Most of our population is white tho, and we are still target of the same hateful propaganda of the white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups that target black people. If that's not being victim of racism, then sorry for feeling that way.
Can you be racist towards white people?
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You 100% can and sometimes the causal racism towards white people here is staggering. Like disproportionately, in the Western world and media, it's white people being racist to others, but the opposite can happen. I'm not even white, but I still least can treat everyone equally regardless of skin colour.
Most white hispanics are multi-racial but they can pass as completely white.
It’s more appearance-based than anything else.
And I'm just saying that if the definition of racism is reserved for whites only (supremacy and power) than maybe we think about it in the terms of being prejudice.
I feel like the topic is presented in semantics to get the idea across, for what ever reason, that you can't be racist towards white people. The definition of racism I feel socially is more akin to a specific type of prejudice.
If that is the case, regardless, you can be prejudice towards white people. Pre-judging some one for their group they are "in".
Yeah, oppression is a good word. I just think that telling people that oppression/systemic racism exists and convincing them of it is more important than making sure that racism is the word that is used for it. Because people will be confused if they think you're trying to say that racial prejudice against white people is impossible.
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I don't think anyone's said that, just the opposite actually.
Over and over again in the thread the comparison has been made that yes, anybody including POC's can be racist. The thing is the bigger issue is that the modern impact of racism isn't just, 'Hey fuck u (insert slur here)' but also systemic things in place which is why just boiling down to just one on one bigotry doesn't capture the picture. Not like there's an all black police force riding to white towns beating down white kids for speeding.
Bigger picture the 'blacks are racist too' is also used as a defense to let white systemic racism slide, "I got slapped by a black guy in high school and called cracker, thus everyone is racist, thus black people complaining about America being racist is stupid because everyone is racist so all this BLM, equal pay, prison industrial complex is whining by the blacks and mexicans who want free shit...errr. shit, was that racist, my bad' which is why everyone is like 'its not that easy to call it racism' since the societal implications are MUCH bigger than that.
Like I said earlier, black people can be hella racist to black people, colorism is a thing. Its such a simple OP question that now its expanded *shrug*
You make
what are we arguing about then?
Being racist is being prejudiced.
There are two different definitions of racism.
Systemic racism and individual racism which you defined as prejudice. They’re both aspects of racism and the common person thinks of the latter as racism far more than the former.
Saying you can’t be racist against white people actually confuses people because they have no clue what systemic racism is.
Just discriminating against someone based on their race without needing to feel superior to them would be classified as racism by most people.
I didn't know that there was no culture attached to being LGBT whatsoever (but that's honestly another debate, hun). Also, who talked about minimizing when I acknowledged in my previous posts how that discussion was also worth having? But you've been trying to make false equivalences between things that have vastly different scales for pages now, and I'm just here to call you out on it. To me you sound like an MRA trying to make the case about how important it is we need to focus on those 5 dudes who get beaten by their wives in a year, while at the same time not batting an eye & dismissing how there are thousands of women literally dying of systemic misogynistic abuse from their male partners. The sole fact you don't see what you're saying is mind-boggling to me. Who cares the least here, I wonder, but I don't think that's me.
I’m still not sure what the point of this discussion is. I mean, it’s a fact that one can discriminate a white person based on his or her whiteness. Whether you’re OK with that is up to you - in my opinion when you judge someone based on where they come from or their skin type, it just makes you look like an asshole. It’s also clear that discrimination against PoC is much more widespread and systematic and therefore as a whole on a different scale of being fucking terrible, I don’t think anyone is even arguing against that. So what we’re left with is whether the word “racism” includes a context of systematic oppression or not. OK, great - now we’re basically left with arguing semantics.
Ok so white peoples culture is white supremacy?
What are black and brown people culture then?
I think a good thread to have would be a retread of this: https://www.resetera.com/threads/which-definition-of-racism-do-you-use.81600/, it's been a while unless there have been more recent ones, because it is a more targeted discussion.
Id think its more like 'discussion'. The concept of "whiteness" and how it its imaginary, colonialism of Africa, etc. Its a discussion on racism, systemic and on smaller levels, and how does past historical issues vs power dynamics play in it in 2019
I mean, if you feel like you're getting nothing out of it this post you ain't gotta be in it, lol. All things considered its been pretty respectful for a race post, im getting something out of it *shrug*
Doesn't this sort of imply that whiteness doesn't have any value as an identity label, though, if it's applied arbitrarily? That "whiteness" didn't protect the Jews, or the Irish, or the Bosniaks, when they fell under the crosshairs of whatever group is in power and immediately became othered. It's a "no true Scotsman" type thing - if you're the victim of racism, you stop being white. The only exceptions I can think of is when a white-dominated power structure is upended - I'm thinking the Haitian revolution where people were targeted specifically for their whiteness, or their perceived proximity to whiteness, due to that chaotic period of actual rebellion.
I don't disagree with any of that, I'm just thinking to myself, isn't this sort of missing the underlying point of the question? You can't be racist toward white people because white isn't a race and no one is really "white." But that doesn't discount the reality that people who receive the label "white" can be victims of individual as well as systemic prejudice due to their nationality or ethnicity. I think the difference is pretty much just semantics.
"Black culture," specifically the culture of those whose ancestors were displaced by the Transatlantic Slave Trade, can be easily summarized as the cultural norms that evolved in direct opposition and as a response to white supremacy. Much of the origins and meaning of the art, food, language, music, clothing, et. al that are codified as black can be traced back to slavery and the conditions therein.
"Brown people" is an admittedly broad code for a multitude of other groups, like Latino, Natives, and East Indian peoples, so if you want an opinion about those cultures I would advise you to ask members of specific groups.
Hate to break it to you, but the majority of Mexicans are white. The US has tried to convince people otherwise.
I dunno why people keep on questioning his point when it's straightfoward. "Whiteness" "Black Culture" etc...all came about when the powers that be needed to justify chattel slavery. THESE 'black' people over here are subhuman thus by enslaving them its not a big deal, THESE 'white' people over here are actually real humans thus we all share a similar bond.
Like Te-nahesi Coates said in one of his Atlantic as America becomes more diverse if it doesn't deal with its systemic issues it will just adapt its concept of whiteness and blackness in the future like it did in the past with Italians/Irish who weren't considered white in the past. In 2090 white passing latinos will be more easily accepted as they tow the GOP line, etc.
I dunno about this. Sure visibility (television movies) might focus on those with white features but the majority? Nah
.. so white people are a single group you can mash together? Scandinavia is pretty much the same as those in italy? Or germany? Or russia?
Is that your point finally? And we are all
some kind of nazis?
Are you reading what you are actually saying behind all those long sentences?
As if this excuses the massacres and human rights abuses. Also, I don't think you understand what cognitive dissonance means.
What are they then? I'd imagine Mexicans would be mostly white (Latin origin) with a sizeable group of African descent.
Only answering in the context of where I live, people can be but it's not on the same level as what POV have to face.
Like I'm a walking embodiment of the Aryan dream, aside from Warzones and some really run down places I can relatively easily slide myself into any job or social situation without too much issue.
Whereas I've seen how people who aren't English, let alone POC, are treated, and even the small fragment that I see is clear enough that I got it very lucky in life.
Like I've legit never had anything said about me being white, and if they ever do say it it's gonna be an outlier that has no effect on my life.
Like I'm a walking embodiment of the Aryan dream, aside from Warzones and some really run down places I can relatively easily slide myself into any job or social situation without too much issue.
Whereas I've seen how people who aren't English, let alone POC, are treated, and even the small fragment that I see is clear enough that I got it very lucky in life.
Like I've legit never had anything said about me being white, and if they ever do say it it's gonna be an outlier that has no effect on my life.
On the contrary, my point on the arbitration of whiteness was in response to the idea that there is a "white culture" that is based on any reasonably consistency regarding cultural or even genetic definitions. There isn't; ergo, my argument is that the most lasting and consistent ideal of "white culture" is the upholding of a white supremacist status quo, either passively or actively. Subsequently whiteness has value as a label because it is the highest level of the racial caste system in the western world you can be born into, or more rarely attain. Whiteness is a concept that actually exists, and when you're white, you simply don't have to worry about how your race affects your goings-on. When you're not white, things get hairy.
You say that "whiteness" didn't protect the Jews, Irish, or Bosniaks from racism when you're fundamentally mischaracterizing the argument with the implication that these groups were always white based upon skin color. What you fail to realize is that skin color was never the litmus test for whiteness, otherwise the assholes who created the concept would've included all white-skinned peoples from the outset. Again, whiteness is a sociopolitical power grab, not an ethnic concept. These groups weren't persecuted for being white, and even if they were considered white at the time of persecution I guarantee you the persecution would not have been admittedly administered on the basis of them being "white" (which is what this topic is about, the idea that you can be racist against white people). It would've been for national, religious, cultural, or any other bullshit reason to justify atrocity, just not "whiteness." I mean, obviously. You can't go around slaying whites on the basis that they're white if you're a white supremacist. It makes no sense! You gotta think up another reason why these folks don't belong, until they're convenient enough for you to wash your hands and invite them into the club in order to keep the blacks and browns away.
Indigenous Mexicans are a still a very very large part of the population. Its not a case like in Argentina where they basically genocided their indigenous and African population. Problem is in Mexico, white is right, like most places in the world. Like the slack the actress in Roma received when the movie blew up because she wasn't a 'real' representation of Mexico
That's....literally the point of whiteness. Italians, Germans, Scandinavians, Britons, Russians-- These are all "white" folks. Literally the point of "whiteness" is to mash up disparate and unique cultures under some idiotic identity label to prevent unity among the proletariat.
This isn't something I'm doing, by the way. I'm merely pointing out what those European fuckbois did all those centuries ago, and what people continue to do in a world where white supremacy is the norm. Weird how people are shooting the messenger when I philosophically cast whiteness in a negative light, but man let me tell you about how people were up in arms that Ciri might have been non-white in the Netflix show. Oh, don't point out the fact that they didn't care whether or not the actress was actually Polish as per the cultural roots of The Witcher series. Screw that. They wanted her to be "white."
Funny how that works. Funny how whiteness becomes a unifying identity label that disparate cultures can unite under when it's convenient, and when it becomes inconvenient you have the privilege of falling back on the various unique cultures you also belong to, the ones that are inherently given up for whiteness in the first place.
Now you're just making shit up. I've never said that white people in general have it worse than PoC, that would be pretty dumb. But saying that white people can't be systemically discriminated against is false, yes it usually happens at the hands of other whites, but this shit happens. You're the one who implied that historical struggles of Bosniaks or Albanians or Irish aren't worth mentioning because they have it better and turned the conversation into suffering olympics and semantic porn.
It absolutely is racism but it's not based on being white.
This in essence. Racism is an institution ran by white males so technically you can't be racist to white people but certainly you can be racist regardless of what colour you are and attacking.
I’m saying the majority of the Jewish population is white and the majority of the Jewish population experiences racism.
That’s very American-centric. It depends on the country and region.
It’s not only white people in power and not all white people consider every single white person as part of their club of whiteness.
Not saying otherwise but it's not as a result of being white.
It's both different and similar, while all these cultures you mentioned are unique, their languages and heritage have the same root, which is Indo-European.
Most Americans don’t know the ancestors culture to began with, most are a mix of ten or more different cultures. Me for example for the best I can find out out is scot Irish and I think on my mom side is some German judging by her maiden name being schulter. I don’t know a single person born in America to parents or grandparents born here that know when there family came to America or were they originally came from. The only culture I can claim 100% is being from the pacific north west.
It's the case with the most powerful countries on this planet like UK, Russia, China etc.
"Indo-European" includes distinctly non-white peoples too, like East Indian folks. They cannot claim whiteness on this label, not only because they don't look the part nor have consideration by the powers that be, but also because Chinese people tried a similar tactic regarding a shared cultural ancestry based upon these geographical terms and the Supreme Court laughed them out of the courthouse.
Basically this, the majority race of a country is the one able to establish institutional racism.
Here in America white people culture is indeed white supremacy. The entire foundation and structure of the country is built upon white supremacy to protect and sustain white supremacy.
That said, regarding the title, no. No one should ever concern themselves with the feelings white people on the matter of race when every single bit of struggle on the basis of race comes exclusively from white people.
Why does it matter?
They're white people who experience racism, which many in this thread would have you believe impossible.
End of.
Because if that's the end to the conversation it's akin to asking can Black people experience homophobia....
It's pretty clear the topic of this thread is asking something more specific.
"Racism against white people" is an irrelevant and unimportant conversation.
Its highly irrelevant ESPECIALLY on the same the Supremacist in chief is conducting mass raids of latinos across the US.
Its irrelevant when the rise of a multitude of political far right white nationalist groups are banding together to grab political power and discriminate against citizens of color in their respective countries.
Its irrelevant when white people get checked on their privilege and they get defensive and try to resort to claiming "racism against whites" as a defensive maneuver
Its irrelevant when white people aren't overwhelmingly being killed for the color of their skin
Most importantly, its irrelevant when the entire concept of race and whiteness was created by Colonial White Settlers in order to ostracize other racial groups and galvanize other white passing racial groups in order to consolidate power
So sure, you can disagree with my view but I'm gonna be short and to the point. For real though, today is probably the most idiotic day to ask this question when we have Gestapo lite running around.
Its highly irrelevant ESPECIALLY on the same the Supremacist in chief is conducting mass raids of latinos across the US.
Its irrelevant when the rise of a multitude of political far right white nationalist groups are banding together to grab political power and discriminate against citizens of color in their respective countries.
Its irrelevant when white people get checked on their privilege and they get defensive and try to resort to claiming "racism against whites" as a defensive maneuver
Its irrelevant when white people aren't overwhelmingly being killed for the color of their skin
Most importantly, its irrelevant when the entire concept of race and whiteness was created by Colonial White Settlers in order to ostracize other racial groups and galvanize other white passing racial groups in order to consolidate power
So sure, you can disagree with my view but I'm gonna be short and to the point. For real though, today is probably the most idiotic day to ask this question when we have Gestapo lite running around.
The simplest answer in this thread. Well said melody.
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