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Can anyone explain what's happening in Venezuela? Dictator Maduro hated by majority but, Trump Admin / VP Pence and Bolsonaro backing opposition?
- Thread starter Iloelemen
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Well that's awful, and not surprising from that guy. I'm sure soon enough he'll do something that cause the ire of his peers.
I'm not looking to excuse or defend Bolsonaro, but just saying so far as president he doesn't seem to have taken actions that would be condemned by another head of state. Which nobody has. Which is what Iloelemen asked.
2 to 5 minutes is tonnes of time? This'd be less of a problem if you could back up your arguments with the slightest depth, and you have done research for this thread to bolster your arguments before.
You posted a letter condemning a coup, not an article showing proof a coup is occurring. That's flimsy evidence for your argument. Now I'm thinking about it I don't recall you condemning Maduro at all during this thread, and you wonder why people don't find you credible. Funny how atrocities by dictators on the left are perfectly ok, but any time the US does it it's bad. Yet while we condemn the actions the US does, you refuse to with Maduro.
You'll get no argument from me about Canada's bad history. However, what about everything else Canada does and is? For a progressive you don't seem to like acknowledging the good progressive policies Trudeau or Canada has made as a country, sounds more like a conservative framing to me. Making everything black and white is easier to shape how others view situations to better shift them to attack political enemies. Curiouser and curiouser, huh, comrade.
I know what Russians did, I'm asking if you do. Since this is another deflection, and a disturbing undermining of the severity of what Russia did I'm going to assume you're fine with it. For someone who insists they're against imperialism and meddling this stance is mighty hypocritical, given what Madura and Putin have done to their own countries. Or is it only bad when the West does it? Repeating "imperialist" is not evidence, but repeating words is a technique conservatives exploit to hammer into followers to go in a specific direction. Trump does this regularly with his rallies, and so do Libertarians like Ayn Rand with her books like Atlas Shrugged.
This is a snipe hunt. Even if I wanted to what you're feeding me is vague insinuations, not a convincing argument that they are what you say are. They both have more credibility in this discussion than you do by operating in good faith. This is your argument, link me to the posts and I'll analyse them. But we both know you won't.
You're deliberately ignoring how big a task that is and how many people have done that which have died in the process for to get justice. Where is the call for this justice with Maduro and his government? Who are committing the same vile acts on their people. Police brutality, poverty and starvation are a tool for many regimes, including Venezuela's.
But it is about Madura's regime, which you don't seem that interested in discussing. There has been no evidence of a coup, and if there were nobody in this thread would support it which has been made extremely clear. Lots of apologia for Maduro, however. We have been, you've ignored us for a false narrative to undermine those who disagree with you. The people of Venezuela have spoken and their legit ruler is not Maduro, so why don't you accept their sovereignty? Your argument is that they should fix this on their own, right?
"Repeatedly spamming the same post throughout the thread"
Well, he kept posting the same thing over and over.
Seems like it was more of a spam ban than content one.
The majority of Venezuela absolutely does not see Maduro as president. As for the rest of the world, as far as I know most countries are simply not taking explicit sides; in terms of numbers more have officially recognize Guaidó than Maduro.
Hopefully because stanning for murderous tyrants has become a bannable offense here.
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as messy as Vela's posts were getting, I don't think there was any Maduro stanning.
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I think this needs to be emphasized.
Sadly, there's a bunch of lefties who get their Venezuela news from Telesur and as a result, think that Maduro's re-election was 100% fair, that people-led opposition protests don't exist and that the protests that do exist and are happening are actually from pro-Maduro people.
It's very disorienting.
I believe that the real problem is that a majority of people talking about this don't give a shit about Venezuelan people and are only invested in it as a proxy battle for the reputation of socialism.
Oh no poor Vela. In the meantime, let's discuss how Trudeau supports a white supremacist https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/trudeau-congratulates-trump/
I'll say it one more time for the people in the back:
USA. Has. Done. Nothing.
You guys sound like you believe everything Maduro says. That's similar to believing in Fox News. So stop it.
I do have to ask, with the American government shutdown, can they even do that?
I'll say it one more time for the people in the back:
USA. Has. Done. Nothing.
You guys sound like you believe everything Maduro says. That's similar to believing in Fox News. So stop it.
I do have to ask, with the American government shutdown, can they even do that?
This. I live in Peru and seen thounsands of venezulan working on the streets, asking for help, they give away their currency like souvenir (cause basically is worthless) if you help them or buy something from them. I nerver seen a situation like this in my country.
Maduro is dictator he is basically a clear example of late stage socialism. This guy disolved the congress to instate one with only allies, put on jail their oponents, took away people properties and business.
Sometimes I can't belive some people of this forum trying to defend Maduro or his regime just cause he seem socialist or left.
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That's not necessarily true
Trump Administration Discussed Coup Plans With Rebel Venezuelan Officers
and as an addition
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.67cb60be6418
This sounds about right. Couple people shadow stanning for Maduro/Chavez by spewing anti American conspiracy coup theories. SMH.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/americas/donald-trump-venezuela-military-coup.html What fucking theories, people eagerly await for USA to go over Venezuela and fuck them completely over with their freedom huh
This is pretty much what I think about all of this, felt like this for years.
Pretty much. It's how they sweep aside what Maduro has done and the clusterfuck in Venezuela for the last decade that was highly infuriating.
The article even details how nothing ever happened... Venezuelas problems are Maduros alone.
While America has done coups before, particularly in Latin America, right now there is no evidence a coup is occurring as we speak. If it was I'd denounce it, regardless.
edit: The article is about discussing plans for a coup, and while I agree it is chilling that is not the same as the action committing that to reality. When it becomes real then you'll have the evidence to be angry at the US for doing something against Venezuela.
yeah, they also funded an assassination attempt on Chavez.
Are these first world leftist / communist wannabe that call this a coup aware of what Maduro did to secure his win last election? (illegally moving the date up, barring parties and people from running in the election at will among other things)
That is absolutely the case with a few of these posters.
My concern is not that they don't know it's that they simply are apathetic about what's happening to the Venezuelan people to score points against capitalism. Defending Maduro to hurt the libs, as it were.
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I fail to see how my post advocates for an intervention
I feel like I am taking crazy pills here, if like despite posts from real Venezuelans, despite all the facts against Maduro's catastrophic regime, they just parrot the same words over over over: bu bu bu but capitalism!, illegal coup!, Bolsonaro! Trump, Canada! it's like they want to score a moral victory regardles of the real victims here the Venezuelan people.
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Were some actually defending Maduro?
The man's heinous as all hell. I'm just contentious with USA because...well, history with this sort of thing has been utter shit.
I hear "regime change" and think you're going to fuck this up like many times before.
The man's heinous as all hell. I'm just contentious with USA because...well, history with this sort of thing has been utter shit.
I hear "regime change" and think you're going to fuck this up like many times before.
As venezuelan, im disgusted not only you dare to tell us how our country is or whats happening there. But mocking of our disgrace and suffering when not a single day have gone you without a meal, let alone eating once per day if you are lucky.
You have no fucking idea what despair and hopelessness feels like.
You have no fucking idea what despair and hopelessness feels like.
Yes.
Claiming the past set of elections were legitimate/free is to be backing Maduro without explicitly saying so.
Claiming Guiado is "right wing" (he's not) is an effort to demonize him and implicitly support Maduro because they're portraying him as the "left" option without explicitly saying the latter part.
Claiming the US is to blame for Venezuela's economic collapse is to be backing Maduro when his admin is constantly blaming the US with conspiracy theories and sanctions are very, very recent relative to the complete collapse of the economy and hyperinflation which occured far before that (and is what triggered the sanctions, along with the end of democratic elections.)
Maduro is to socialism as Kim-Jong Un is to socialism (as in, not at all actually interested in it, they're really just a horrible dictator) but the Chavez/Maduro propaganda campaign that's been going on the past two decades through various channels has an faction online chomping at the bit to defend this crap in the name of "TRUE SOCIALISM" with them portraying it as a continuation of the cold war.
The Last Week Tonight video on Venezuela is a pretty good overview, as is the comic posted earlier in the thread.
As just seen on reddit:
"The PSUV taking ownership of oil refineries and passing profits down to the workers is socialist."
'So oil barons and trickle down economics are socialism now?'
murderedbywords.txt
"The PSUV taking ownership of oil refineries and passing profits down to the workers is socialist."
'So oil barons and trickle down economics are socialism now?'
murderedbywords.txt
Maduro and his his government is inept, corrupt, and failing his citizens. The sooner it's done the better. Regardless of our views, however, this criticism is not coming from a good place with the US republicans, they are only concerned about their ideological war, they couldn't give two shits about the people there. This is the same party that basically left their own people in Puerto Rico to die, they let ill Americans perish every day and they sure as shit don't care about the democratic process given how they've gerrymandered and suppressed their way into power on so many occasions. These are hollow, weasel words. They will look for a solution in Venezuela that benefits them, whether that be domestically or in terms of sway within Venezuela, the humanitarian outcome is entirely irrelevant, as we've seen they have no issues with despots and mass murderers, so long as they are ideologically aligned.
People should absolutely be cynical and worried when he singles out a particular leader like that. People should be similarly worried about what kind of damage he can do with this kind of rhetoric, because words mean different things depending on who they come from and the power they wield. When the president of the US talks it doesn't just carry significant clout, but also historical baggage which in turn carries with it an implicit threat. If this plays into Maduro's paranoia about the US wanting to overthrow him (not an unreasonable fear I might add) then this could cause more violence and a doubling down on suppressing opposition. Issues like these are more nuanced, Maduro can be illegitimate and it's entirely possible Trump can be right in his assessment, yet isn't actually right in saying it. Furthermore, talk of "legitimacy" and similar language is the kind we've heard as a precursor to devastating, destructive intervention so many times in the past. People have a right to be fucking wary at this point.
People should absolutely be cynical and worried when he singles out a particular leader like that. People should be similarly worried about what kind of damage he can do with this kind of rhetoric, because words mean different things depending on who they come from and the power they wield. When the president of the US talks it doesn't just carry significant clout, but also historical baggage which in turn carries with it an implicit threat. If this plays into Maduro's paranoia about the US wanting to overthrow him (not an unreasonable fear I might add) then this could cause more violence and a doubling down on suppressing opposition. Issues like these are more nuanced, Maduro can be illegitimate and it's entirely possible Trump can be right in his assessment, yet isn't actually right in saying it. Furthermore, talk of "legitimacy" and similar language is the kind we've heard as a precursor to devastating, destructive intervention so many times in the past. People have a right to be fucking wary at this point.
Issue is that instead of proper socialism, where they give control to the workers and people with knowledge, they gave it to people whose main knowledge was being friends with the president and had no regulations. So they turned corrupt.
Edit: as tends to happen in this kind of states.
Spanish Foreign Minister just said that the EU is debating the recognition of Guiado if Maduro doesn't call an election after a certain date.
BTW Vela was the one who brought up Russia (which he also infers isn't a thing that even really happened) by trawling other threads for "evidence" of poster's hypocrisy and we still didnt have him cite a single example from anyone in this thread saying "I hope America interferes" and he still hasn't properly addressed the fact that Maduro killed people and committed massive election fraud.
It's more important to whatabout and shit on America than engage with the actual topic of the thread.
I'm sure all of us are worried about US actually intervening with Venezuela, and more with the chance that Guaido might actually make things worse.
There's always those chances.
Thing is, both of these are assumptions at best. The very real thing that is happening is that Maduro is making Venezuelans suffer and most of them want a change in government. This is what most of us are supporting them for, to get our of a shithole of a situation.
There's always those chances.
Thing is, both of these are assumptions at best. The very real thing that is happening is that Maduro is making Venezuelans suffer and most of them want a change in government. This is what most of us are supporting them for, to get our of a shithole of a situation.
Thank you. The rhetoric that anyone even remotely skeptical of Trump and Pence on this must be some tankie that "stans" for dictators and tyrants is toxic.
If this were the case the thread wouldn't be 22 pages long, trust me.
There were people who were handwaving away how Maduro is failing its citizens while talking about a coup that isn't, or hasn't happened. All this while putting up incredulously dubious links or explanations that were countered with facts of what actually happened.
I know most of them aren't stans for dictators, they aren't stupid. What annoyed me was that they chose to ignore what is happening, what Venezuelans had to say about the situation, and instead talk about American imperialism when that's not even a fraction of what went wrong in Venezuela.
it's like you haven't read the thread and hand waved everything
That's not what's going on. Posts like the one you quoted, Bernie's take, they are getting posted and no one really has a problem with them.
There are others denying that Maduro is a dictator, that paint the opposition leader as far right, that blame Venezuela's current issues entirely on conspiracy theories about the US. Those are the ones that are getting hard pushback and also the ones who are very very insistent on pushing their POV to try and drown out actual reality.
I think it would be best for everyone here if you didn't return to any Venezuela threads. You've already shown what kind of person you are.
Yup.
I have no issue whatsoever with anyone feeling the US, considering their history, should stay out of it. But posts that stan for Maduro, calling him legitimate, talking about western paternalism while they ignore Venezuelan voices, excusing everything by saying the people of Venezuela prefer to be "materially poorer" but at least not a "puppet state"... That garbage is not acceptable.
You can have an opinion of not supporting a coup for all intents and purposes and not support Maduro at the same time. Somehow posters aren't getting this.
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