Can we not call objectification and sexualization “fan service”?

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
5,975
I don't think you can stop calling it that, if you Google the word fan service almost all the results are creepy anime shit.

Instead we gotta stop rewarding or putting up with the self-righteous attitude of people who admit they like it. They are trying to pretend there's some nobility in it to handwave away the extreme problematic nature of a lot of the content, but in truth they're just admitting they enjoy the story being sabotaged and made worse at the expense of everyone in the wider potential market just solely so they can get off to their denigrating (and more often than not; creepy pedo-ish) shite.
 

Mulciber

Member
Aug 22, 2018
3,530
Huh, before this thread, I had only thought of "fanservice" as a negative term. I basically viewed it the same way you would view the term "objectification."

Also, the term exclusively meaning panty shots, sexual stuff, etc. was what I thought it always meant. That's the definition at TVTropes, for example:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanservice
The use of sex or sexualized situations to reward or entice viewers. While the specific term "fanservice" arose from the anime community, the concept is far, far older. Most fanservice is seldom explicit or graphic—that is the territory of pornography. Instead, it uses sexuality or hints at sex often in a funny or comedic way to tease and titillate the audience. This is traditionally associated with female characters, but fanservice of male characters isn't uncommon either.
 

ActWan

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,699
Israel
It's creepy as hell that it's the most common meaning of the phrase - whenever I write fan service I mean stuff like callback to previous games in the series that fans would understand and love/scenarios required by fans like epic fights or major characters finally meeting each other/etc (not characters getting naked).
 

HotHamBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,544
Huh, before this thread, I had only thought of "fanservice" as a negative term. I basically viewed it the same way you would view the term "objectification."

Also, the term exclusively meaning panty shots, sexual stuff, etc. was what I thought it always meant. That's the definition at TVTropes, for example:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanservice
At the end they have the other definition but they appatently call it "Pandering To The Base" and have another entry for it.

That's.... dumb.

According to the Oxford dictionary, the verb "game" means "to play video or computer games." :)
But not board games or sports games?

What if I play a lot of Settler of Catan? Does it have to be the Switch version?
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
5,975
The worst thing about fan service though is that a lot of posters in this thread are convinced that it's a sex positive thing or something. As if Western games and the west are purtianical cus they don't expose teenage girls panties or something.

Which is an amazing turnabout considering the amount of actual sex and actual nudity characters have in Western games opposed to most Eastern games.
 

Muskieratboi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
Fanservice should be when a beloved side character gets their own filler arc, or when there's a cool crossover episode, not "Here's your third favourite waifu in nothing but a wet t-shirt and panties!"
 

RPG_Fanatic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,193
To be fair, I do believe the term fanservice originated from anime and manga. It was around before this, but I think Misato's voiceovers in Evangelion really spread the term to a wider audience of American nerds (myself included). Easter eggs to me are just easter eggs.
This is what I was thinking going through this thread. Back in the day, fanservice for games made me think of fun little nods in the game to previous entries in the series or other games made by the same developer/publisher. When I first heard the term fanservice in relation to anime/mange, it was referring to lewd scenes. Now that definition seems to spread to games as well.
 

HotHamBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,544
The worst thing about fan service though is that a lot of posters in this thread are convinced that it's a sex positive thing or something. As if Western games and the west are purtianical cus they don't expose teenage girls panties or something.

Which is an amazing turnabout considering the amount of actual sex and actual nudity characters have in Western games opposed to most Eastern games.
Yeah, i mean, it's all about framing.

A nude in an art gallery vs a nude in a truck stop.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
Yeah, that's actually a rarer usage of the word of "Fanservice" that I almost never see. Shame, because it could have a good intended meaning, but like I mentioned above, unfortunately certain aspects unfortunately popularized the term.
Evangelion using it to refer to cheesecake shots of Misato in the "next episode" previews popularized its use as a euphemism for "gratuitous sexualization." While I do like Eva, the show's popularity and influence has been almost universally negative.
 

Kaz Mk II

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,356
Eh, I dont really see why we would have to Change it. Erotic fanservice exists for both sexes and it is something that can be added to please the fans. Like swimsuit episodes or every marvel guy having a shirtless scene.

Seems like another instance of pearl clutching over sex/eroticism in media. Like we can just call it erotic or sexual fanservice if you wanna differentiate it better.
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,785
Agreed. It's not sex positive to objectify women and it's no coincidence gaming (and other nerd circles) have such an issue with misogyny and also glorify in this stuff.
 

Tohsaka

Member
Nov 17, 2017
2,618
The worst thing about fan service though is that a lot of posters in this thread are convinced that it's a sex positive thing or something. As if Western games and the west are purtianical cus they don't expose teenage girls panties or something.

Which is an amazing turnabout considering the amount of actual sex and actual nudity characters have in Western games opposed to most Eastern games.
The reason you don't see actual sex and nudity in Japanese games is because their ratings board literally does not allow it, as I said in a previous post. CERO forbids nipples and genitals in console games, so Japanese games never have them and western games get censored for the localized release. If they could put nudity in their games, I'm sure they would. The Senran Kagura anime has nudity for example, but the games don't because they're not allowed to do it.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,933
afaik that term originated from anime and has always meant that type of thing? Retroactively changing the definition doesn't really make sense
 

Dogenzaka

Member
Apr 20, 2019
496
You're aware that sexualization/fan service isn't exclusively geared toward men, right?
These are official illustrations from Fire Emblem Fates and I don't think any women (or men, shout out to my fellow bi boys) are 'creeps' for enjoying them, nor are people creeps for enjoying when the men of Marvel movies get their abs out. Anyone remember that scene where Peggy Carter is flustered by Cap's new chiseled body and even briefly touches his chest? (I don't blame her)

Now I'm not trying to say all fan service is equal, I know that some video games and anime often take it way too far when sexualizing women. When you get those sexy costumes to put on your characters, but the women have nothing but negative reactions and are clearly uncomfortable? Or when you take a character like Quiet and reduce her to nothing but eye candy until the last mission of the game? Things like this can fuck off, there's no excuse for it, but I do think it can be done tastefully or at least as tasteful as you can be with something inherently gratuitous.
These two costumes are, in my opinion, pretty harmless fan service that I wouldn't begrudge anyone for liking.
 

MAX PAYMENT

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,473
Fan service is service for the fans. When did this get used as a sexualization term? It makes no sense that way.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
5,975
The reason you don't see actual sex and nudity in Japanese games is because their ratings board literally does not allow it, as I said in a previous post. CERO forbids nipples and genitals in console games, so Japanese games never have them and western games get censored for the localized release.
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying I want to see sex and nudity, but rather these games revel in panty shots and sexualised, degrading outfits and designs for their female characters yet refuse to acknowledge they have any sexuality or any sort of any sort of sexual independance at all as characters.

They wanna have their cake and eat it. They want women in situations they'd never dress sexual (usually combat as most games are set in combat with some form of warriors or soldiers as the characters) to be in costumes they can wank off to, but those women can't ever talk about sex or acknowledge sex or think about or discuss anything vaguley showing any sort of attraction in any form to another human being.
 

Polioliolio

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,904
Yeah man, fuck those ‘people’ who enjoy boobs and asses, what the heck is wrong with them?!
I agree with this. I'm typically put off my overly sexual anime babes, but who cares? As long as we're welcoming to games with other kinds of sexuality, isn't it okay? And as long as there's room for games with strong characters of various diversity, not every game needs full representation. If Dragon's Crown leans toward male appeal, it's not wrong. Let it be and let's invite games that want to appeal in other ways as well.
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,183
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing and Misrepresenting Concerns of Sexist Objectification
A lot of y’all got weird sexual hang ups and an out right refusal to admit how horny *absolutely everyone* is.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,686
Eh, I dont really see why we would have to Change it. Erotic fanservice exists for both sexes and it is something that can be added to please the fans. Like swimsuit episodes or every marvel guy having a shirtless scene.

Seems like another instance of pearl clutching over sex/eroticism in media. Like we can just call it erotic or sexual fanservice if you wanna differentiate it better.
Oh yeah, sexualization definitely exists in equal measure for both sexes. One gender isn't SUBSTANTIALLY more likely to be HEAVILY sexualized. Your argument was clearly made in good faith and I applaud you for it.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,589
Greater Vancouver
A lot of y’all got weird sexual hang ups and an out right refusal to admit how horny *absolutely everyone* is.
Yes, people are horny. What does this have to do with dismissing sexual objectification which simultaneously rarely ever in nerd culture actually lets characters (significantly slanted against women btw) have a sexual identity of their own, but insists they be paraded around in such a way that lets straight dudes skeevily leer at them.
 

Actinium

Member
Oct 27, 2017
619
California
Language evolves and fan service only ever means 1 thing now. If you are resistant to just coming out and calling it pandering sexualization than it probably means you are ashamed of it being exactly that. A billboard advertising fried chicken with a drumstick wedged in between some lady's tits is not 'fried chicken fan service', and neither is your favorite anime or video game girl stuffed into a plug suit or whatever.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,686
Yes, people are horny. What does this have to do with dismissing sexual objectification which simultaneously rarely ever in nerd culture actually lets characters (significantly slanted against women btw) have a sexual identity of their own, but insists they be paraded around in such a way that lets straight dudes skeevily leer at them.
Nah, man. Occasionally a male character will be in a swimsuit or something, so it is totally okay if all female characters are portrayed as sex dolls. Clearly sexism is dead.
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,183
Yes, people are horny. What does this have to do with dismissing sexual objectification which simultaneously rarely ever in nerd culture actually lets characters (significantly slanted against women btw) have a sexual identity of their own, but insists they be paraded around in such a way that lets straight dudes skeevily leer at them.
In perfect world everyone’s horniness would be accommodated, and we can only hope that society will reach that point.
Edit: In all seriousness, I believe that the people supporting fan service spend way to much money for it to ever go away, so why not just show that there is a fan service market that’s being under serviced?
 

Kaz Mk II

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,356
Oh yeah, sexualization definitely exists in equal measure for both sexes. One gender isn't SUBSTANTIALLY more likely to be HEAVILY sexualized. Your argument was clearly made in good faith and I applaud you for it.
Thanks, I'll be here all night.

But I wasn't saying that it did exist in equal measure (as if I dont have eyes). I was saying that 'fanservice' can be used to appeal to either or since OP specifically mentioned female characters. At least tell me I'm going "But wHaT aboUt MeN?", because I kinda am.

Either way people have been calling it fanservice within the anime/gaming community to refer to provocative/erotic additions to non erotic media for like 30 years. I just cant think of a reason to change it since it's used in the same way as inserting fanfavorite characters or creating otherwise forced scenarios that are seemingly motivated to please the fanbase.
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,359
Madrid
I'm all for renaming it "creepservice". I don't really like "cheesecake" as I don't want to associate the delicious dessert with the obnoxious practice (it also invites disingenuous "men are sexualized too" arguments just by the existence of "beefcake" as a term).

Fan service is service for the fans. When did this get used as a sexualization term? It makes no sense that way.
Approximately when dinosaurs roamed the Earth:
Although the concepts had been used previously, the term itself "fan service" (ファンサービス fan sābisu) most likely originated in the late 80s to describe such scenes in anime and manga.[21] The term is used in the 1991 film Otaku no Video.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,558
Also I'm not comfortable with loli fan service or that shit, but suggesting just cause I like anime means I approve of loli and lewd children is some bullshit.

Honestly this strain of putrianism where anime/loli/porn are just mushed together does not make sense from a progressive standpoint.

How does disapproving of regular fan service differ in opposing prostitution or sex work? Obviously we have issues to discuss in all realms but I'm asking those of you opposed to it in a general stance beyond pedo or immoral stuff like spying or harassment.
Um.

Well, for starters, we're talking about fictional women who are written largely by men who have zero agency of their own. Meaning when we're criticizing these designs, we're also by and large criticizing their creators. We can't be criticizing the characters in particular because the characters do not exist. They are not real. Someone applied effort to bringing them into being, and when the vast majority of their effort is put towards making female characters sexually appealing above all else it is extremely transparent and insulting.

They can do better. That's all any of this has ever been about. Do better.
Are you going to tell me that straight women aren’t being ignored when it comes to fan service in games? More games should cater to these under serviced markets
Okay.

What if my idea of being "serviced" is having women treated as equals and not blatant eye candy at the expense of any aspect of their characterization?

We're kind of working at cross purposes here, aren't we?
A lot of y’all got weird sexual hang ups and an out right refusal to admit how horny *absolutely everyone* is.
Also this is kind of bullshit. Asexual people exist. People with no sex drive exist. They may not be particularly common but you don't get to completely erase their existence to serve your own ends.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,545
I have no problem with attractive or sexy female characters but I highly dislike when the characters are put into a situation where they are clearly uncomfortable. It's doubly as bad when that character is underage.
It’s a bunch of polygons. Can polygons be uncomfortable?

I know what you mean but the comfortable scenario is honestly a weak excuse as far as I’m concerned. Bayonetta might seem more comfortable wearing a tiny bikini than Princess Peach but if the devs wanted they could make that seem logical as well by tweaking the theme or persona.

So for me it’s what I’m actually looking at that is the problem, and not having a choice to have less erotism, not the theme of the game or the made-up personality of those polygons.

I simply don’t want gaming and erotism in every single game, that’s where my annoyance comes from. If I wanted erotica I would play a full on erotic game. If I don’t want erotica then I shouldn’t get that forced upon me in a fighting game.

What if movies was like this? Ah, so you like martial arts? Well,, prepare to see Jackie Chan fight an actress in a skimpy bikini, likely jumping up and down or running at a beach to show off bouncy boobs...

Gaming devs have seemingly big issues creating a woman without thinking with their dick. Sorry to be so blunt about it.
They need to either close the fly or back off and let a woman create the character instead. This can’t continue. At least put in an erotism on/off switch in the options as with gore.
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
819
Tokyo, Japan
It’s a bunch of polygons. Can polygons be uncomfortable?

I know what you mean but the comfortable scenario is honestly a weak excuse as far as I’m concerned. Bayonetta might seem more comfortable wearing a tiny bikini than Princess Peach but if the devs wanted they could make that seem logical as well by tweaking the theme or persona.

So for me it’s what I’m actually looking at that is the problem, and not having a choice to have less erotism, not the theme of the game or the made-up personality of those polygons.
I think the "comfortable" thing is just another way of framing the whole "agency" argument.
Which is, in other words, having characters own their sexuality and not making it into something that's exclusively intended to arouse the viewer at the expense of the character's integrity.

I simply don’t want gaming and erotism in every single game, that’s where my annoyance comes from. If I wanted erotica I would play a full on erotic game. If I don’t want erotica then I shouldn’t get that forced upon me in a fighting game.

What if movies was like this? Ah, so you like martial arts? Well,, prepare to see Jackie Chan fight an actress in a skimpy bikini, likely jumping up and down or running at a beach to show off bouncy boobs...

Gaming devs have seemingly big issues creating a woman without thinking with their dick. Sorry to be so blunt about it.
They need to either close the fly or back off and let a woman create the character instead. This can’t continue. At least put in an erotism on/off switch in the options as with gore.
This all makes a lot of sense.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,545
I think the "comfortable" thing is just another way of framing the whole "agency" argument.
Which is, in other words, having characters own their sexuality and not making it into something that's exclusively intended to arouse the viewer at the expense of the character's integrity.
I still think it’s a bs excuse. I don’t care if the devs frame it so the character is actually a former stripper who wants to revenge the strip club manager for forcing her little sister into that world as well.
Close the fly and think up another theme instead so I don’t have to look at a stripper doing her catwalk pole dance thing for hours just because I like gaming.
In the end it’s just polygons and the character’s personality and the story are just ideas from a horny guy behind a desk.
 

DR2K

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,946
User Banned (Permanent): Trolling and Misrepresenting Concerns of Sexist Objectification; Prior Severe Ban for Excusing Blackface
This is why women don’t need (predominantly )white males defining their agency.

I’d rather be a pervert than an idiot who seeks validation in controlling some sort of weird cleavage agenda. It’s the double standard born out of deeply rooted puritanical and misogynistic ideals.
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
819
Tokyo, Japan
I still think it’s a bs excuse. I don’t care if the devs frame it so the character is actually a former stripper who wants to revenge the strip club manager for forcing her little sister into that world as well.
Close the fly and think up another theme instead so I don’t have to look at a stripper doing her catwalk pole dance thing for hours just because I like gaming.
In the end it’s just polygons and the character’s personality and the story are just ideas from a horny guy behind a desk.
I like to think that it depends on whether the design is implemented tastefully.

This is why women don’t need (predominantly )white males defining their agency.

I’d rather be a pervert than an idiot who seeks validation in controlling some sort of weird cleavage agenda. It’s the double standard born out of deeply rooted puritanical and misogynistic ideals.
Of course they don't. (But what's with the "predominantly white" comment?)

Is it okay to be a sophisticated pervert? I.e. it depends on the tastefulness of design, execution and "validation"?
(Read: Bayonetta is cool; Quiet is trash)
 

daxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,609
So for me it’s what I’m actually looking at that is the problem, and not having a choice to have less erotism, not the theme of the game or the made-up personality of those polygons.

I simply don’t want gaming and erotism in every single game, that’s where my annoyance comes from. If I wanted erotica I would play a full on erotic game. If I don’t want erotica then I shouldn’t get that forced upon me in a fighting game.
Totally with you here. Xenoblade 2 was one of the worst with this. Especially as a sequel to a not very horny game.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,671
You're aware that sexualization/fan service isn't exclusively geared toward men, right?


These are official illustrations from Fire Emblem Fates and I don't think any women (or men, shout out to my fellow bi boys) are 'creeps' for enjoying them, nor are people creeps for enjoying when the men of Marvel movies get their abs out. Anyone remember that scene where Peggy Carter is flustered by Cap's new chiseled body and even briefly touches his chest? (I don't blame her)

Now I'm not trying to say all fan service is equal, I know that some video games and anime often take it way too far when sexualizing women. When you get those sexy costumes to put on your characters, but the women have nothing but negative reactions and are clearly uncomfortable? Or when you take a character like Quiet and reduce her to nothing but eye candy until the last mission of the game? Things like this can fuck off, there's no excuse for it, but I do think it can be done tastefully or at least as tasteful as you can be with something inherently gratuitous.
These two costumes are, in my opinion, pretty harmless fan service that I wouldn't begrudge anyone for liking.
Even excluding the more problematic pedo-bait crap that infests most of these animu shitfests, the difference is that generally men get those "fan service" shots in somewhat appropriate contexts (i.e. people wear swimwear at the beach, nothing too objectionable to that) whereas female characters wear those minishorts/-skirts or fetish gear EVERYWHERE. Going to fight a dragon? Here's this ultimate armor: BIKINIS! You're a professional law enforcement agent? Here's your uniform of super tight minishorts that literally NO ONE ELSE wears.

Plus framing. Even when men show some skin/sexy abs, it's not treated with the same level of obsessiveness at every possible moment as every opportunity to objectify women is. One shot of Captain America with his shirt off or flexing his muscles is not the same as every female character being introduced with an ass-shot and bottom-to-top camera pan with a brief stop at their boobs & taking every change to frame women in sexy poses in revealing/tight clothing thereafter.
 

Conal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
799
'Fan Service' has turned me off plenty of properties I was a fan of so the term always seemed stupid to me.
 

John Proxy

Member
Nov 15, 2017
72
Hey, hey now, easy with the Gohan stuff. I'm rewatching the end of Cell saga with my son and man I miss that Gohan. Anyway:

I always thought of fan service as something totally superfluous to the main plot, but put in there for the fans (or a segment of the fans). Which is why putting scantily clad character designs in a show that ostensibly can work without that can be considered "fan service." So if you have an entire arc around future trunks, I'm not sure I'd consider that fan service, but I dunno.
I was thinking this. Fan Service. Even non sexual stuff is still gratuitous. Easter Eggs and Callbacks a return of and character because he was a fan favourite that's fan service not things that would reasonably happen in your series anyway. Whole whole point of writing in the first place is to entertain right? The entertaining parts aren't fanservice it should all be the entertaining parts. Fan Service is extra stuff thrown in. Like getting a mint after a meal.
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
425
I know what "fan service" should mean but, because language is fluid and changes all the time, it doesn't actually mean that any more and hasn't for years. Fan service = anime T&A.

You know how sometimes you see an icon for a phone and it's this?



This isn't what a phone is any more. Fan service is the same way.
 

Kuma Bear

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,759
Japan
Off topic but I wish we didn't allow sexualised avatars either. It's tacky, especially the one of Princess Peach as Bowser with her massive chest swinging around.
 

Mendrox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,657
I know what "fan service" should mean but, because language is fluid and changes all the time, it doesn't actually mean that any more and hasn't for years. Fan service = anime T&A.

You know how sometimes you see an icon for a phone and it's this?



This isn't what a phone is any more. Fan service is the same way.
The word is from the 80s - again it always has been fan service in the way of showing almost naked men/women.

Although the concepts had been used previously, the term itself "fan service" (ファンサービス fan sābisu) most likely originated in the late 80s to describe such scenes in anime and manga.[21] The term is used in the 1991 film Otaku no Video.
There is not even a big gap with things men and woman buy.

Also why is that not a phone anymore? ~_~ Bad example. It's not like landline died.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,460
Finland
Yes, people are horny. What does this have to do with dismissing sexual objectification which simultaneously rarely ever in nerd culture actually lets characters (significantly slanted against women btw) have a sexual identity of their own, but insists they be paraded around in such a way that lets straight dudes skeevily leer at them.
That's a great way to put it, succinct and clear.
But not board games or sports games?

What if I play a lot of Settler of Catan? Does it have to be the Switch version?
You'd be a board gamer. Interestingly if you play with cards you're a card player, not card gamer. If you're software that plays computer multimedia files, you're a media player. I personally think "video game player" sounds clunkier than gamer, so I rather use that.

Edit: Actually reminded me about Michael Fassbender at AC movie interview, “That’s definitely happening. We’re just developing the script at the moment. I’d heard of it but had never played the game. I don’t have a video game player"
 
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