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Oct 27, 2017
4,290
Nottingham, UK
And also under the law their crime is severe enough to be tried as adults. That's how fucking heinous what they did was.
"The children — three girls and two boys, ages 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 — have been charged as juveniles with homicide."
unless something has changed they are being charged as juveniles
Do you? Because they're applying them in this case.
I admittedly dont, but it seems as though they aren't charging them as adults
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
Seattle
"The children — three girls and two boys, ages 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 — have been charged as juveniles with homicide."
unless something has changed they are being charged as juveniles

I admittedly dont, but it seems as though they aren't charging them as adults
I don't think that is decided at charging time; later in the court process the juvenile protections are requested to be waved and a judge determines whether to continue as a juvenile or try them as an adult.
 

Jmdajr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,534
Well that really depends, some people just don't have good parents, absentee parents, abusive parents. You're right wrong is wrong. It doesn't change what happened, but I'm sure it had an impact on their upbringing that only got worst with time.

But calling the killer a child is silly.......or maybe it's not silly, maybe we as society has to come to terms with the fact that kids are maturing quicker.

It's a tragedy, But it's tough for me to give a fuck about a killers rights basically.
Despite their upbringing, these acts get no leniency form me. They fucked up and they have to pay.

People are not wrong that folks from privileged backgrounds are less likely to be held accountable. Which is competelty unjust (duh). Wrong doers have to pay.
 

HeavenlyOne

The Fallen
Nov 30, 2017
2,350
Your heart
Do you think a murderer deserves a second chance, that's what this conversation seems to be boiling down to. I say no

I think someone who has committed murder could potentially prove that they deserve a second chance but it's a case by case thing. A simple yes or no answer is meaningless. Do these particular kids deserve a second chance? None us know anything about them to give a worthwhile answer to that question.

Humans don't instantly transition from child to adult. It's absurd to think that on the 17th of November 1997 I was not capable of handling the responsibilities of an adult, only for that to change once the 18th rolls around, but that's exactly how the law sees it. It's not feasible to evaluate millions of individual so we go with an arbitrary number that society has decided on.

Assuming that anyone under 18 is incapable of understanding what they've done and the difference between right and wrong is just as naive and simplistic a view as the lock-em-up-forever-and-throw-away-the-key take. It's just two extremes talking at each other regardless of the circumstances of a particular case.

I take issue with the insistence on rehab not punishment. It doesn't have to be one or the other. There is nothing inherently wrong with limiting ones freedom for a time as punishment for a crime. The problem with the prisons in America (and no doubt various other places) is the societies that are allowed to fester within that are even worse that the one they are being removed from. The issue is with the exact nature of the punishment, not simply that it's punitive.

Ultimately, imprisoning someone is easy, and can potentially always be an option. Rehabilitation is hard, and not always possible. I feel like I'm rambling now, but I guess my point is this is never as easy as people make it seem when arguing on internet forums. Except for the posting of those mugshots, that's 100% racist bullshit.

I never really know if you're going to just murder someone either. That's why we should have a panel of experts to assess them and work with them to determine the risk. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's impossible for us to evaluate.

People asked why Adrian Bayley was out on bail when he raped and murdered Jill Meagher, but that he was a serial rapist wasn't known at the time. The fact that this case was so high profile is what brought out his previous victims. You can only judge someone on the crimes you know they've committed, and if they aren't willing to reveal everything wrong they've done (and why would they) I don't believe they are at a point where they can be rehabilitated.

Experts could successfully rehabilitate a thousand prisoners but if they get it wrong once those thousand successes mean nothing in the eyes of the general public.

Yeah that's real fucked up, and the worst thing is it's probably a common sentiment.

This phenomenon also extends to adult men well into their 30s being described as "boys" as an excuse for any terrible thing they might say or do. Provided of course, that they aren't minorities.
 
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Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Trying kids as adult comes from racist history and is something that should be destroyed. There is a reason why nearly every western country does not do that
 

LanceX2

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,820
Personally i'm just against the idea of trying kids as adults! Plenty of people find it normal, i just don't

Of course they did something incredibly wrong and deserves some kind of punishement and rehabilitation (especially the younger ones), but they're freaking kids, trying them as adults is just plain wrong to me


I get it but....whats the difference of 17 and 18??

I get it these kids are 12 but goddamn this is heinous. Not an accident.

Did just one pull the trigger? If thatd the case. That kid needs to be in jail for awhile. The others maybe not as much. Not saying throw them away for 25 years but more then couple years

A man lost his life here for no fucking reason.
 

Evan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
922
They should go a way for life. I'm sure in 20 years the younger ones will think how dumb they were, but can't change the fact it happened.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,263
Some people don't deserve another chance. This musician didn't get one.
Trying kids as adult comes from racist history and is something that should be destroyed. There is a reason why nearly every western country does not do that
Are you saying trying white kids as adults also comes from racist history? Just trying to understand what you mean.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
Are you saying trying white kids as adults also comes from racist history? Just trying to understand what you mean.

This is definitely a racial issue in the US:


In many states, black juveniles end up in adult court in high numbers


In Florida, for example, two-thirds of juveniles transferred to the adult system are black, in a state where half the juveniles arrested are African-American, according to state confinement statistics. The disparity is even more obvious when one considers that fewer than 50 percent of Florida's prison inmates are black. The state's population is 17 percent African-American.


Florida isn't the only state where the disparity exists. An analysis of prison inmate data from nine states, including Texas and Illinois, found that African Americans who were juveniles at the time of their crimes make up a larger than expected proportion of the adult prison population. The same pattern, though weaker, holds for Hispanic youths as well.

Carmen Daugherty, policy director of the Youth First Initiative, an organization that advocates for less incarceration of juveniles, said the effect of routing juveniles into the adult system is clear in the high rate at which such inmates return to crime once their sentences are complete: Their recidivism rate is 34 percent higher than equivalent offenders who remain in the juvenile system.


And the impact of such laws is remarkably consistent across the states where records are available. Among all inmates listed as black or white in the nine analyzed states, roughly half the adults are black, while six in 10 juvenile transfers are. The most extreme case is Kentucky, where 20 percent of adult inmates are black, but 40 percent of juvenile transfers are black. Eight percent of Kentucky residents are black.


The Race Factor in Trying Juveniles as Adults

In our own work, we find that race can have a sweeping effect even when people consider the same crime. Prompting people to think of a single black (rather than white) juvenile offender leads them to express greater support for sentencing all juveniles to life without parole when they have committed serious violent crimes. Thinking about a black juvenile offender also makes people imagine that juveniles are closer to adults in their blameworthiness. Remarkably, this was true for both people who were low in prejudice and those who were high in prejudice and for both liberals and conservatives.


Prosecuting Juveniles in Adult Court An Assessment of Trends and Consequences
67% of juvenile defendants in adult court are black.
77% of juveniles sent to adult prison are minorities (60% black, 15% Hispanic, 1% American Indian, 1% Asian).
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Some people don't deserve another chance. This musician didn't get one.

Are you saying trying white kids as adults also comes from racist history? Just trying to understand what you mean.
These laws were created in the 90s during the war on crime era, but in actually these laws were created because white people were afraid of black kids. YOu the myth of the super predator kid etc that all were lies.
 

MetalGear?

Member
Nov 8, 2017
600
Personally i'm just against the idea of trying kids as adults! Plenty of people find it normal, i just don't

Of course they did something incredibly wrong and deserves some kind of punishement and rehabilitation (especially the younger ones), but they're freaking kids, trying them as adults is just plain wrong to me
And you would be correct in thinking that.
 

Exile20

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,054
I'm just wondering what happens to make kids like that. I was playing Mario Party at that age.
Lots. Parents not around, no one telling them right from wrong, bad environment, etc.

Do not think everyone had the same childhood as you. Some kids have such bad childhood that things like this happens. These kids are not evil. Just the environment they grew up in.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,306
Bumping this thread to share a Trevor Noah interview with an ex-felon who was tried as an adult and convicted of 1st-degree murder when he was 17, and sentenced to life in prison (he did get out, obviously):
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/t5nl3...g-adversity-after-prison---extended-interview
He talks about growing up in a world where violence is completely normalized, the importance of rehabilitation and giving second chances to minors who commit crimes, no matter how serious. Very interesting stuff, anyone going "lock them up away forever" definitely need to watch this.
If you can't watch the video you can always read this article about him, which describes a part of his story:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/krisztinaholly/2017/04/06/chriswilson/#43e7ce726f23
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,914
3 teens accused of murdering Nashville musician thrown out of court


Three of the five juveniles accused of killing Nashville musician Kyle Yorlets were removed from the courtroom during their hearing because the judge said he didn't feel they were taking the severity of the case seriously.

The three suspects - ages 13, 14 and 15 - appeared in juvenile court Thursday.

The judge said he excused the three teens because he didn't feel they were taking the severity of the case seriously and were treating it like it was a playground.

"I asked him to leave them in, there's other ways to keep the kids quiet, but I think he was fed up, and I was done with my questioning anyways, and I didn't see it making any difference," said attorney Michie Gibson. "I think they're children, and they don't know what serious yet. My client is immature, and every child I've observed in this is immature, I don't think they know what's happening and how serious this is."

A Metro Police detective testified that two of the teens who appeared in court have admitted to robbing Yorlets at his north Nashville home.

The 13-year-old male suspect also admitted to police that he and another juvenile had a handgun when they robbed Yorlets, but the teen didn't say who shot.

The five juveniles, ages 12 to 16, face charges in connection with the death of Yorlets earlier this month.

Police said they found two guns at the Walmart where the five suspects were located, but attorneys questioned the detective about where one of the guns was found.

The detective testified the three suspects who were in court on Thursday were the first to be put in a patrol car after they were found.

The detective said the officer ran inside the store to find the other suspects, and when they came back out, there was a loaded handgun found in the driver's seat of the patrol car. The detective says the suspects may have tossed it up there.


The detective also talked about witness accounts.

A next-door neighbor of Yorlets told police they witnessed the shooting, but told police they saw Yorlets run into his home, so the witness thought he wasn't hit.

When police checked the home after the initial 911 call, no one answered the door.

Yorlets' roommate found him later. He later died at the hospital.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/teens-acc...cle_bd3f58ca-3628-11e9-9943-e36e51b0828b.html
 

Violence Jack

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,671

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,914
This is heartbreaking. Kids don't seem to care about taking this guy's life. Also didn't know he called the police but wasn't found until too late and probably suffered greatly during his final hours.

Yeah the part about the police going to his house, but not going inside was just sad. If they had gone in they probably could have saved him.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
I spent this whole thread saying they should be tried as adults. After reading the above I think they need extensive mental health counseling instead. Something I don't think they will get in a prison (at least not the level of help I think they need)

At least those 3, idk what was up with the 17 year old
 

Emiya777

Banned
Jan 14, 2019
358
These kids are on beyond rehab. Even if they are released they have no family so they will be on government dollar their whole lives. Don't waste any resources on them.
 

KelThaFunkee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
176
Why do we even have a legal age to then say they knew what they were doing? Are you going to blame R Kelly's victims for what happened to them?
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,646
These kids are on beyond rehab. Even if they are released they have no family so they will be on government dollar their whole lives. Don't waste any resources on them.
They would be on "government dollar" either way, at least for a while. There would be zero chance of society paying their bills if they never got out of prison, if they did get out at least they would have the chance to make something of themselves.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,837
The detective said the officer ran inside the store to find the other suspects, and when they came back out, there was a loaded handgun found in the driver's seat of the patrol car. The detective says the suspects may have tossed it up there.

Ditched the gun in...the cop car?
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,925

Mechanized

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,442
Well this is infuriating. Eh they murdered a guy and they don't care, let em go. The fuck.

Edit: interpreted the headline wrong.
 

KelThaFunkee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
176
I don't know how you could possibly make that connection.
There was one girl in the doc who showed up to his trial, he noticed her and ended up getting her contact info. He eventually made her one of his slaves because he knew she was vulnerable. Are we ok with saying she was high school age and knew he was possibly a child molester, but it's her fault for getting with him anyway?
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
These kids are on beyond rehab. Even if they are released they have no family so they will be on government dollar their whole lives. Don't waste any resources on them.

That isn't true at all. "REHAB" isn't even a thing in america for criminals. Rehab works. Its not used due to the private prison lobby.

So now, since rehab doesn't work in america, due to making 0% effort -- you get to cover these kids expenses in prison forever. That makes so much sense. At the same times americans complain about taxes.

lol.

802.jpg


sums up pretty much every system here at this point.


I vote they just be publicly executed. Just get it over with.
 
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Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,532
Switzerland
These kids are on beyond rehab. Even if they are released they have no family so they will be on government dollar their whole lives. Don't waste any resources on them.

No, it's especially because they're still kids that rehab is absolutely necessary and still possible! Rehab works even for adults
Like you said they had no family! They had shit childhood, nobody to care for them , were probably influenced by bad people (kids are impresionnable, you should know that) and we're supposed to just give up and let them rot? Great soceity you have there


Again not saying what they didn't isn't terrible, they should definitely face the consequences, but they shouldn't be tried as adult and should get help, juvies are there for that! These are kids, 12-13 years old, they're far from done in term of developpment and mentality