Wait, hasn't the contention always been that DMC was its own "stylish action" genre and set apart from hack and slash games?
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Can DMC5 salvage the hack 'n slash subgenre?
- Thread starter MBS
- Start date
With better tutorials and a practice mode for new players to experiment, the skill floor can be reached.
I feel that lowering the skill floor would intrinsically damage the mechanics to make them accessible to the major gaming audience. A fully transparent tutorial ala Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 would allow those who truly want to be stylish to learn in a traditional manner.
It's "Character Action".
I feel that lowering the skill floor would intrinsically damage the mechanics to make them accessible to the major gaming audience. A fully transparent tutorial ala Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 would allow those who truly want to be stylish to learn in a traditional manner.
It's "Character Action".
That's why people call DMC, Bayonetta, and other games like them "character action", yeah.
How is that a bad thing? Remind you that I am talking about skill floor not skill ceiling which are two different things.
The skill floor needs to be as low as humanly possible. Game needs to be accessible. Like you want to turn on the game and you want to start having fun and doing crazy stuff as soon as possible.
Tutorials don't do anything. GGXrd's robust training mode doesn't lower the skill floor at all, it just bombards you with information that is hard to retain after 20 minutes of play.
This is how games like Starcraft have been popular for so long. Easy to get into but hard to master.
One of the features DmC brought that, IMO, helped a lot with lowering the skill floor was the lack of a lock-on button. Regardless of how vocal people were about missing it, even when I played the Definitive Edition I still kept it off because the game doesn't really need lock-on and it felt great having both access to Dante's moves without doing many directional inputs (you only ever need such inputs for Stinger, IIRC) and being able to switch from enemy to enemy in a more natural way instead of having to switch targets with yet another button. Also, the lack of lock-on allowed NT to implement the teleport-up and teleport-down buttons for Vergil, which I felt had great many uses.
Maybe a good training mode and tutorial mode would help more people reach the skill floor, but the problem is that this is already work. It's comparable to fighting games, but a AAA single player action title needs more sales than a fighting game to be viable. People need to turn hit new game and start to have fun. Be it thorugh a more accessible combat system or just a better realized story setup that gets them excited for the next cutscene even if they kind of suck at the game. Much like DMC3.
Challenge is also an important part of that, in my opinion. Overcoming challenges is its own reward, and just beating a tough boss will feel great, even if the player was just mashing the standard combo without styling too much. If everything is a tad easy, you either get your enjoyment from playing at a higher level or you don't get any enjoyment. They shouldn't shy away from making the normal mode a bit hard.
Challenge is also an important part of that, in my opinion. Overcoming challenges is its own reward, and just beating a tough boss will feel great, even if the player was just mashing the standard combo without styling too much. If everything is a tad easy, you either get your enjoyment from playing at a higher level or you don't get any enjoyment. They shouldn't shy away from making the normal mode a bit hard.
This is why DMC5 ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE a practice/training mode.
Teach the advanced mechanics with tutorials. Let me practice on enemies with unlimited health - this stuff cannot be restricted to PC mods.
While all of that is true, I feel that for a DMC5 Capcom is likely to bring back lock on mostly because it allows for the maximum number of moves with the fewest amount of buttons required. Otherwise you will have stuff like forward, forward inputs for Stinger which is clunky.
I do however think that dodge with the lock on might be going the way of the Dodo bird. That has no place in games like these. I also think that the lock on will be more like Dark Souls game where it's toggleable and your movement is no longer restricted in it.
Training modes and stuff are nice but this is a single player game and you want people to learn most of the mechanics through just playing the campaign and beating the game on harder modes. Having a dedicated training/tutorial mode to teach people the mechanics in a game like this is an admission of defeat that you can't weave the mechanics well enough into the campaign. This really hasn't been an issue for the series since DMC4 IMO.. DMC1 and DMC3 you are aware of most of the mechanics in the game but DMC4 doesn't even teach you how to do an Instant Rev!
"Salvage?"
I'm guessing you didn't play Metal Gear Rising.
Or Transformers Devastation.
Or any games that have "Warriors" at the end of their title.
Or Ninja Gaiden.
Or God of War.
Or the Bayonetta games.
Or Nier Automata.
I'm guessing you didn't play Metal Gear Rising.
Or Transformers Devastation.
Or any games that have "Warriors" at the end of their title.
Or Ninja Gaiden.
Or God of War.
Or the Bayonetta games.
Or Nier Automata.
Aside from Nier Automata which is really more like an action RPG... most of those games haven't been out for a few years now. When was the last time we had a good Ninja Gaiden for crying out loud.
spectacle action games were never dead. It was always the same people doing them. You see them less frequently because they are now making other games. Would I like an uptick? Sure but I trust none of these other developers.
We just got Fire Emblem Warriors a few weeks ago to great reviews and reception. :|
God of War is coming out early next year, and DMC4SE and Devastation both came out in late 2015.
Training mode is a must, yeah, alongside being able to try skills before you buy them and other QoL stuff that most character action games introduced after DMC4.
Ehh, not too sure on that one. Regardless of how DMC4's controls can be mastered, they are still clunky.
Ehh, not too sure on that one. Regardless of how DMC4's controls can be mastered, they are still clunky.
Do we know what their financial status is right now?
Monster Hunter World certainly seems to have a pretty good budget behind it. Although I am reminded about the company's fear of a buyout not too long ago.
No because DMC4 still hasn't shed its RE/early PS2 era days. Time to change up the jump controls, camera and dodge/lock on stuff. And honestly this stuff should've been changed by DMC3 time.
There is still odd movement restrictions during lock on and no option to toggle it. Souls games are far more methodical than DMC games and even they don't restrict you during lock on!
That's what bloody palace is for this isn't a fighting game. They just need to get rid of that timer in bloody palace.
Hell no, wtf. Keep the timer. I'll accept a no-timer version with no scoring system, but keep the timer.
What the hell do you mean change the jump controls? They can definitely go ahead and improve the camera. The dodge/lock on definitely could just be a toggle, tap R1 to have it and then tap it again to turn it off. I don't know how that would affect his the movesets though.
I mean the stiff as hell vertical jump that the characters do which makes any type of platforming terrible in the older games. DmC fixed this.
Lock on toggle would have 0 impact on the moveset because DmC DE has it as well.
Dodging shouldn't be on lock on to begin with. Makes 0 sense and forces the developers to make punchbag enemies.
If Itsuno can lower the skill floor while retaining the depth of the systems and maintaing the skill ceiling, I'm all for that.
Right now you have one button for melee weapons, one for guns, a style specific button and jump. That's simple. It's how you use them that creates the complexity, so when I see talk of "lowering the skill floor" I don't see how this can be done without damaging what's there. If we go down the Platinum route of having a light and heavy attack we have ruined what Devil May Cry is.
Tutorials will help explain the systems without altering them to excess. However maybe there is an alternative I can't see but at present lowering the skill floor is something that I don't see can be done by changing what's currently there.
I just want a good campaign with minimal backtracking and basically no puzzles. I'll still argue just campaign structure wise. DmC was better than 4 in keeping my interest.
Ah, I see what you mean with the jumping, yeah that gotta fix that.
I didn't like the control scheme of DmC at all with holding buttons down to change styles, that shit was boof.
I don't know how to map the controls for dodging with the style system.
I'm legit not sure what needs salvaging right now? It's not a genre that's flooding store shelves, but we get good games?
As someone who's played 3 and 4 on DMD with S ranks and beaten Bloody Palace a training mode with a dummy enemy would be greatly appreciated. Having to mod bloody palace to practice is a chore. It takes nothing away from the main game so I'd welcome it's inclusion.
We are having a debate if you read the other posts about my first point. The second one though, I stand by that. No need for a training mode, you can try things in bloody palace mode or during the campaign.
So you can do that still while others use the training room. Win win for everyone.
You do realize that this is Capcom right and shit never goes the way you want, if you get one thing it means you won't get something else. A training mode is the least of my worries.
I have already proposed numerous ways to lower skill floor of Dante without compromising skill ceiling. Since people keep asking for it I am going to put my proposal:
/\: Melee attack
[]: Gun attack
O: Trickster Dodge
X: Jump
R1: Lock On (toggleable)
L1: Style Modifier (toggleable)
L2/R2: Weapon swaps
D-Pad Devil Abilities
Up: Devil Trigger
Left: Quicksilver
Right: Doppelganger
Down: Whatever new mechanic they want or you can put Darkslayer stuff here
Style modifier changes the face buttons like DmC's stance modifiers do (only here it's only one and it's toggleable)
L1+/\ = Swordmaster attacks
L1+[] = Gunslinger attacks
L1+O=Royal Guard
L1+X= New mechanic
With this you no longer have to move your thumb from left stick to D-pad to change styles, Style change is now universal and you can just tap L1 to go between style and non style mode. Want to do Flying Guard stuff? O L1 O. Want to do Trickster dashes into guard cancels? O L1 O.
This greatly lowers the skill floor but actually increases the skill ceiling because now you have more options. L1+X could be a new style altogether if they wanted to (or they can put teleports here). You can use Doppelganger/Quicksilver plus a new Devil mechanic combined with the other style moves. Since you don't have to press Devil Trigger mechanics in rapid succession, they make sense being on D-pad.
/\: Melee attack
[]: Gun attack
O: Trickster Dodge
X: Jump
R1: Lock On (toggleable)
L1: Style Modifier (toggleable)
L2/R2: Weapon swaps
D-Pad Devil Abilities
Up: Devil Trigger
Left: Quicksilver
Right: Doppelganger
Down: Whatever new mechanic they want or you can put Darkslayer stuff here
Style modifier changes the face buttons like DmC's stance modifiers do (only here it's only one and it's toggleable)
L1+/\ = Swordmaster attacks
L1+[] = Gunslinger attacks
L1+O=Royal Guard
L1+X= New mechanic
With this you no longer have to move your thumb from left stick to D-pad to change styles, Style change is now universal and you can just tap L1 to go between style and non style mode. Want to do Flying Guard stuff? O L1 O. Want to do Trickster dashes into guard cancels? O L1 O.
This greatly lowers the skill floor but actually increases the skill ceiling because now you have more options. L1+X could be a new style altogether if they wanted to (or they can put teleports here). You can use Doppelganger/Quicksilver plus a new Devil mechanic combined with the other style moves. Since you don't have to press Devil Trigger mechanics in rapid succession, they make sense being on D-pad.
Ninja Gaiden 2 for the 360, which is still underbaked and a little sloppy.
and here's a preemptive "Razor's Edge was not okay, it was lipstick on the decaying carcass of a pig"
I don't put Nier Automata in this discussion. It's a very slimmed down version of Bayonetta combat...even more slimmed down than all their other slimmed down Bayonetta action engine games.
In the grand scheme of things a training mode isn't the top of my list. It's something I'd like to see added. At this point with my cynical outlook I'm worried they'll turn DMC into something awful to cater to a larger audience and forget what made it great to begin with.
Dead Rising 4 already saved the genre last year and Capcom Heroes is doing it this year.
Kidding, but at the risk of stating the obvious, it will bomb if they don't give the level design and controls an overhaul. You don't save a genre by producing a like-experience to that which helped stagnate the genre. DMC4 sold well in 2k8, I guess, but it was 2k8. We've had Bayo, Transformers, etc. since then. None really had the IP pull DMC has, but it looks to me like waning interest regardless.
At the risk of getting tedious, I feel like we all know what people mean by hack 'n' slash in the context of DMC, but "hack 'n' slash" is like an umbrella sub-genre which includes the sub-sub-genre you're really getting at: "character action," or "stylish action," or "hardcore action," or "hardcore stylish action." However, "hack 'n' slash" also includes some styles of ARPG, coin-op beat 'em ups, and domineering gameplay styles that are derivative of those.
Kidding, but at the risk of stating the obvious, it will bomb if they don't give the level design and controls an overhaul. You don't save a genre by producing a like-experience to that which helped stagnate the genre. DMC4 sold well in 2k8, I guess, but it was 2k8. We've had Bayo, Transformers, etc. since then. None really had the IP pull DMC has, but it looks to me like waning interest regardless.
At the risk of getting tedious, I feel like we all know what people mean by hack 'n' slash in the context of DMC, but "hack 'n' slash" is like an umbrella sub-genre which includes the sub-sub-genre you're really getting at: "character action," or "stylish action," or "hardcore action," or "hardcore stylish action." However, "hack 'n' slash" also includes some styles of ARPG, coin-op beat 'em ups, and domineering gameplay styles that are derivative of those.
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That's really good. Just not sure about the Devil Trigger placement, but it's a very small price to pay.
Missions in 3RE were better than main campaign, sure.
Well you can have it on L3+R3 like every other action game if you want... LMAO!
Yeah, I'm not sure about that. Also what about the devil trigger charge DMC3? I'm not sure if it was in DMC4.
I actually really like this setup. It promotes creativity in gameplay rather than promoting difficulty in execution. Provides the depth while making it more convenient for newer players