Canada PoliERA |OT 2| I Got Ninety Nine MPs, But An Albertan Ain't One

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,009
Oh, if Bernie (or Warren) wins the DNC AND gets Elected. Progressives are going to full on riot. Just the people who have Student Loans are going to be so pissed as they watch our neighbors to the south immediately become debt free meanwhile they are still stuck paying their monthly bills
I always see this as one of the poison pill for Warren and Sanders. In the US your university loan can go to 50k$ and even 100k$ which is frankly disgusting. They'll never be able to explain in a way to make sense to the majority of Americans that are not college educated and wouldn't get that "gift" or the college folks that already paid theirs. It also doesn't really fix the core issues with their system. Moreover people are also increasingly self-centered but also require very different kind of government services. Like If you take into account their messed up healthcare system then you have another issue if you want to be fair to everyone. Erase student debt but not healthcare debt?

Current US student debt is like 1 USD Trillion. Which is also the current yearly budget deficit there. Massive amount of money.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if it happens but I feel it's more or less selling dreams. Kind of happy I was born in Canada where Uni was affordable.
 

Morrigan

Arrogant Smirk
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
14,300
If you want my honest answer instead of "here's how i'd reform Canada's justice system (greater focus on rehabilitation for street crimes instead of punitive sentencing, repealing Harper's minimums and allowing judges to employ more flexible sentencing, massively increasing sentencing for white collar crimes, among other changes)"...I wouldn't
The issue here is that if you abolish the RCMP and don't replace it with anything at all, you will have many communities in Canada with essentially no police at all. Now I know the "acab" folks will say "exactly! great!" and all, but let's face it, that's not exactly helpful here either, is it? In Québec we have the Sûreté, and in places with no provincial police, the big cities have their own police, but smaller towns would get fucked over.
 

FriskyCanuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,210
Toronto, Canada
Ontario and Quebec are the only provinces that have their own provincial police iirc. Any talk of disbanding the RCMP would need provisions in place for the provinces to be able to police the remote and small communities or allow themselves the capability of policing themselves.
 
Ground up reform is probably the furthest we could ever go with this, doubt much of Canada would turn into police abolitionists over night!
Which is good, since police abolition has no plausible relation to how societies actually work. The starting point is "what if we create a functional utopia?"

Ontario and Quebec are the only provinces that have their own provincial police iirc. Any talk of disbanding the RCMP would need provisions in place for the provinces to be able to police the remote and small communities or allow themselves the capability of policing themselves.
I don't see what disbanding the RCMP would actually accomplish, seeing as the RCMP does not drive criminal justice or land development policy; when they clash with the pipeline protesters, it's fundamentally because the pipeline has been authorized to be built and it's the job of the federal police to enforce the law unless directed not to.

Now, as with any such agency, there are reforms that can and should be made as far as tactics, community relations, etc., but acting like replacing the RCMP with people with a different name and the exact same job has changed anything of note is fallacious.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,314
Toronto
Ontario and Quebec are the only provinces that have their own provincial police iirc. Any talk of disbanding the RCMP would need provisions in place for the provinces to be able to police the remote and small communities or allow themselves the capability of policing themselves.
You dont actually want the police to be abolished. Such a thing would immediately flip the switch on the whole industry being corporatized because companies and rich people would never, ever let themselves go without protection. You'd have an Authoritarian Corporate Police State reminiscent of the most Dystopic civilizations seen in Entertainment.
 

Deleted member 49179

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2018
4,140
You dont actually want the police to be abolished. Such a thing would immediately flip the switch on the whole industry being corporatized because companies and rich people would never, ever let themselves go without protection. You'd have an Authoritarian Corporate Police State reminiscent of the most Dystopic civilizations seen in Entertainment.
This!
 
They’re probably more worried that he’ll get the nomination, lose to Trump, and kill any desire to elect non-moderate progressive leaders for a decade.
Indeed, the notion that fear of a Sanders nomination among Democratic moderates is driven by recognition that he'll win is one of the most self-serving delusions among the more left-wing members of the party. It was the same with the Corbyn movement in the UK, right up until the point where Corbyn's inevitable triumph turned into a ride off a cliff.

None of which is to say I think Sanders couldn't win a general election, but questioning the risk of his not succeeding and what the implications of that would be is a completely justifiable fear.

You dont actually want the police to be abolished. Such a thing would immediately flip the switch on the whole industry being corporatized because companies and rich people would never, ever let themselves go without protection. You'd have an Authoritarian Corporate Police State reminiscent of the most Dystopic civilizations seen in Entertainment.
More to the point, who exactly is going to be dealing with: murder, sexual assault, burglary, property crimes, human trafficking, financial crimes, organized crime, terrorism, illegal and otherwise extralegal firearms, and the thousand and one other things police exist to deal with? Or do all those just go away once we abolish policing?
 

Fuzzy

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,247
Toronto
You dont actually want the police to be abolished. Such a thing would immediately flip the switch on the whole industry being corporatized because companies and rich people would never, ever let themselves go without protection. You'd have an Authoritarian Corporate Police State reminiscent of the most Dystopic civilizations seen in Entertainment.
Continuum was filmed in Vancouver...
 

FriskyCanuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,210
Toronto, Canada
I'm posting this here because I don't want to get accused of always spamming threads that slag off the Canadian military.

OTTAWA — The Department of National Defence has identified delays in more than 100 planned military purchases and facility upgrades, most of which have flown under the radar as attention has focused on the government’s problems buying new fighter jets and warships.

While some of the schedule setbacks revealed by the Defence Department are relatively minor, others are significant, with the delivery dates for new or upgraded equipment — some of which is needed urgently — pushed several years into the future.

Those include new engineering vehicles and machine-guns for the army, new drones for the navy to hunt mines and satellite hookups for its submarines, and upgrades to the air force’s aging fighter-jet and surveillance aircraft fleets.
Yet there have been several examples in recent years of the military either doing without because equipment got too old to use or the government investing taxpayer dollars to keep old gear going longer than anticipated.

Those include the navy having been without destroyers for the past few years, the government spending nearly $700 million to lease a temporary supply ship and plans to spend more than $1 billion to keep CF-18 fighters from the 1980s flying to 2032.

While some of those problems were caused by political dithering or mismanagement, they nonetheless underscore the real cost of delays.
The list of delayed projects produced by the Defence Department included brief explanations for why each procurement has been delayed. Some, such as the purchase of new machine-guns, related to problems with industry and fell outside government’s control.

Others were afflicted with unforeseen technical issues and many of the delays were the result of “detailed schedule analysis” by government officials, suggesting the original timeframes were unrealistic or otherwise inaccurate.

There were also several delays, such as a plan to upgrade the sensors and weapons on the air force’s Griffon helicopters, attributed to a shortage of procurement staff and other internal government resources.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,301
You dont actually want the police to be abolished. Such a thing would immediately flip the switch on the whole industry being corporatized because companies and rich people would never, ever let themselves go without protection. You'd have an Authoritarian Corporate Police State reminiscent of the most Dystopic civilizations seen in Entertainment.
I mean, this is premised on the assumption that the criminal justice system is in any way fair and equal in the first place though.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Police abolition has its merits, but I think it requires a long list of societal upheavals to make practical (one being prison abolition, which I reckon much nearer and more appreciable in its immediate benefits).
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,301
I think speaking of abolition is a bit much... Be careful for what you wish for; there’s nothing saying it wouldn’t be replaced by something that would end up being far worse. It could evolve, be modified, though. But such reforms would need to come from the political side.

Let me repost this comic from yesterday:

I think the centrist answer of "people are stupid but they'll learn their lesson and come back to us" to many of society's problems is essentially driving us farther and farther right with these extreme responses. But I don't think people actually want to question whether or not the existing power structures are working, because the retort always comes down to "well do you want to go back to a pre-industrialist feudal society"?

I don't know what the answer is, other than it's clear that we're entering a regressive mode in response to the pressures of globalization and the demand of increased consumption. But rather than try to address any of the systemic issues that make people want to be reactionary, we're just assuming that things will get better by magic. In the same way that we think carbon tax credits is going to stop Australia from burning I suppose.

It's even funnier when on some issues, we can't even agree to treat the symptoms. This precious, centrist conservatism is why we can't get a gun ban in Canada even though people keep getting shot here. But at least it's not as bad as in the US, so let's just pretend it's not a problem?
 
OP
OP
Caz

Caz

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,210
Canada
I have no idea how we've jumped from "the RCMP is a bad institution whose origin is rooted in colonialism and has done demonstrable damage to marginalized people that is in no way compatible with a society that purports itself to be fair and just" to "this means Canada should be an anarchist state with no group to enforce its laws by burning them to the ground and is definitely a thing that I support/is going to happen".

"We can ensure Canada's justice system is just without the RCMP" was my point, namely since the RCMP is exacerbating many of the problems within Canada's justice system i.e. locking up people who suffer from mental illness, of which a disproportionate amount of those locked up happen to be indigenous (because the RCMP, along with other institutions, specifically targeting indigenous communities, not to mention the systemic racism that manifests in barriers to properly accessing healthcare for one's mental health), the lack of proper enforcement for white collar crimes, to say nothing of how often the punishment for said crimes doesn't match the damage it caused in the first place, etc.

If I didn't make that clear enough in my post then apologies for not doing so.
I'm posting this here because I don't want to get accused of always spamming threads that slag off the Canadian military.

I wouldn't mind that.
 
I'm posting this here because I don't want to get accused of always spamming threads that slag off the Canadian military.

Military procurement is an embarrassment under every single government, dispiritingly. I'm not sure any government since maybe the King/St. Laurent period has been remotely effective at it.

I mean, this is premised on the assumption that the criminal justice system is in any way fair and equal in the first place though.
No, it's premised on the question of whether the proposed alternative is better, which it isn't. There are problems with the criminal justice system (as a lawyer, I've worked in it); debate over how to change it and what the impact of changes have been is a constant process, as well, and the general direction has been positive.

Police abolition has its merits, but I think it requires a long list of societal upheavals to make practical (one being prison abolition, which I reckon much nearer and more appreciable in its immediate benefits).
I've yet to see any proposed society where police abolition would be practical. It requires utopian assumptions about human nature that are better-suited to libertarian economic models than to any sort of sound liberal policymaking.

It's even funnier when on some issues, we can't even agree to treat the symptoms. This precious, centrist conservatism is why we can't get a gun ban in Canada even though people keep getting shot here. But at least it's not as bad as in the US, so let's just pretend it's not a problem?
I have not seen anyone suggest that gun violence is not a problem. You're confusing people not thinking that your proposed solution is either desirable or practical or would have the effect you seem to want with people not thinking it's a problem in the first place.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
I've yet to see any proposed society where police abolition would be practical. It requires utopian assumptions about human nature that are better-suited to libertarian economic models than to any sort of sound liberal policymaking.
Well, I'm not a utopian, nor do I hold any overly rosy (or pessimistic) notions about human nature. If it comes, the material conditions must be conducive and society shaped from the bottom up to support it. Like with many things, it's probably the work of generations. You can't exactly blueprint that. Just strive.
 
Well, I'm not a utopian, nor do I hold any overly rosy (or pessimistic) notions about human nature. If it comes, the material conditions must be conducive and society shaped from the bottom up to support it. Like with many things, it's probably the work of generations. You can't exactly blueprint that. Just strive.
As I see it, even in a hypothetical ideal socio-economic order where everybody has a reasonable standard of living and we've made tremendous progress on gender and racial biases, etc., there's no realistic scenario where crime still doesn't exist. Some people will always want more, or lash out at others, and so on.

Now, in this hypothetical society we would undoubtedly require fewer police than we currently have, just like we'd require fewer prisons than we currently have (there will always been some segment of the population who just need to be locked up for public safety), but that's not abolition.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
As I see it, even in a hypothetical ideal socio-economic order where everybody has a reasonable standard of living and we've made tremendous progress on gender and racial biases, etc., there's no realistic scenario where crime still doesn't exist. Some people will always want more, or lash out at others, and so on.

Now, in this hypothetical society we would undoubtedly require fewer police than we currently have, just like we'd require fewer prisons than we currently have (there will always been some segment of the population who just need to be locked up for public safety), but that's not abolition.
Much as police aren't the universal answer to crime (no more than the supposed deterrence of execution, which was once far more popular), prisons aren't the universal answer to the need to protect the public. Neither have they been in the past. Within our given socio-political context it can be difficult to imagine something better, but even if we can't, it's important to agitate for it and see what can be done.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,301
No, it's premised on the question of whether the proposed alternative is better, which it isn't. There are problems with the criminal justice system (as a lawyer, I've worked in it); debate over how to change it and what the impact of changes have been is a constant process, as well, and the general direction has been positive.
I don't know how you solve systemic racism within the structures of society that continue to reproduce it though and I'm not even going to pretend to have an answer.

But let's say one answer is to have more Indigenous judges and crown lawyers in Canada to be able to better fight against the biases that exist in the system, then the question becomes how do you get more Indigenous peoples into law school? And then you begin to tease apart questions of whether Indigenous peoples should be subjected to colonialist power structures in order to attempt to make it fairer, starting with the fact that they would be servants of the crown. But even before you have that conversation, you have to think about how some of these people are supposed to worry about getting into college and law school and the ethical issues that come with serving the crown when they don't even have safe drinking water.

I know it's not as important as the law, but as someone who is adjacent to memory institution work and the call for the decolonization of libraries and archives, the same issues apply. There are people working in this space, but the fact that you need at least 6 years of education to work in a library or an archive - and then in the case of working for LAC, you also need to be bilingual as well - creates the conditions where you essentially exclude the people who you need to help dismantle the power structures that we all understand are problematic.

I hope people are able to put in the work to tease out and solve some of these issues. I'm at a point where I'm happy to let it go because the emotional labour is damaging to my mental health and I'm okay with contributing by living my own life as best as I can without harming others.

I have not seen anyone suggest that gun violence is not a problem. You're confusing people not thinking that your proposed solution is either desirable or practical or would have the effect you seem to want with people not thinking it's a problem in the first place.
Both the Liberals and the Conservatives have made political calculations about how to tackle gun control to maximize the votes that they can get. Which is why our action is essentially inaction - in the current Liberal case, unless they've changed their policy, it's to allow jurisdictions to set their own laws. I don't even care if that's a right or wrong choice anymore. I just recognize that it's the most politically convenient.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,834
Also, Bernie's power comes not from his policies, but his movement. Like his ground game and volunteer network is insane, the NDP has nothing like that because they don't inspire people the same way.
This is just me but Bernie's a populist and I don't trust populists.

It's the easiest thing in the world to tell desperate people exactly what they want to hear, and they forget that bills have to pass 2 chambers.

He's not dismantling the American for-profit healthcare system anymore than Trump is building a border wall with Mexico and sending them the bill. Obama promised a lot too "Yes We Can", turns out we can't.

I'm just cynical. Conservatives have it easy, since all they do is destroy.

It's a lot harder to create something from scratch.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,096
This is just me but Bernie's a populist and I don't trust populists.

It's the easiest thing in the world to tell desperate people exactly what they want to hear, and they forget that bills have to pass 2 chambers.

He's not dismantling the American for-profit healthcare system anymore than Trump is building a border wall with Mexico and sending them the bill. Obama promised a lot too "Yes We Can", turns out we can't.

I'm just cynical. Conservatives have it easy, since all they do is destroy.

It's a lot harder to create something from scratch.
Pretty much
 

Morrigan

Arrogant Smirk
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
14,300
Which is good, since police abolition has no plausible relation to how societies actually work. The starting point is "what if we create a functional utopia?"


I don't see what disbanding the RCMP would actually accomplish, seeing as the RCMP does not drive criminal justice or land development policy; when they clash with the pipeline protesters, it's fundamentally because the pipeline has been authorized to be built and it's the job of the federal police to enforce the law unless directed not to.

Now, as with any such agency, there are reforms that can and should be made as far as tactics, community relations, etc., but acting like replacing the RCMP with people with a different name and the exact same job has changed anything of note is fallacious.
More to the point, who exactly is going to be dealing with: murder, sexual assault, burglary, property crimes, human trafficking, financial crimes, organized crime, terrorism, illegal and otherwise extralegal firearms, and the thousand and one other things police exist to deal with? Or do all those just go away once we abolish policing?
Thank you. Kind of bonkers that you even have to say it, but yeah.
Police abolition has its merits
It really doesn't. Not in any kind of reality-based context anyway.
I have no idea how we've jumped from "the RCMP is a bad institution whose origin is rooted in colonialism and has done demonstrable damage to marginalized people that is in no way compatible with a society that purports itself to be fair and just" to "this means Canada should be an anarchist state with no group to enforce its laws by burning them to the ground and is definitely a thing that I support/is going to happen".
Because, as was pointed out, abolishing the RCMP without replacing it, which is what you and others have actually suggested verbatim, entirely means you're leaving a huge amount of communities without police at all. Do you not realize that? That literally every single small town outside of Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland would have no police whatsoever without the RCMP?

I mean... yes, reform the RCMP to dismantle the systemic racism, corruption that protects privileged white collar criminals, etc. within. By all means. But you can do that without, you know, abolishing the RCMP. This is a textbook example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 

Prax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,644
Yeah, I generally distrust and dislike populists even though JT himself is exactly kind of that lol.

But I GUESS if it's DT populism vs Bernie Sanders populism, I hope the latter wins. I am just.. hoping it's not "BS" after all if he does. A major fumble there could Bob Rae the movement in America for decades.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,834

The Conservative Party that most Canadians have known—the political centre that previously had the ability to find centre terrain on the most divisive issues of the day—has disappeared. What contemporary Conservative strategists and the media seem to have significant difficulty recognizing is that Canadian politics has become much more like American politics—it’s become tribal. And just as two Americas have taken root and blossomed, two Canadas are appearing on this side of the border.
Maclean's piece on how our politics has become polarized just like the US and how moderates have fled the CPC, any overtures they do like marching in pride parades is window dressing.
 

Arthois

Member
Oct 27, 2017
411
The issue here is that if you abolish the RCMP and don't replace it with anything at all, you will have many communities in Canada with essentially no police at all. Now I know the "acab" folks will say "exactly! great!" and all, but let's face it, that's not exactly helpful here either, is it? In Québec we have the Sûreté, and in places with no provincial police, the big cities have their own police, but smaller towns would get fucked over.
Almost every issue that the 8 other provinces have can be fixed by simply having a stronger Provincial government. If they didn't rely on the federal government so much our country would be way better off.
 

Pedrito

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,350
And it's not like the SQ has a better reputation anyway. Whatever police force you have, they'd still apply the same laws in the same places. Work on better educate policemen/policewomen instead. Just changing the name on the door won't change anything.
 

Thanatos

Community Manager
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
468
Montreal
The issue here is that if you abolish the RCMP and don't replace it with anything at all, you will have many communities in Canada with essentially no police at all. Now I know the "acab" folks will say "exactly! great!" and all, but let's face it, that's not exactly helpful here either, is it? In Québec we have the Sûreté, and in places with no provincial police, the big cities have their own police, but smaller towns would get fucked over.
And, to add to this, the Sûreté in Quebec have their own, rather long, laundry list of flaws.

This was one of the more infamous cases: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/val-dor-abuse-surete-du-quebec-montreal-police-1.3849786
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,027
Yup.

The last thing I need is a more powerful Doug Ford (which Scheer would have done).
Except for the part about oil pipelines. He wanted the Feds to be able to push those through regardless of how provinces felt (and by provinces he meant everyone not called Alberta and Saskatchewan).
 

Simon Belmont

Member
Oct 25, 2017
974
Almost every issue that the 8 other provinces have can be fixed by simply having a stronger Provincial government. If they didn't rely on the federal government so much our country would be way better off.

I’m not sure I’d use the word “simply” to describe changing the constitution. This had been tried before and both times it failed spectacularly.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,301
Almost every issue that the 8 other provinces have can be fixed by simply having a stronger Provincial government. If they didn't rely on the federal government so much our country would be way better off.
We already have a weak federal government, which is why access to abortion services can be impossible to get in the Atlantic provinces. Let alone any pharmacare reform.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,834

Alberta Premier Jason Kenney says he believes his former cabinet colleague John Baird is "seriously considering" a run for the Conservative leadership.

"If somebody like John Baird steps forward, I think that would help to enliven the race," said Kenney following a panel discussion in Washington, D.C., Friday.

"I believe he's seriously considering it."
I guess McKay and O'Tool aren't exciting enough for Harper.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,027
Of course he did. The fucker loves Trump and the GOP.

Premier Doug Ford went on a business trip to Ohio declaring “I’m a big Republican” but taking U.S. President Donald Trump to task on trade.

Ford, who last year said there was “not a doubt in my mind” he would have voted for Trump

They want to run this country the same way their brethren the GOP do. So any insult to Trump and Co, hurts them too.
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
9,891
Ford also commented on Sanders:






Ford and the idiots in his circle consume Canadian right-wing media content, which is filled with American right-wing content, because Canadian right-wing content is unremarkable and boring on its own. It's why MAGA Canadians are a thing. It's why #wexit randos mention "AOC" or "the squad" when they reply to CBC tweets.
 

Pedrito

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,350
I remember Trump's popularity in Canada being extremely low three years ago. I believe it's now at around 30%, which is pretty much the size of the conservative base. So if you're conservative, it seems it's now a requirement being a Trump lover nowadays. Stan for moronic wannabe dictators to own the libs.