Can anyone explain what's happening in Venezuela? Dictator Maduro hated by majority but, Trump Admin / VP Pence and Bolsonaro backing opposition?

Iloelemen · Jan 23, 2019

So from what I understand, Maduros' Administration caused tons of suffering such as intense hunger in Venezuela. The recent election was heavily rigged causing him to win again. So, he's been silencing opposition and jailing people that are against him so basically, fascy dictatorship. So, the people are fed up by him so they're now protesting.

So there's this Authoritarian president (from what I understand) in Venezuela right now. At the same time, this other fashy authoritarian governent is, at the very least, in support of the opposition. Now let's be clear, of course Maduro is bad, and the hatred of him by the general populace due to his greed and corruption is of course valid.

It's just kinda weird that there's this:

The night before Juan Guaidó declared himself interim president of Venezuela, the opposition leader received a phone call from Vice President Mike Pence.

Mr. Pence pledged that the U.S. would back Mr. Guaidó if he seized the reins of government from Nicolás Maduro by invoking a clause in the South American country's constitution, a senior administration official said.

That late-night call set in motion a plan that had been developed in secret over the preceding several weeks, accompanied by talks between U.S. officials, allies, lawmakers and key Venezuelan opposition figures, including Mr. Guaidó himself.

It culminated in the 35-year-old Mr. Guaidó's declaration Wednesday that Mr. Maduro's government was illegitimate and that Mr. Guaidó, president of the country's National Assembly, was assuming power in accordance with the country's constitution.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/22/world/americas/venezuela-usa-nicolas-maduro.html
and well, Trumps backing of the opposition

and there's Far-right president Jair Bolsonaro
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-restore-democracy-in-venezuela-idUSKCN1PC00N

Brazil's far-right President Jair Bolsonaro said on Thursday he would do all he could to "to re-establish order and democracy" in Venezuela, while his foreign minister met with Venezuelan opposition leaders.
The right-wing government of Bolsonaro on Saturday said it recognized Juan Guaido, a Venezuelan opposition leader who is head of the congress, as the rightful president of Venezuela - even though Guaido himself has not proclaimed himself president.

This is not to say that Juan Guaido is suddently a far-right fascist himself. He is Center-left from what I've seen.

and of course, there's the Trump administration discussing coup plan with Venezuelan rebel military which apparently might be right-wing? I don't know

But one of the Venezuelan military commanders involved in the secret talks was hardly an ideal figure to help restore democracy: He is on the American government's own sanctions list of corrupt officials in Venezuela.

He and other members of the Venezuelan security apparatus have been accused by Washington of a wide range of serious crimes, including torturing critics, jailing hundreds of political prisoners, wounding thousands of civilians, trafficking drugs and collaborating with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, which is considered a terrorist organization by the United States.

So yeah, fashy governments hating on another fashy government so they support opposition. But, fashy government still gonna be fashy which feels weird to me, this whole thing.

It's good I think that corrupt authoritarian government might be removed as per the will of the people but, is it wrong for me to find it weird that's it's with the help of (at least ) a fascist government?
Is this good? Bad? Can someone explain this to me.

Edit:
This post is useful in getting a grasp on the situation behind Venezuela

JonnyDBrit said:
Honestly one of the most useful reads I've had for this whole sordid affair was this comic, courtesy of one Mike Centeno, a venezuelan artist who left the country about eight years ago:
https://thenib.com/what-happened-to-venezuela-isn-t-so-simple

Now, one can claim this slots him in the supposed middle to upper class who dislike Maduro because 'socialism', but considering the point of comparison used in the comic is that of the rise of the American far right, I think it's more down to the actual corruption and cult of personality. One particular thing of note is how yes, externally, it's easy to view things in purely political terms where things take sudden and dramatic turns, and crippling disaster seems imminent, vs the slower burn that most people have actually lived through. They just try to get by as best they can.

Edit2:
For the lefty folks there

Edit3:

Mike Pompeo just named Eliot Abrams his new special envoy for Venezuela. Abrams plead guilty to withholding information from Congress about the Iran-Contra affair. Pompeo says Abrams will be in charge of "all things related to our efforts to restore Democracy in Venezuela."

Platy · Jan 23, 2019

long story short :

Bolsonaro and Trump and far right

Maduro is left leaning

Comunist bad american freedom good

Elfotografoalocado · Jan 23, 2019

Maduro is leader of a supposedly leftist, Bolivarian party. As a result, the world's authoritarian right-wingers are very eager to point out THIS particular dictatorship, to say how anything remotely progressive will turn their country into Venezuela.

Before Chavez 20 years ago, the country had lots of inequality and poverty, racism, problems with debt, a stale two party system with poor quality democracy, social instability, repression and so forth. While the Chavez government did alleviate poverty, his brand of populism eroded democracy, and the country slowly became a pariah state thanks to the US. After the death of Chavez, Maduro took over and ran the country to the ground.

The thing is, the political climate has always been problematic, and the Venezuelan right-wing is, well... Venezuelan right-wing, not very democratic, racist as all hell, etc. which means that the opposition is divided and often sees dubious associations as well. It's a common thing in South America, thanks in great deal to racism and to American intervention to preserve right-wing Apartheid systems in the continent. Of course with time, the opposition in Venezuela has united around democratizing figures and ideals.

And that's how you have authoritarian righwingers promoting the democratic opposition to a dictatorship, for all the wrong reasons.

Deleted member 8860 · Jan 23, 2019

https://www.resetera.com/threads/donald-trump-has-recognized-juan-guaidó-as-the-interim-president-of-venezuela.95281/

"Good" and "bad" are simplistic takes, at best.

Metallix87 · Jan 23, 2019

Platy said:
long story short :

Bolsonaro and Trump and far right

Maduro is left leaning

Comunist bad american freedom good

This is a really poor summary of the situation.

Venezuela is essentially falling apart because of Maduro and his Communist government. The people are now in open revolt against him. Trump, Trudeau, and Bolsonaro are backing the man who has already taken an Oath as interim President. Maduro is on his way out.

Deleted member 198 · Jan 23, 2019

Uhhh I'm pretty sure Maduro has fucked the entire economy, and his Russian backed crypto currency hasn't helped either.

gutter_trash · Jan 23, 2019

Canada is not far right and they are echoing the same sentiment of wanting Maduro to go.

Many EU countries will also follow suit, especially Portugal that is facing the return of many 2nd and 3rd Generation Venezuelans returning to Portugal after having their mom & pop shops ransacked by the Maduro communists

Platy · Jan 23, 2019

Metallix87 said:
Venezuela is essentially falling apart because of Maduro and his Communist government. The people are now in open revolt against him.

Take away communist goverment and there are more countries that fit the description. Zero words on Trump and Bolsonaro side against those.

ZealousD · Jan 23, 2019

Just a reminder that things don't actually exist on a left vs right, good vs evil spectrum.

Metallix87 · Jan 23, 2019

Platy said:
Take away communist goverment and there are more countries that fit the description. Zero words on Trump and Bolsonaro side against those.

Whataboutism.

Bonafide · Jan 23, 2019

operation condor 2019

Platy · Jan 23, 2019

ZealousD said:
Just a reminder that things don't actually exist on a left vs right, good vs evil spectrum.

Bolsonaros entire presidential campaing and elected speech was based on "taking away the cultural marxism" and "kill the communists" and "This is the beginning of Brazil's liberation from socialism"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino...rated-socialism-political-correctness-n953736

While I agree that things are more complicated than left vs right, that is Bolsonaro's entire "build a wall" thing

shnurgleton · Jan 23, 2019

Venezuela is objectively a train wreck so it's easy to side with the ineffectual dictator's opposition. However Trump and the rightosphere probably wouldn't care so much if Maduro wasn't nominally a socialist

VectorPrime · Jan 23, 2019

Platy said:
long story short :

Bolsonaro and Trump and far right

Maduro is left leaning

Comunist bad american freedom good

This is a sub-preschool level of understanding of the situation. Good god.

Kirblar · Jan 23, 2019

ZealousD said:
Just a reminder that things don't actually exist on a left vs right, good vs evil spectrum.

They do, but they're on multiple spectrums at once simultaneously, not a singular one. Once you start splitting things out into 2 or 3 dimensions the overlaps become obvious.

MrChocolate · Jan 23, 2019

Bonafide said:
operation condor 2019

Pretty much any educated person would reach the same conclusion. That said, Maduro should have left long time ago, you can't sustain a revolution like that for 20 years. Venezuela is not Cuba and Chavez was not Fidel.

Zedelima · Jan 23, 2019

Wait...people really think here that this all about Maduro being from the "left"?

Are we taking out all the human rights violations, people being murdered, faked elections and people starving from the equation? This fucker is a dictador in a facke democracy, where he faked more than once the elections
If so, shame on you era, defending someone just because they are from the "left". None of you care about human beings

ty_hot · Jan 23, 2019

No matter the explanation, it is as clear as water that it is a coup backed by the USA. Which is ALWAYS shameful.

Metallix87 · Jan 23, 2019

ty_hot said:
No matter the explanation, it is as clear as water that it is a coup backed by the USA. Which is ALWAYS shameful.

You... want Trump to defend and support Maduro?

jph139 · Jan 23, 2019

The American right wing has had Venezuela on their shit list since Bush vs. Chavez in the early 2000s and Maduro as his heir apparent, it's pretty low-risk, ideologically, for them to back the opposition here. And frankly it's been such a shitshow under his rule that there's no real reason not to condemn him.

In spirit it goes back 100+ years of American intervention in Latin America. "Dictators are fine, but only if they're ours."

Sintax · Jan 23, 2019

I never trust accusations of dictatorially imposed suffering under openly far-left governments by the Western press. Maduro, who has earnestly tried to repair a dysfunctional country that's been under repeated assault ever since Chavez took office two decades ago, is far preferable to Bolsonaro and Trump.

AztecComplex · Jan 23, 2019

Metallix87 said:
This is a really poor summary of the situation.

Venezuela is essentially falling apart because of Maduro and his Communist government. The people are now in open revolt against him. Trump, Trudeau, and Bolsonaro are backing the man who has already taken an Oath as interim President. Maduro is on his way out.

Is he now???? They've had Chavismo for more than 2 years, what makes you think this is when it's gonna end?

ty_hot · Jan 23, 2019

Metallix87 said:
You... want Trump to defend and support Maduro?

You want to give Trump the right to decide who is legit and who isn't? He might start with someone you dont like and later do the same with someone else you dont agree... But then you can't complain.

Right for self-determination.

Iloelemen · Jan 23, 2019

Zedelima said:
Wait...people really think here that this all about Maduro being from the "left"?

Are we taking out all the human rights violations, people being murdered, faked elections and people starving from the equation? This fucker is a dictador in a facke democracy, where he faked more than once the elections
If so, shame on you era, defending someone just because they are from the "left". None of you care about human beings

There's this weird amount of indirect implied defense for Maduro. It's weird. It intersects with the the hate against US intervention (and far-right Brazil's support). ;

Hops · Jan 23, 2019

Canada is also supporting this. And other latin american countries. Why are you focusing only on Trump and Bolsonaro????

Metallix87 · Jan 23, 2019

Sintax said:
I never trust accusations of dictatorially imposed suffering under openly far-left governments by the Western press. Maduro, who has earnestly tried to repair a dysfunctional country that has been under repeated assault ever since Chavez took office, is far preferable to Bolsonaro and Trump.

I'm sure the mass protests and people outright fleeing the country because of starvation are just illusory constructs of the Western press.

MrChocolate · Jan 23, 2019

Zedelima said:
Wait...people really think here that this all about Maduro being from the "left"?

Are we taking out all the human rights violations, people being murdered, faked elections and people starving from the equation? This fucker is a dictador in a facke democracy, where he faked more than once the elections
If so, shame on you era, defending someone just because they are from the "left". None of you care about human beings

Videla? Pinochet? Plan Z?, etc. Never saw Nixon saying shit, or Kissinger or any other murderer. Good thing USA grew a conscience in 40 years.

AztecComplex · Jan 23, 2019

Sintax said:
I never trust accusations of dictatorially imposed suffering under openly far-left governments by the Western press. Maduro, who has earnestly tried to repair a dysfunctional country that has been under repeated assault ever since Chavez took office, is far preferable to Bolsonaro and Trump.

I take it you're not living in Venezuela? Say that to an actual Era Venezuelan and see how that goes.

gutter_trash · Jan 23, 2019

people really need to take off their Right goggles and their Left goggles.

Maduro needs to go

Regulus Tera · Jan 23, 2019

Maduro very obviously robbed the election, but I'm worried if the US is planning to intervene.

Metallix87 · Jan 23, 2019

ty_hot said:
You want to give Trump the right to decide who is legit and who isn't? He might start with someone you dont like and later do the same with someone else you dont agree... But then you can't complain.

Right for self-determination.

The people have determined they want Maduro out. Trump is supporting the individual who was elected and has taken the Oath of Office.

Maduro is a tyrannical dictator.

Netherscourge · Jan 23, 2019

Bolsonaro probably offered Trump a spot for a Trump Tower.

ibyea · Jan 23, 2019

Sintax said:
I never trust accusations of dictatorially imposed suffering under openly far-left governments by the Western press. Maduro, who has earnestly tried to repair a dysfunctional country that's been under repeated assault ever since Chavez took office two decades ago, is far preferable to Bolsonaro and Trump.

False, this was a mostly self imposed problem by the Chavistas caused by an over reliance on petroleum and currency control.

CenturionNami · Jan 23, 2019

Platy said:
long story short :

Bolsonaro and Trump and far right

Maduro is left leaning

Comunist bad american freedom good

Communist good, capitalism bad the fucking post. Are you even acknowledging that Maduro has done extremely horrible things and hurt his country a million times over?

Lidl · Jan 23, 2019

Sintax said:
I never trust accusations of dictatorially imposed suffering under openly far-left governments by the Western press.

You could maybe, sort of make that argument with Chavez, but Maduro is simply corrupt and is not afraid to show it.

Vulcano's Assistant · Jan 23, 2019

Because even if Maduro was only pretending to be leftist, they can still say it is a win for the right.

edit: besides, it is the only reasonable position to take.

Squarehard · Jan 23, 2019

Platy said:
long story short :

Bolsonaro and Trump and far right

Maduro is left leaning

Comunist bad american freedom good

Maduro is going to have to start leaning a lot harder if he's even to start being considered as "left leaning" in the minimal of exceptions of reason.

Platy · Jan 23, 2019

Zedelima said:
Are we taking out all the human rights violations, people being murdered, faked elections and people starving from the equation? This fucker is a dictador in a facke democracy, where he faked more than once the elections

EVERYTHING you mentioned Brazil had in their Military Dictatorship years. You know who is a big fan of Brazil's Military Dictatorship ?

Bolso fucking Naro

Bolsonaro literally had an office with the dictator presidents of the Brazilian Military Dictatorship pictures on the wall. There is literally video of Bolsonaro saying the Military Dictatorship didn't killed enough

ZealousD · Jan 23, 2019

Zedelima said:
Wait...people really think here that this all about Maduro being from the "left"?

Are we taking out all the human rights violations, people being murdered, faked elections and people starving from the equation? This fucker is a dictador in a facke democracy, where he faked more than once the elections
If so, shame on you era, defending someone just because they are from the "left". None of you care about human beings

The only reason Trump/Bolsanaro hate Maduro is because he's leftist. They don't actually care that he's a dictator. They want to be dictators themselves.

That doesn't mean Maduro is in the clear. These are two different factions of bad people.

Iloelemen · Jan 23, 2019

Regulus Tera said:
Maduro very obviously robbed the election, but I'm worried if the US is planning to intervene.

This.

ty_hot · Jan 23, 2019

Metallix87 said:
The people have determined they want Maduro out. Trump is supporting the individual who was elected and has taken the Oath of Office.

Maduro is a tyrannical dictator.

Why isn't Trump against other dictators? Come on, dont bring this to the table. We all know what the US did, does and will keep doing in South America. The US keeps destabilizing governments and helping coups happen, as long as the new leader is their subservient ally.

Also this is just Trump and Bolsonaro trying to create some favorable news because they are both inside scandals in their countries.

Deleted member 2840 · Jan 23, 2019

Platy said:
Take away communist goverment and there are more countries that fit the description. Zero words on Trump and Bolsonaro side against those.

Platy let's remember that our Left isn't that much better with THIS matter, what with PT supporting a disgusting human being like Maduro.

Masoyama · Jan 23, 2019

Sintax said:
I never trust accusations of dictatorially imposed suffering under openly far-left governments by the Western press. Maduro, who has earnestly tried to repair a dysfunctional country that's been under repeated assault ever since Chavez took office two decades ago, is far preferable to Bolsonaro and Trump.

Holy shit. Ok dont trust the media, go to venezuela then. I have fucking family being chased out of the country. Back in costa rica my family has opened like half a dozen rooms among all of us to try and and accept refugees and help them settle. Just shut the fuck up with thr uninformed takes.

Gamesadict · Jan 23, 2019

Post #3 is the best explanation so far. Chavez long term fucked the country with his policies and by putting loyalists all over the government instead of people that knew what they were even doing. When he died, they no longer had his cult of personality to keep everything in place, and Maduro has resorted to fucking everything up even further, human rights violations and a ton of shit happening all over the country.

Anyway, you see Trump, Pence and Bolsonaro going after Venezuela extensively because they want to show what happens when a remotely leftist government takes over. Every single presidential election here in South America has people falling back to how they vote for the right winger because he is "the only way to avoid becoming another Venezuela"… even though Venezuela went for over a decade of having its institutions fucked by Chavez.
Here in Colombia? Reelection is no longer allowed, so 4 year limits for all presidents.

It's funny seeing Bolsonaro defenders talking shit about Maduro considering what Bolsonaro has said.

KillLaCam · Jan 23, 2019

Maduro is bad but they're just doing it because he's on the left

Metallix87 · Jan 23, 2019

ty_hot said:
Why isn't Trump against other dictators? Come on, dont bring this to the table. We all know what the US did, does and will keep doing in South America. The US keeps destabilizing governments and helping coups happen, as long as the new leader is their subservient ally.

Also this is just Trump and Bolsonaro trying to create some favorable news because they are both inside scandals in their countries.

Wtf is with the strange whataboutism in this thread?

The people are in open revolt. A new acting interim President has been sworn in. This is nothing like situations in other dictatorships.

Kirblar · Jan 23, 2019

Zedelima said:
Wait...people really think here that this all about Maduro being from the "left"?

Are we taking out all the human rights violations, people being murdered, faked elections and people starving from the equation? This fucker is a dictador in a facke democracy, where he faked more than once the elections
If so, shame on you era, defending someone just because they are from the "left". None of you care about human beings

There are a disturbing amount of Chavez progagnda puff pieces from the '00s floating out there on the internet.

Sintax said:
I never trust accusations of dictatorially imposed suffering under openly far-left governments by the Western press. Maduro, who has earnestly tried to repair a dysfunctional country that's been under repeated assault ever since Chavez took office two decades ago, is far preferable to Bolsonaro and Trump.

And this is the effect of it. People believing that Chavez was a success undermined by Venezuela's internal "Deep State" and external "Soros" conspiracy equivalents instead of seeing him for what he really was- a man who destroyed his own country's petro-economy and used the short-term gains from plundering the industry to pay for unsustainable spending that plunged the nation into darkness when the oil revenue stopped flowing in.

AztecComplex · Jan 23, 2019

gutter_trash said:
people really need to take off their Right goggles and their Left goggles.

Maduro needs to go

Era is so used to more "nuanced" political discussions between right and left they forget in Venezuela Maduro is not normal "left" he's a tyrannical dictator with almost cartoonishly evil tendencies who has his country in poverty, famine, crazy inflation where their Bolivar is worth nothing, etc.

This is not right vs left.

Platy · Jan 23, 2019

saci said:
Platy let's remember that our Left isn't that much better with THIS matter, what with PT supporting a disgusting human being like Maduro.

holy shit we have a "but PT" diversion tactic even on a english speaking forum talking about maduro =O

Nobody here even knows PT exist =P
"Lula ta preso, babaca" ... PT does not matter anymore.

Noodle · Jan 23, 2019

Platy said:
long story short :

Bolsonaro and Trump and far right

Maduro is left leaning

Comunist bad american freedom good

Can anyone explain what's happening in Venezuela? Dictator Maduro hated by majority but, Trump Admin / VP Pence and Bolsonaro backing opposition?

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