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Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
We're on the same page, that's exactly what I mean. No one knows Bungie's engine better than them obviously. To go into making a living game that depends on content with an engine like that is fundamentally flawed and a failure at the highest reaches of management. Yes they saved alot of money and time by not designing a new engine or licensing something else, but was it worth it? No
You see the entire reason devs stick to the same engine despite issues is because it lets them create content faster than they could if they were to start learning a new engine and modifying it to their liking. This is why Bethesda is still using that engine and not fixing it despite it being possible (if it wasn't possible all those unofficial mods wouldn't exist, and Bethesda has never hired anyone to look into those to implement it officially in the engine).

But Destiny already has issue with slow content creation, any slowdowns and additional cost caused from getting used to a different engine and modifying it would likely be less than the slowdown their current engine causes, ofcourse I'm only guessing but we have Destiny's content drop frequency and size to use as evidence. And this is not something new as this engine issue causing development trouble goes all the way back to Halo 2.....15 years ago ! They did say they improved it in D2 but it doesn't really seem to matter much as the output seems to be barely better, and whether that slightly better output is due to the improvements or whether it's due to help from other studios....I don't know. But they do need restructuring and a change in their development philosophy desperately.
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
You see the entire reason devs stick to the same engine despite issues is because it lets them create content faster than they could if they were to start learning a new engine and modifying it to their liking. This is why Bethesda is still using that engine and not fixing it despite it being possible (if it wasn't possible all those unofficial mods wouldn't exist, and Bethesda has never hired anyone to look into those to implement it officially in the engine).

But Destiny already has issue with slow content creation, any slowdowns and additional cost caused from getting used to a different engine and modifying it would likely be less than the slowdown their current engine causes, ofcourse I'm only guessing but we have Destiny's content drop frequency and size to use as evidence. And this is not something new as this engine issue causing development trouble goes all the way back to Halo 2.....15 years ago ! They did say they improved it in D2 but it doesn't really seem to matter much as the output seems to be barely better, and whether that slightly better output is due to the improvements or whether it's due to help from other studios....I don't know. But they do need restructuring and a change in their development philosophy desperately.

Don't get me wrong, they can't change engine now, they should have done this before destiny development even started. That was the perfect chance. They could have pitched a joint engine development thing with Activision that even if they left,Activision would still have an engine that's future proofed (as much as you can). In any job you need the right tools. Yeah you can unscrew a flathead with a butter knife ...but it's a hell of alot easier with an actual flathead screwdriver
 

Dodgerfan74

Member
Dec 27, 2017
2,696
In addition to this people need to realise that a service based game cannot survive and thrive without doing content several times a year, every year of its life ! It's like what everyone else is doing, Bungie never did more than what others are doing infact more often than not they did less than what's standard for service based games. After D2's launch the only thing Bungie made in the entire year was Curse of Osiris and half of Forsaken. Can you imagine what this year would've been like without Vicarious Visions and High Moon helping them out? (Infact without Vicarious Visions there would not even be a PC version)

Yeah, this is the biggest part of all of it to me. Bungie has shown over the years that they struggle to manage products and ship games. How many games have the rebooted entirely 6-18 months before shipping? When this happens again, which it will, what the hell is Bungie going to do without being able to grab a handful of support studios and have them throw together a Rise of Iron or Warmind to fill the gap?

One of the biggest issues with Destiny is how fucking long everything takes on Bungie's end. Awful metas, damn near gambreaking bugs, comically useless loot all stick around for months and months before Bungie even starts to work on them. Imagine them stretched even further now.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
We're on the same page, that's exactly what I mean. No one knows Bungie's engine better than them obviously. To go into making a living game that depends on content with an engine like that is fundamentally flawed and a failure at the highest reaches of management. Yes they saved alot of money and time by not designing a new engine or licensing something else, but was it worth it? No
didn't they fix that issue for Destiny 2? i think there were still problems, but nothing as bad as the original story now
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
Don't get me wrong, they can't change engine now, they should have done this before destiny development even started. That was the perfect chance. They could have pitched a joint engine development thing with Activision that even if they left,Activision would still have an engine that's future proofed (as much as you can). In any job you need the right tools. Yeah you can unscrew a flathead with a butter knife ...but it's a hell of alot easier with an actual flathead screwdriver
Yea I know D3 is already in development and about a year and half away from going gold. They aren't going to change the engine now obviously but funny enough this is also the point where they usually reboot their development.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
New York
Honestly if Bungie wants D3 to be viable, they're gonna need to swallow their pride, learn from Warframe, and design it around Procedurally Generated Content. 100% handmade places can still be a thing, but they'd have to come later.

That's been my biggest gripe with Destiny: Repeating the same small amount of content over and over again, which simply isn't able to be produced at fast enough a rate because they insist on Destiny being 100% hand-made content.

The Infinite-Forest and the marketing surrounding it was so fucking blueballs when it actually came out.

Yea, I was under the impression that that was the ENTIRE point of the infinite forest. Take advantage of that shit, Bungie. Diablo 3 did some amazing things with procedural generation. Obviously not a 1:1 since it's two different genres but I'm saying tho...
 

darthbob

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,017
Procedural generation is all well and good, and should have a place in Destiny, but players need a reason to play. Something to chase, grind, and earn.

The content cadence with Black Armory kept me engaged for a while, same with Forsaken. Would like to see that sort of thing become the norm.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
Yea, I was under the impression that that was the ENTIRE point of the infinite forest. Take advantage of that shit, Bungie. Diablo 3 did some amazing things with procedural generation. Obviously not a 1:1 since it's two different genres but I'm saying tho...
Infinite Forest reeks of "we greenlit an overly ambitious design but expectedly ran out of money and time so we shipped a crappy MVP"
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
As bad as people make Destiny 2's content flow stream be... It's far better then Falout 76/The Division/Ark. The only game that does it better off the top of my head that is the same genre on consoles is Sea of Thieves
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
didn't they fix that issue for Destiny 2? i think there were still problems, but nothing as bad as the original story now
They said they fixed it but where are the results? If it was fixed then surely we'd have seen more substantial content instead the output we got is barely superior to D1's first year...and this was with full time help from 2 other studios.

I was in total disbelief when I booted up Curse of Osiris. After years of being told how D1's output was slow due to the engine and that we needed D2 for the newer engine. Only to get to the patrol area and see it's the size of a doughnut and that the "strikes" are basically the handful of campaign missions. They weren't even reskins like before, they were exactly the same mission!

You never need a new game for an engine upgrade/fix look at what Warframe was like in 2013 with corridor levels, barely any advanced graphical features no PBR. Then you look at what it is today with 2 open maps, full PBR implementation including updating past content and assets to support it. Siege has totally changed its content creator in the past year and half to reduce the memory footprint, and been gradually updating old content by redoing every asset from the original game to suit their new tools.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
Yea, I was under the impression that that was the ENTIRE point of the infinite forest. Take advantage of that shit, Bungie. Diablo 3 did some amazing things with procedural generation. Obviously not a 1:1 since it's two different genres but I'm saying tho...
They wanted to do a dungeon with randomly generated tiles (which is basically almost entity of Warframe except for the two open world's, or like The Division's Underground) but there is like nothing to do there except strikes. I did not even know until recently that the area is randomly generated because the content that uses it i.e. Strikes....ends up playing out the same everytime.
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
Yea I know D3 is already in development and about a year and half away from going gold. They aren't going to change the engine now obviously but funny enough this is also the point where they usually reboot their development.

This is just what i find the craziest...Bungie basically known to be horrendus at product management, dating all the way back to Halo 2! They basically need hits every time to justify their existence with how troubled development constantly is. And i know stories of how many games look like disasters in development, but reboots and re-scaling late in development are a bit more than your typical hiccups
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
As bad as people make Destiny 2's content flow stream be... It's far better then Falout 76/The Division/Ark. The only game that does it better off the top of my head that is the same genre on consoles is Sea of Thieves
I disagree that it's better than The Division. It's not. The width of the content doesn't matter as much as the depth of the content, since it's the depth that makes it replayable. The Survival mode in Division is amazing despite the fact that it's using the same map. Underground is basically randomly generated dungeon.

Also Siege is on consoles. Now before you say it's only one map and two operator per DLC let me take this opportunity to come back to my previous point about depth. One map in siege is alone is an immense amount of work due to the way destruction works in the game. You can make tiny bullet sized holes through multiple walls to kill someone on the other side of the map. Balancing and designing something like that is an enormous amount of work. Then they have the operators every new operator in the game has to not only be designed to be able to fit into ALL the existing maps in the game (and remember how I mentioned each map is a several layer deep maze), but also fit in with the existing operator as inclusion of new operators changes even how older existing operators play. And Ubi does this 4 times a year. I have played Siege for about 700-800 hours and I am still finding strategies that I never knew I could use due to not knowing the maps fully. This sense of discovery can only come from depth.

Then I'll take a moment to mention Warframe. Recently the game started doing 3 DLCs a year, one big with an open area while 2 other smaller DLCs. This is the exact same as Destiny. But what pushed Warframe ahead is the various other content drops that it does in between those DLCs that leads to additions that "feel" substantial and that feeling is very important because that's what makes the content additions resonate with the community.

Additionally content drop isn't the only thing that matters. Another thing that matters is balancing and communication. Bungie is extremely poor when compared to its peers like Digital Extremes or Ubi in this area. They keep going back and forth and while they say they are listening it feels like they aren't and changes takes weeks and months at times. Digital Extremes even goes a step further and does weekly streams of Warframe where they set aside each day to talk about various aspects of the game/meta and engage with the fans over the course of the stream.
 

Dodgerfan74

Member
Dec 27, 2017
2,696
As bad as people make Destiny 2's content flow stream be... It's far better then Falout 76/The Division/Ark. The only game that does it better off the top of my head that is the same genre on consoles is Sea of Thieves

Gonna add one more for Division's content flow being comparable, at the very least. Survival could have been huge and I'll never understand how Ubi let the BR craze pass them by entirely instead of expanding that mode more. Division also got updates for an incredibly long time, including dramatic system overhauls and considerable improvements to things across the board.

Even though Fallout 76 is basically shovelware, it's too early to say anything definitive about its content stream.
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
I disagree that it's better than The Division. It's not. The width of the content doesn't matter as much as the depth of the content, since it's the depth that makes it replayable. The Survival mode in Division is amazing despite the fact that it's using the same map. Underground is basically randomly generated dungeon.

Also Siege is on consoles. Now before you say it's only one map and two operator per DLC let me take this opportunity to come back to my previous point about depth. One map in siege is alone is an immense amount of work due to the way destruction works in the game. You can make tiny bullet sized holes through multiple walls to kill someone on the other side of the map. Balancing and designing something like that is an enormous amount of work. Then they have the operators every new operator in the game has to not only be designed to be able to fit into ALL the existing maps in the game (and remember how I mentioned each map is a several layer deep maze), but also fit in with the existing operator as inclusion of new operators changes even how older existing operators play. And Uni does this 4 times a year.

Then I'll take a moment to mention Warframe. Recently the game started doing 3 DLCs a year, one big with an open area while 2 other smaller DLCs. This is the exact same as Destiny. But what pushed Warframe ahead is the various other content drops that it does in between those DLCs that leads to additions that "feel" substantial and that feeling is very important because that's what makes the content additions resonate with the community.

Additionally content drop isn't the only thing that matters. Another thing that matters is balancing and communication. Bungie is extremely poor when compared to its peers like Digital Extremes or Ubi in this area. Digital Extremes even goes a step further and does weekly streams of Warframe where they set aside each day to talk about various aspects of the game/meta and engage with the fans over the course of the stream.
You've moved goalposts. I am talking about actual content / assets in terms of their engine issues. The Division added little new areas asset wise. A set of armour in Destiny is typically unique and duplicated 3x with different textures ontop. I was underwhelmed by the Divisions content, as I am with Siege's. I understand that more thought goes into a Siege operator and map vs Crucible maps and weapons and that is a bottleneck. I do not agree that is the case with The Division.

Again I am talking content / assets. Not the depth to what those new assets and content provide.

The division has alot of post release support but the actual amount of assets and environments that it expanded is what I am talking about.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
You've moved goalposts. I am talking about actual content / assets in terms of their engine issues. The Division added little new areas asset wise. A set of armour in Destiny is typically unique and duplicated 3x with different textures ontop. I was underwhelmed by the Divisions content, as I am with Siege's. I understand that more thought goes into a Siege operator and map vs Crucible maps and weapons and that is a bottleneck. I do not agree that is the case with The Division.

Again I am talking content / assets. Not the depth to what those new assets and content provide.

The division has alot of post release support but the actual amount of assets and environments that it expanded is what I am talking about.
Oh well I see. And I'll conceed.
 

ColonelForbin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
601
I feel this was a good move by activision and maybe even bungie if they can self publish. The direction that bungie took destiny from the first game to the second was very disappointing. I think activisions money can be used better elsewhere. Good luck to bungie competing in a sea of upcoming loot shooters. I have no idea why anyone thinks that activision tainted the development so severely that we got destiny 2 the way we did. Do you really think activision forced bungies hand in changing their loot structure drastically? Or the story??? Or how they constantly had to adjust everything for PVP and PVE?? Activision was mostly involved in the micro transactions and probably the DLC structure.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Good luck to bungie competing in a sea of upcoming loot shooters. I have no idea why anyone thinks that activision tainted the development so severely that we got destiny 2 the way we did. Do you really think activision forced bungies hand in changing their loot structure drastically? Or the story??? Or how they constantly had to adjust everything for PVP and PVE?? Activision was mostly involved in the micro transactions and probably the DLC structure.

They are the loot shooter sea and all these other games are trying to ride those waves Bungie made. They will be fine, especially when Anthem doesn't have PvP.

Activision wanted COD levels of sales so the game got dumbed down. it worked, it sold a shit ton but there was nothing there for the people that don't leave to play the next hot thing.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
New York
They are the loot shooter sea and all these other games are trying to ride those waves Bungie made. They will be fine, especially when Anthem doesn't have PvP.

Activision wanted COD levels of sales so the game got dumbed down. it worked, it sold a shit ton but there was nothing there for the people that don't leave to play the next hot thing.

Exactly. I think Bungie will have far more freedom to innovate in the loot shooter space. I'm still shocked folk talking about Anthem as if it's the holy grail considering EA's history...
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
Exactly. I think Bungie will have far more freedom to innovate in the loot shooter space. I'm still shocked folk talking about Anthem as if it's the holy grail considering EA's history...
This forum doesn't like Destiny so any game that can compete in the same space is seen as the great white hope.

Same happened with Warframe and Division.
 
Oct 29, 2017
415
Procedural generation is all well and good, and should have a place in Destiny, but players need a reason to play. Something to chase, grind, and earn.

Man, we must be playing different games. I'm at 650 power level and I'm still chasing/grinding 10 separate quests/guns/items/etc. Ever since Forsaken, there is so much out there to chase (which is where the game shines IMO).
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,589
Why do people think Reach is bad? Reach for me was halo at its best not worst. CE then Reach are my top two

I think when people say that they don't like Reach, they are most often talking about the multiplayer specifically. Which it did have its issues such as poorer maps and disruptive Spartan abilities. But I think Reach has one of the best campaigns of the series and it finally fulfilled the promise of a major planet wide war first teased before Halo 2 came out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
Exactly. I think Bungie will have far more freedom to innovate in the loot shooter space. I'm still shocked folk talking about Anthem as if it's the holy grail considering EA's history...
I don't think people think that at all. A lot of people just want something fun to play while Destiny is in yet another boring lull thanks in large part to Black Armory being ridiculously awful. Having another multiplayer shooter is a good thing.

Why do people think Reach is bad? Reach for me was halo at its best not worst. CE then Reach are my top two

People are dumb. Reach was peak Halo. Everything since has been.....yuuuuuuuck.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
I think when people say that they don't like Reach, they are most often talking about the multiplayer specifically. Which it did have its issues such as poorer maps and disruptive Spartan abilities. But I think Reach has one of the best campaigns of the series and it finally fulfilled the promise of a major planet wide war first teased before Halo 2 came out.
I for the most part find it's campaign to be overrated, atleast in the story department as it retconned alot of things for no good reason.

And yes, Reach introduced Armor Abilities and Loadouts which started the downward trend.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Reach got a lot wrong. But we can at least agree Invasion, custom Firefight, Forge World, the armor customization and that ending were great.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
New York
I don't think people think that at all. A lot of people just want something fun to play while Destiny is in yet another boring lull thanks in large part to Black Armory being ridiculously awful. Having another multiplayer shooter is a good thing.

But isn't having another multi-player shooter being a net positive dependent on it being good? I just meant EA's track record doesn't inspire confidence and they've butchered far more games in far more ways than Bungie ever did.

As for black armory, I don't know their decision making progress for content but their biggest problem to me as someone that's been playing Destiny 2 since launch with no serious breaks is their prioritization of update features, lack of communication, and release cadence. Black armory itself had little to do with it.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
I don't think people think that at all. A lot of people just want something fun to play while Destiny is in yet another boring lull thanks in large part to Black Armory being ridiculously awful. Having another multiplayer shooter is a good thing.
Let's look at every Decemeber DLC for Destiny through the years in comparison.

Destiny 1 DLC 1 - The Dark Below, the crota raid was short and the prestige mode was a buggy mess.

Destiny 1: The Taken King Expansion - No DLC for a year, have fun running Kings Fall 500 times)

Destiny 1: Rise of Iron - No DLC for a year, reworked year 1 raids towards the end, nothing in December

Destiny 2 - Curse of Osirus, caused people to stop playing for four to five months, did damage to the game.

Destiny 2 - Black Arnory , 4 forges, on going drama from Forsaken still going on, new legendary items, a raid, 3 new exotics available, two more still to be released.

The clear winner is Black Armory.
 

funky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,527
I do wonder how this will effect the actual production and maintenance of Destiny since so much of Destiny 2 was co developed with internal Activsiion studios because Bungie didn't have the inhouse manpower.

Vicarious Visions co developed the PC version
HighMoon Studios made a lot of the actual content in Destiny 2 and its DLC

Now Bungie will be split between Destiny and their new IP

Thinking logically they will probably have to team up with another team for whatever Destiny 3 which (which Im gonna guess is going to be at least a 2021 game now) I remember they worked with Iron Galaxy for D1 but I believe that was just the PS3 version.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Let's look at every Decemeber DLC for Destiny through the years in comparison.

Destiny 1 DLC 1 - The Dark Below, the crota raid was short and the prestige mode was a buggy mess.

Destiny 1: The Taken King Expansion - No DLC for a year, have fun running Kings Fall 500 times)

Destiny 1: Rise of Iron - No DLC for a year, reworked year 1 raids towards the end, nothing in December

Destiny 2 - Curse of Osirus, caused people to stop playing for four to five months, did damage to the game.

Destiny 2 - Black Arnory , 4 forges, on going drama from Forsaken still going on, new legendary items, a raid, 3 new exotics available, two more still to be released.

The clear winner is Black Armory.

That's one way to have a skewered vision of reality.
 

Surface of Me

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,207
Let's look at every Decemeber DLC for Destiny through the years in comparison.

Destiny 1 DLC 1 - The Dark Below, the crota raid was short and the prestige mode was a buggy mess.

Destiny 1: The Taken King Expansion - No DLC for a year, have fun running Kings Fall 500 times)

Destiny 1: Rise of Iron - No DLC for a year, reworked year 1 raids towards the end, nothing in December

Destiny 2 - Curse of Osirus, caused people to stop playing for four to five months, did damage to the game.

Destiny 2 - Black Arnory , 4 forges, on going drama from Forsaken still going on, new legendary items, a raid, 3 new exotics available, two more still to be released.

The clear winner is Black Armory.

Nah, even as I trudged through the Flashpoint on Mercury this week, I never have thought Black Armory is better than CoO. I like how you just said "CoO bad" instead of actually comparing the content. New campaign/strikes, new adventures and lost sectors, new public event, new legendaries and exotics. It easily has over double what BA introduced.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Feel free to correct me then

Lol bruv, you purposefully cherry-picked your argument with content like Taken King and Rise of Iron ignoring everything they added while stretching out what Black Armory added as far as possible to fit your narrative. New legendary items and exotics, a new raid, pffft as if that ain't the standard for all of Destiny's DLC.

Black Armory is a wacky ass hill to die on for this game.

EDIT: Actually, I may be missing some context behind this whole argument in the first place and not realizing what y'all are actually arguing. But still I'm going to leave that up there and still call Black Armory mediocre because it's too much grindy ass garbage to get to the actual grind for rewards.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
Let's look at every Decemeber DLC for Destiny through the years in comparison.

Destiny 1 DLC 1 - The Dark Below, the crota raid was short and the prestige mode was a buggy mess.

Destiny 1: The Taken King Expansion - No DLC for a year, have fun running Kings Fall 500 times)

Destiny 1: Rise of Iron - No DLC for a year, reworked year 1 raids towards the end, nothing in December

Destiny 2 - Curse of Osirus, caused people to stop playing for four to five months, did damage to the game.

Destiny 2 - Black Arnory , 4 forges, on going drama from Forsaken still going on, new legendary items, a raid, 3 new exotics available, two more still to be released.

The clear winner is Black Armory.
The four forges are ridiculously boring. The raid is one of the absolute worst. No new strikes. No new gambit maps. No new patrol area. And much like Osiris, it's a clan killer. The difference being Osiris introduced better content despite being stuck in a horrible package thanks to D2 overall being garbage at the time.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
The four forges are ridiculously boring. The raid is one of the absolute worst. No new strikes. No new gambit maps. No new patrol area. And much like Osiris, it's a clan killer. The difference being Osiris introduced better content despite being stuck in a horrible package thanks to D2 overall being garbage at the time.
What did you expect for $10 🤔I mean seriously?

No new strikes because then they would be forced probably to make content for Sony. They obviously knew this split was happening.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Lol bruv, you purposefully cherry-picked your argument with content like Taken King and Rise of Iron ignoring everything they added while stretching out what Black Armory added as far as possible to fit your narrative. New legendary items and exotics, a new raid, pffft as if that ain't the standard for all of Destiny's DLC.

Black Armory is a wacky ass hill to die on for this game.

EDIT: Actually, I may be missing some context behind this whole argument in the first place and not realizing what y'all are actually arguing. But still I'm going to leave that up there and still call Black Armory mediocre because it's too much grindy ass garbage to get to the actual grind for rewards.
For $10 I got a bunch of shit
There was nothing to do between December-April for Taken King
Nothing new to do from December to April for Rise of Iron

You actually get more to do in black armory. On top of that they opened it up so people who don't buy black armory can still hit 650. There has been more to chase since forsaken dropped than any other destiny game that was not at the tail end of it's third year.

Edit: Warframe plays like complete ass compared to destiny it is not a suitable distraction let alone a replacement. I just purchased Anthem digitally, but I know it's not going to fill Destiny's shoes simply because it's a third person shooter and they will more than likely run into year one shared world shooter problems.
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
Warframe is fantastic though....

Also free, 1/5 of the developer team size and yet spits out content 20x faster
Warframe is fantastic - just very very different

Edit: Doesn't have the same focus on SP, PVP or Raid

very different model with the different expectation by nature of being free
 
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jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Nope, Halo is better off with 343 Industries if Destiny 1 and 2 are anything to go by. #Remember Reach.
Neither develops more halo games!
I don't think people think that at all. A lot of people just want something fun to play while Destiny is in yet another boring lull thanks in large part to Black Armory being ridiculously awful. Having another multiplayer shooter is a good thing.



People are dumb. Reach was peak Halo. Everything since has been.....yuuuuuuuck.
Except reach was the worst halo ever made. Having a good campaign doesn't excuse the fucking joke of multiplayer.