literally debating each other rather thoroughly. And even among the leftist there’s demsoc and ancoms debating their nuances. I wouldn’t at all say this thread is an echo chamber
This thread, no. It's doing its job because it is a "bubble check"

But the site and social media in general, yeah.
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
7,848
I think one of the biggest critiques is liberal's penchant for wanting things discussed and believing good faith on the part of people who are not interested in that, and kind of weakly letting things get to a point of compromise and playing the game on other people's terms due to wanting inclusiveness even in situations where it may not be helpful. Does that make sense? I also think there are a lot of self-professed liberals where all they do to put themselves in that camp is vote Democrat every 2/4 years and while they may have liberal views they aren't really helping in as substantial a way as they could, while progressives and even a lot of republicans are out there pushing their ideologies in other ways that are more likely to shift thought.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,872
I think one of the biggest critiques is liberal's penchant for wanting things discussed and believing good faith on the part of people who are not interested in that, and kind of weakly letting things get to a point of compromise and playing the game on other people's terms due to wanting inclusiveness even in situations where it may not be helpful. Does that make sense?
Could you give an example?

My interpretation of it was dems trying to take the "high road" despite constant fuckery from the GOP
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
7,848
Could you give an example?

My interpretation of it was dems trying to take the "high road" despite constant fuckery from the GOP
That's exactly what I mean and in less words haha.

Like, I'm sure the average liberal is likely better educated than the average Republican, and our side gives them too much leeway in the name of compromise. It's just like a liberal culture thing. Liberals may be more likely to platform shitty people because they believe that through reasoned debate our side will win out because ultimately we have the moral high ground, but it seems like some liberals have blinders on to how much "feels" influences people.


I think this video gets into how our side needs to do a better/different job as to how we approach things.
 

Gunblade47

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
336
I wonder what effect having the popular vote would have on the US. The current system completely strips the cities of their voting power and cities tend to be way more progressive and left leaning.

But I think most establishment democrats would rather see hell freeze over first and I'm not even going to talk about republicans.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,183
I wonder what effect having the popular vote would have on the US. The current system completely strips the cities of their voting power and cities tend to be way more progressive and left leaning.

But I think most establishment democrats would rather see hell freeze over first and I'm not even going to talk about republicans.
Republicans would pretty much never win again on their current platform. They would be forced to become more progressive or just disappear. The two parties left would be socialists and social democrats after Democrats splinter.
 

Addi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
928
I think one of the biggest critiques is liberal's penchant for wanting things discussed and believing good faith on the part of people who are not interested in that, and kind of weakly letting things get to a point of compromise and playing the game on other people's terms due to wanting inclusiveness even in situations where it may not be helpful. Does that make sense? I also think there are a lot of self-professed liberals where all they do to put themselves in that camp is vote Democrat every 2/4 years and while they may have liberal views they aren't really helping in as substantial a way as they could, while progressives and even a lot of republicans are out there pushing their ideologies in other ways that are more likely to shift thought.
Paradox of tolerance

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
 

Bio

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,983
Denver, Colorado
This thread, no. It's doing its job because it is a "bubble check"

But the site and social media in general, yeah.
Politically speaking I'd say the only "bubble" this site resides within is the one that says Trump and republicans are terrible, and I don't think being in a bubble is wrong if it's also an objectively true viewpoint.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,872
That's exactly what I mean and in less words haha.

Like, I'm sure the average liberal is likely better educated than the average Republican, and our side gives them too much leeway in the name of compromise. It's just like a liberal culture thing. Liberals may be more likely to platform shitty people because they believe that through reasoned debate our side will win out because ultimately we have the moral high ground, but it seems like some liberals have blinders on to how much "feels" influences people.


I think this video gets into how our side needs to do a better/different job as to how we approach things.
There's unfortunately a bit of a complication in this. There is something of a false narrative/culture war going on and the conservative side is gaining some would be moderates because they view the left as being closed minded, violent (antifa), anti-american etc. I literally have friends that abstained from voting because while they said they are traditionally left wing, they said they don't like this direction the left is going in. They would have voted republican if a "more sane" candidate made it out of the primaries. They all grew up in a white affluent CT suburb if that gives you any more context as to why they think this way.



I honestly don't know what the solution to this is because on one hand, you shouldn't be giving a platform to shitty people, and you should be challenging facism/racism, but the right does SUCH a good job at spinning shit to portray the left as some freedom controlling thought police dictators.
 

emesve

Member
Oct 25, 2017
790
I honestly don't know what the solution to this is because on one hand, you shouldn't be giving a platform to shitty people, and you should be challenging facism/racism, but the right does SUCH a good job at spinning shit to portray the left as some freedom controlling thought police dictators.
They don't do a good job, they just do A LOT of it, and right wingers control the vast majority of media. There are no left wing networks out there, they're at most liberals who want to retain the currently corrupt status quo, so they'll happily go along with the framing of the left wing that the right wing media starts. There's a ridiculous amount of money pumped toward right wing propaganda. There's tonnes of utterly shitty right wing talking heads that got there without any sort of buildup, they just got funded and went from 0-100. There are some that were straight up hired as actors to start a high production value right wing youtube channel, it's nuts.
 

fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,348
Liberalism seems to have very different meaning in Europe and USA, in Eurtope it is associated to moving factories abroiad to lower costs, firing people,etc, while it seems you associate it to progressive beliefs in USA.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,183
Liberalism seems to have very different meaning in Europe and USA, in Eurtope it is associated to moving factories abroiad to lower costs, firing people,etc, while it seems you associate it to progressive beliefs in USA.
Yeah that's more or less it. Liberalism is synonymous with progressivism in the US now in common speech. Some people differentiate with "liberals" and capital-L "Liberals".

The European usage is the textbook usage. The US usage is a bastardized version of the textbook usage filtered through our dumb politics.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,359
Republicans would pretty much never win again on their current platform. They would be forced to become more progressive or just disappear. The two parties left would be socialists and social democrats after Democrats splinter.
I mean, we have Europe as a pretty clear example of that definitively not being the case.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,183
I mean, we have Europe as a pretty clear example of that definitively not being the case.
That's simply because they have more right wing folk than left wing folk.

It's a matter of what the balance between left-wing and right-wing is at the time direct democracy is attempted.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,034
Yeah that's more or less it. Liberalism is synonymous with progressivism in the US now in common speech. Some people differentiate with "liberals" and capital-L "Liberals".

The European usage is the textbook usage. The US usage is a bastardized version of the textbook usage filtered through our dumb politics.
Liberals here insist they are progressive, but any modernized FDR scale policy today gets aggressively shredded by the same people.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,183
Liberals here insist they are progressive, but any modernized FDR scale policy today gets aggressively shredded by the same people.
Whether they are actually "progressive" or whether they simply consider themselves "progressive" are two different ideas. There's always a disconnect between what someone calls themselves, what they actually believe, and what they actually do.

You're right about FDR though. American liberals are more right wing today, economically, than they were 100 years ago. They've lost the spirit of Keynesianism, and I don't even like Keynesianism all that much.
 
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thepotatoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,863
Denver
There's unfortunately a bit of a complication in this. There is something of a false narrative/culture war going on and the conservative side is gaining some would be moderates because they view the left as being closed minded, violent (antifa), anti-american etc. I literally have friends that abstained from voting because while they said they are traditionally left wing, they said they don't like this direction the left is going in. They would have voted republican if a "more sane" candidate made it out of the primaries. They all grew up in a white affluent CT suburb if that gives you any more context as to why they think this way.



I honestly don't know what the solution to this is because on one hand, you shouldn't be giving a platform to shitty people, and you should be challenging facism/racism, but the right does SUCH a good job at spinning shit to portray the left as some freedom controlling thought police dictators.
I think the overall concern for platforming is good, but I don't understand why people treat every single left/right interaction as benefiting the right. Why can't the left be the ones that are being platformed by the right?

Bernie going on the Joe Rogan podcast is the perfect example, because that's Joe Rogan's platform first and foremost. Maybe Bernie brings some Bernie fans to Joe Rogan too, but unless it gets twice the listens of any other episode of Joe Rogan, I think we can assume there's a much higher percentage of Joe Rogan fans being introduced to an non-editorialized Bernie in that episode.

Having people complain that Bernie did that not only makes no sense, it also is just a very bad look because that perception of being unreasonable is a big problem for us.