Yes, but not only militarily, but also they shouldn't intervene by funding coups (or having the CIA "assist" with coups, as they've done so many times in the past)
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Can anyone explain what's happening in Venezuela? Dictator Maduro hated by majority but, Trump Admin / VP Pence and Bolsonaro backing opposition?
- Thread starter Iloelemen
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Yes, but not only militarily, but also they shouldn't intervene by funding coups (or having the CIA "assist" with coups, as they've done so many times in the past)
Laughable how people are using the support as a barometer over which choice is right or wrong. wRPG logic over geopolitics.
Peaceful dialogue, from both sides! Only Venezuelans can solve this crisis, not foreign intervention! /s
Trump isn't as bad as Erdogan, Putin, or Maduro, so that leaves you with Bolsonaro. I'm not going to defend a fucking Nazi like Bolsonaro, but his support for the interim President does not make Guaido a fascist, as well.
That is a member of congress, who happens to come from a war torn region, who also recently got a committee position in the Foreign Affairs Committee.
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The leading figure of the opposition in Venezuela seems to be someone from the center. But, how much of far-right forces are there? As horrid as Maduro is, this seems like a perfect opportunity for a far-right force to co-opt whatever is happening now. And, it is likely that there's a presence of far-right people among those revolting. Of course, it's absurd to assume a majority of anti-Maduro people are far-right.
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By the way, thoughts on this bill?
H.R.21 - Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2019
It includes this:
It is of note that Khanna, Omar and AOC are in favor of this bill though it is probable that they were in favor for the majority of this huge thing instead of just the tiny part about Venezuela.
H.R.21 - Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2019
It includes this:
It is of note that Khanna, Omar and AOC are in favor of this bill though it is probable that they were in favor for the majority of this huge thing instead of just the tiny part about Venezuela.
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pretty messed up that ilhan omar voted to support america's coup of venzuela then turned around to denounce it on social media.
I'm starting to think a staffer gave her a list of things to tweet about and she just tweeted it out without really fact checking. I'm wondering if she is going to address the hundreds of people calling out her facts on social media.
US imperialism at its finest. What do you think "promote democracy" means? What does the US know about these things when they have the highest prison population on Earth, shoots and imprisons black and brown people without impunity, routinely invades and overthrow democratically elected governments (Chile for example), bombs non-Americans with drones across the Middle East and Africa, enforce voter suppression, a militarized police force, a massive wealth disparity despite being one of the richest countries, etc.? And the government in charge in the US is a bunch of fascists so what good will their brand of democracy do?
And who gives the US the right to come in and "promote democracy" (lol) in another sovereign country? The same criticism is apparently levelled at Russia in 2016 but "it's okay when we do it!"
This is why the US is one big joke that unfortunately bullies and forces its will on others through sheer brutal force
Your argument would have more teeth had anyone you're disagreeing with supported those claims.
Weird tangent with Russia, you ok with what they did?
User banned (1 week): Repeatedly spamming the same post throughout the thread, history of recent infractions
Lol it's to point out the fucking hypocrisy of people complaining about Russian meddling in 2016, while being totally fine with the same shit when the US does it, such as the bill above.
By this horrific logic Trump is on the left.
The US isn't interfering in elections when there are literally no legitimate elections taking place.
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Which is fair to be upset about. I don't like it, either. Do you have anything else supporting how he's far-right? What are his policies? What's his history?
You're not doing a good job convincing people they're hypocrites here, since they've said they don't agree with that. Where's the meat of this argument? I'm not seeing much here other than emotional reasoning with the barest of evidence.
So?
One, that's not my congress.
Two, lots of dumbasses in my congress in all sorts of committees, so that means very little to me.
This is an extremely dumb equivalency you're trying to promote here.
It tells you enough about the spine of Guiaido if he's warming up to a fucking fascist. But good job equating a fascist like Bolsanaro to Obrador! Horseshoe theory at work.
And fucking wow at your excuse for US imperialism and all the points I listed about why the US shouldn't be promoting their "democracy" in other countries. What horrible hypocrisy.
It isn't saying he's far right, but it sure as he'll indicate how he wants to work with a straight up fascist.
A fascist paternalist, of courseWhere does Canada fit into this?
This guy is their current president.
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It's probably to point out how there's this huge hyperfocus on Russia's worldwide shady influence whereas US imperialistic influence isn't as focused on.
Of course US imperialism and meddles with other countries get criticized all the time. It's just that, the degree of concern has a limit.
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The point is not to confirm his own policies but it illustrate his willingness to cozy up with straight up fascists.
I thought it would be pretty apparent how hypocritical it would be to on one hand, call out Russia's meddling in the 2016 election, and then somehow think it's fine for the US to meddle in another country's elections and political state.
I guess the only reason some people aren't convinced by the hypocrisy is because they don't see anything wrong when the US exerts its will via "meddling" in other countries - as they have done for almost a century by now with millions of lives to its name.
There's not a single country in the world that has broken relations with Brazil. All countries in the region work with Brazil. What is even your point? What Guaido did is merely basic diplomacy.
You're just spewing nonsense in your attempt to discredit Guaido.
Again, with thinking people are fine with the United States meddling with Venezuela.
No matter how many times people try to state that this is not what they are talking about, when these posters are driven in the corner after people explain how their posts is wrong it's the one thing they'll repeat again and again.
Someone please count the amount of times this has happened in this thread.
No matter how many times people try to state that this is not what they are talking about, when these posters are driven in the corner after people explain how their posts is wrong it's the one thing they'll repeat again and again.
Someone please count the amount of times this has happened in this thread.
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Has there been any country's government that has criticized him since his win?
"let me just congratulate this fascist who wants to torture LGBTQ people, kill leftists, bulldoze the entire Amazon forest and praise him for his commitment to democracy and human rights" to all my followers. It's just going an extra level that's not necessary if you had political principles that oppose fascism.
The point is not the discredit him, but give you an indication of his willingness to work with straight up fascists.
are we reading the same thread? I am seeing a whole bunch of approval of Trump's imperialist endeavor, and a whole lot of hostility against anyone who opposes this form US imperialism along with strawman bullshit like "you support Maduro". It's frankly unbearable and heart-wrenching to read, because it tells me that people haven't learned shit from Iraq and Afghanistan - to not talk about Chile, Iran, Indonesia, Honduras, Iraq in the 90's, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, and all the many, many times that the US invades or overthrows other countries. It tells me that even when a fucking fascist like Trump is doing horrible shit with the approval of another fascist like Bolsanaro, people still support US imperialism.
Well, given that the economic support fund is part of our foreign aid program, I assume it means foreign aid.
I find worrying how there is people that seem to have a cartoon-level appreciation of morality and how reality works. The world is a lil' bit more complex than 'good guys' and 'evil guys', and 'good guys support good guys' and 'evil guys support evil guys', as if this was a freaking Overwatch story with two sides, the 'heroes' and the 'villains'.
Just because Trump or Pence are bad, it doesn't mean they have to support a would-be dictator.
Hell, even if you could divide the world as easily as that, it wouldn't mean the 'bad guys' would have to support between them, usually one of their defining features are self-centeredness and egoism. In the real world Iran, Syria, Irak, Quatar and Arabia Saudi are not good friends, even if neither are good friends with Israel. And Israel isn't precisely one of the good guys in lots of things but I digress...
Just because Trump or Pence are bad, it doesn't mean they have to support a would-be dictator.
Hell, even if you could divide the world as easily as that, it wouldn't mean the 'bad guys' would have to support between them, usually one of their defining features are self-centeredness and egoism. In the real world Iran, Syria, Irak, Quatar and Arabia Saudi are not good friends, even if neither are good friends with Israel. And Israel isn't precisely one of the good guys in lots of things but I digress...
Where you're losing people is that you're not giving convincing evidence he is truly a fascist. One customary tweet is not a fadcist make. You haven't given any in-depth coverage that he's a fascist as I asked upthread. What in his history or policies make him a fascist?
That's not in question, the conflict comes into that people have told you straight up they disagree with that and you're ignoring it, and you're conflating the meddling in both countries to a degree where I'm not certain you know the difference between acknowledging a POTUS and the meddling Russia did. We're simply supposed to take your word for it, based on almost nothing. State your case.
"Some people" not being in this thread. It's not hypocrisy when the people you're condemning don't believe it in the first place.
oh my sweet summer child
That's exactly what I wasn't saying.
I haven't seen anyone stating the case for why this should be different than being mad about Russian interference.
you have resident conservative Kirblar right above you as just one example of excusing US imperialism. Then there's Stinkles, some dude who hates Russian interference with a passion but somehow thinks this is entirely fine. And that's just the top off my head - plenty of others throughout the thread. A whole lot of US exceptionalism for some liberals on here.
if people still don't get why it's a problem, read this open letter signed by 70 US scholars and experts
That's all you've been saying for pages now. I've asked twice for evidence about Guaido about his policies and history proving he's a fascist and you've ignored me so your credibility about caring about the people hurt under Madura is getting thin. If you had a strong argument for this you'd have made it already, instead you're doubling down on undermining the credibility of people who disagree with you on the mildest of stances as if all that stands between someone being good or bad in your eyes is whether Trump gives up a thumbs up to the. Context be damned.
Do you even know who Justin Trudeau is?
This is a deflection, and a poor one. I've gone over the gist because I'd have thought you've have educated yourself on what exactly the Russians did. I'm going to need a brief outline of what you think they did because I'm uncertain you know yourself or you simply don't care. First you have to make an argument yourself, which you haven't been and continue not to so. Shouting "Russian meddling" is not a winning strategy here.
Kirblah isn't conservative, from my interactions with him he's centre-left, either a liberal or centrist. Nor are you giving the briefest out of outlines why you think he's doing that instead I'm supposed to take it on faith that you're right with no evidence. Same with Stinkles. How is he fine with it? Frankly, I'd be surprised why anyone would be ok with what Russia did with their country, as if it's common behaviour for people not to protective of their own country behind severely compromised by a hostile nation state. You certainly think it is, but haven't put any effort to provide evidence this is true.
For all your complaining about the US terrible history, which everyone agrees needs reforming, I don't see much that energy being used to rebuke Madura's regime - the topic of this thread. So tell me this, what's your opinion on Madura's policies and its affects on Venezuela and does it match the intensity of your hatred to the US?
For those of us who actually care who Juan Guiado is here's what I found:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46985389
I've found it difficult to find any concrete evidence of his policies, but that is far from proof that he's a right wing fascist. It's easy to dig up his history and why he went into politics , however. The evidence we do know shows the complete opposite, in fact. For someone that evil you'd think it'd be simple to find damning evidence that he is not to be trusted since Trump endorsed him, and yet all we get is a diplomatic tweet.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46985389
He studied industrial engineering at university, before completing graduate degrees at George Washington University in the US capital and Venezuelan private business school Instituto de Estudios Superiores de Administración.
As a student, Mr Guaidó protested against what he saw as Mr Chavez's efforts to control the media when he did not renew the license of independent broadcaster Radio Caracas Television.
Mr Guaidó was a founding member of centrist political party Popular Will in 2009, along with key opposition leader Leopoldo López.
Mr López, now under house arrest, reportedly acted as a mentor to him.
The pair speak several times a day, according to Bloomberg, despite Mr López's detention.
As a student, Mr Guaidó protested against what he saw as Mr Chavez's efforts to control the media when he did not renew the license of independent broadcaster Radio Caracas Television.
Mr Guaidó was a founding member of centrist political party Popular Will in 2009, along with key opposition leader Leopoldo López.
Mr López, now under house arrest, reportedly acted as a mentor to him.
The pair speak several times a day, according to Bloomberg, despite Mr López's detention.
I've found it difficult to find any concrete evidence of his policies, but that is far from proof that he's a right wing fascist. It's easy to dig up his history and why he went into politics , however. The evidence we do know shows the complete opposite, in fact. For someone that evil you'd think it'd be simple to find damning evidence that he is not to be trusted since Trump endorsed him, and yet all we get is a diplomatic tweet.
I don't think he has actually done anything so far, so I'm not sure there's anything to criticize yet.
Saying "Congrats I hope we can work" to an elected president is diplomacy and okay. Saying "we know of his commitment to and democracy, human rights..." when the guy you're talking about celebrates torturing people, advocates for violence against LGBT, and outright calls to exterminate the left is not just "diplomacy". So much for "center left"
Diplomacy is about not angering people. What diplomats do you know who'd say that to the media?
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How about saying "Congrats, I hope we can work" without just lying about the guy supposedly advocating for Human Rights when he's not?
It's incredible that are people siding with Maduro on this one.
There's no humane reason that can justify supporting a leader that leads to starvation of it's people, while the leader himself and his allies are in healthy and wealthy position. If he has the bare minimum of decency that you would expect of a human being, he would've resign way earlier, when the situation wasn't so chaotic.
And the narrative that the US sanctions are the cause of the humanitarian crisis and Venezuelan Dictatorship is ludicrous to say the least. They caved their own hole and don't even let their population find a democratic way out of it, considering that, when Maduro lost the legislative to the opposition, he found a way to dissolve it.
So yep, Bolsonaro and Trump sucks, but the current regime in Venezuela is indefensible by any logical reasons, and the attempt of Guaido is a valid one to give some slight glimpse of hope that it might change in the near future.
There's no humane reason that can justify supporting a leader that leads to starvation of it's people, while the leader himself and his allies are in healthy and wealthy position. If he has the bare minimum of decency that you would expect of a human being, he would've resign way earlier, when the situation wasn't so chaotic.
And the narrative that the US sanctions are the cause of the humanitarian crisis and Venezuelan Dictatorship is ludicrous to say the least. They caved their own hole and don't even let their population find a democratic way out of it, considering that, when Maduro lost the legislative to the opposition, he found a way to dissolve it.
So yep, Bolsonaro and Trump sucks, but the current regime in Venezuela is indefensible by any logical reasons, and the attempt of Guaido is a valid one to give some slight glimpse of hope that it might change in the near future.
You have zero idea of what you're talking about. Stop whitewashing a literal fascist in Bolsanaro and the shit he has done and continue to do.
What? I don't have tons of time to spend on arguing with people who cannot see why this move backed by fucking Trump and Bolsanaro is such a disastrous one. I even posted the open letter above to illustrate the many pitfalls of why this is fucking bad.
lol fuck Trudeau. The fact that people are using him as an excuse to whitewash this imperalist move tells you all you need to know about his willingness to collaborate with fascists. As many progressive voices have shown, Trudeau is neoliberal through and through - even going as far as congratulating Bolsanaro for his win. Meanwhile, Canadian mining companies are eager to have further ventures in South America that exploit the local populations for their resources, something that I'm sure Trudeau would happily welcome.
If you want an idea about Canada's role in imperialism, listen to this podcast episode by Citations Needed: https://soundcloud.com/citationsnee...shing-whats-behind-canadas-progressive-veneer
"For decades, Canada has been a go-to point of reference for American progressives as a country the United States can and should strive to be. And while there are many parts about Canadian society that are measurably preferable, leftists in Canada find their country's glossy, socialist paradise image to be overblown and often a barrier to meaningful change.
This episode examines this tension, the reality versus perception, what we can learn from each other, and the common and existential thread we share of white settler-colonialism."
I'm not following you here at all. If you want to know what the "Russians did", there's tons of threads to go through on this site that illustrate the hysteria by liberals when it comes to election meddling. Suddenly all of them are quite absent when their own country does the same thing - if not explicitly backing this imperialist move by the US.
For a "centre-left", he sure has a lot of conservative/Republican talking points. If it walks a duck, talks like a duck...and the search button above can just be used if you are so inclined to find Stinkles' approval of US (soft) imperialism. Otherwise, feel free to go through the thread or just notice all the hostility towards those of us who are critical about US imperialism (which somehow many people are not!)
If everyone agrees it needs reforming now, how about doing that right fucking now when US imperialism is staring right in your face? The topic of this thread isn't just Madura's regime, but the coup d'etat that the US is instigating and provoking with the new fascist internationale of Trump and Bolsanaro. Here, right now, is the opportunity for the US and liberals and conservatives to say no to US imperialism, yet all we have is a whole lot of people who think it's their business to decide who should be the leader of another country and not the people in that country themselves.
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I don't think there are that many people here who support Maduro. At most, they hold the legitimacy of his recent re-election (while seemingly having blind spots on the circumstances surrounding it).
Some people here are weary of any US intervention especially since historically, it has always been flaming basura on the the region.
Just because one dislikes US Imperialism doesn't mean one is a diehard Maduro stan.
But yeah, there a few people here and across twitter ignoring viewpoints from actual Venezuelans.
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Well recently, he tweeted "Great Day" after the announcement of the departure of an openly gay congressman.
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I mean, an american center position is bound to have tons of conservative views.
I was actually referring to a Twitter post a saw here, forgot to say it, my bad.
About the legitimacy of Maduro re-election, he has none. As far as I know, his election happened after a new Venezuelan Constitution, which was made only by his supporters and as a fraudulent way to legitimate his power. When the Venezuelan Attorney General questioned and opposed the elaboration of this new Constitution, Maduro simply found a way to fire and exile her.
So Maduro holds zero legitimacy, and his claim as President is 100% invalid in my view. Venezuela needs a new, free election.
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