Canada PoliERA |OT 2| I Got Ninety Nine MPs, But An Albertan Ain't One

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,835
normal people in ontario weren't going to care about native land and native lives until some sort of action was being taken to make them take notice.

all of a sudden you care

protesting works
It will just push more people to demand the government round up the protesters imo.

I remember this:



No one has really cared for a long time, they're not going to start now.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
239
It will just push more people to demand the government round up the protesters imo.

I remember this:



No one has really cared for a long time, they're not going to start now.
so what? the protestors should just fade meekly into the night and accept a slow but quiet death? switch to pamphlets at bus stops? if we need to push them out with guns and soldiers then native leaders, communities, activists, allies, can build out strategies from there and the mask comes off on reconciliation and the thin veneer of 'respect' the nation has for its' indigenous people (and the environment in general)

whether or not the nation cares is its' own problem, not the protestors
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,305
I meant the general public.

You inconvenience people they just push back regardless of how noble your cause is.

Just look at Extinction Rebellion.
It's why I'm in full nihilist mode, because what's more inconvenient than a continent burning to the ground?

Parents mad at Ontario teachers now - I hope your kids enjoy sending your grand kids to classrooms with 60 students where all they do is watch Lynda.com videos.
 

hrœrekr

Member
May 3, 2019
587
Tell your Federal MP to not build the pipeline then.
My Federal MP doesn't have this power.
But even, what are the consequences of not building it? What are the options on the table? What the majority chose to do?

normal people in ontario weren't going to care about native land and native lives until some sort of action was being taken to make them take notice.

all of a sudden you care

protesting works
No. All of a sudden I hate their cause.
Protesting to raise awareness is a valid tool, forcing disruption on people's lives and causing financial and emotional damage is not. It's a crime.
People will loose their jobs if this continues.
 
May 30, 2018
922
Not so much pro civil rights when you are buying votes for a UN Security council seat abroad eh?

Imagine the horrific optics if he did the opposite?

"White Privileged Liberal PM lectures African country on homosexuality"

Trudeau was correct to not respond, better for us to get a UNSC seat than serve up useless platitudes, because we all know a stern talking to from JT would've resulted in absolutely nothing
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
239
No. All of a sudden I hate their cause.
Protesting to raise awareness is a valid tool, forcing disruption on people's lives and causing financial and emotional damage is not. It's a crime.
People will loose their jobs if this continues.
if mild inconvenience is enough for you to decide you hate their cause it is a) indictment of you more than anything else and b) you deciding you hate their cause will, unfortunately, not stop the protest from continuing!

every single protest of note that has ever changed anything for the better has caused some amount of 'financial and emotional damage', most usually force some amount of 'disruption' and asking for a protest that does not somehow 'disrupt' things and force regular citizens to take notice is not and has never been an effective protest. you decide you 'hate their cause' but what were you feeling about it before your train got cancelled? ignorant at best, indifferent at worst. i certainly doubt you were writing your MPs or circulating what you can do to help their cause. if they went to your door instead and asked you to sign a petition you would, maybe, sign it and then feel kind of good about yourself so that petition could go to parliament unanswered and forgotten.

if you want to solve this sudden problem in your daily life, write to someone who can fix it and maybe get rid of the root cause (read: the pipeline running illegally through unconceded native land). your federal MP absolutely has power to help fix it. they have a voice in parliament, they are obligated to speak for your concerns as someone they are representing.

or you can just say that you don't give a shit about native people and their concerns and a train ride and speculation about what this might do to 'the economy' is far more important to you. i don't think i have anything else to offer you in that event, at least not sympathy.
 

hrœrekr

Member
May 3, 2019
587
if mild inconvenience is enough for you to decide you hate their cause it is a) indictment of you more than anything else and b) you deciding you hate their cause will, unfortunately, not stop the protest from continuing!

every single protest of note that has ever changed anything for the better has caused some amount of 'financial and emotional damage', most usually force some amount of 'disruption' and asking for a protest that does not somehow 'disrupt' things and force regular citizens to take notice is not and has never been an effective protest. you decide you 'hate their cause' but what were you feeling about it before your train got cancelled? ignorant at best, indifferent at worst. i certainly doubt you were writing your MPs or circulating what you can do to help their cause. if they went to your door instead and asked you to sign a petition you would, maybe, sign it and then feel kind of good about yourself so that petition could go to parliament unanswered and forgotten.

if you want to solve this sudden problem in your daily life, write to someone who can fix it and maybe get rid of the root cause (read: the pipeline running illegally through unconceded native land). your federal MP absolutely has power to help fix it. they have a voice in parliament, they are obligated to speak for your concerns as someone they are representing.

or you can just say that you don't give a shit about native people and their concerns and a train ride and speculation about what this might do to 'the economy' is far more important to you. i don't think i have anything else to offer you in that event, at least not sympathy.

Do you think is a valid trade-off?
 

Fuzzy

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,255
Toronto
Until Indigenous tribes have true autonomy over their land then there will never be any reconciliation. You can't tell them "this is your land" then turn around and tell them they have no choice in what other people do within that land. It's either their land or it's not.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
239
Do you think is a valid trade-off?
a protest just ruined your long weekend. that's pretty unfortunate, especially during valentine's day. that sucks but there are ways around it, you can find another date to meet up, even if it's a less special one. you can call, text, see each other over video. go to the movies on the day off or finish some video game. probably not the way you wanted that day to go but you can probably make yourself feel a bit better about it, and then put it behind you.

a pipeline that the indigenous peoples of the wet'suwet'en didn't authorize and will not profit from will affect the people living close to it for years, it might poison the water they drink, it will damage the environment they live with, invite attention from corporations they did not solicit. all the while native people are not offered the same advantages as any non-native citizen in the country are offered, die sooner, are imprisoned more, offered less opportunities to succeed in the colonial state, and even less to live outside of it. if you want to talk about 'financial and emotional damage'. and for a lifetime longer than a long weekend.

i cannot speak for indigenous folks but at least from my perspective seems like a pretty valid trade-off for me.

again, there's one good way you as a citizen can help solve the problem, and it's to write something to your mp and tell them to stop the pipeline and respect the sovereign rights that canada has ostensibly provided the wet'suwet'en to their territory. obviously they are most likely not literally going to be in charge of what to do about the pipeline, but they can speak to the people who do. or you could decide to cheer on the attempts to oust or delegitimize them, which will honestly make no material difference to the protestors than if you'd never heard or cared about them in the first place.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,835
whether or not the nation cares is its' own problem, not the protestors
I'm just saying it can backfire. Part of protests is building more support.

And this issue is confusing as hell as some claim to be for the pipeline and some "hereditary chiefs" are against it.

I guess all that work by the Koch Network indoctrinating indigenous communities has been paying off.
 

gutter_trash

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,139
Montreal
I already backfired,

Trudeau being out of country makes it worse because it pushes back timing to resolve

on Trudeau's return, he may try to talk to them. but they won't listen

This protest is counter-productive and will result in the opposite intended result that the protesters want
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
239
it can backfire, the history is rife with examples in this country. most anyone who set up camp by a train track probably understands that. now of all times, considering the means the government is escalating with.

just don't really think 'it could fail' is a good counter-argument, because really what's the worst outcome for this? the vast majority in the country continues not to care, just as they haven't cared since its' inception. nothing's changed. and again, you can start to develop a plan on what to do next off understanding that degree of apathy and antipathy.

this is the first major protest conducted by a native tribe in decades that's actually put itself out there in a way that the country can't actually put out of sight and out of mind. obviously it's going to inconvenience people, make their life a little harder, make people mad. that emotion is still more thought than they've ever given the plight of native people in this country since grade 8 social studies. and maybe that backfires for many, but there might be just as many who ask themselves why a pipeline matters so much to these people and go from there.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,034
Inconveniencing so called normal people is exactly how you get shit done. Hell, whole countries built their independence on inconveniencing “normal people”. Large scale civil disobedience works. It worked in Egypt (independence movement), it worked in India, and it worked for the Civil Rights movements in the US.
 

hrœrekr

Member
May 3, 2019
587
a protest just ruined your long weekend. that's pretty unfortunate, especially during valentine's day. that sucks but there are ways around it, you can find another date to meet up, even if it's a less special one. you can call, text, see each other over video. go to the movies on the day off or finish some video game. probably not the way you wanted that day to go but you can probably make yourself feel a bit better about it, and then put it behind you.
Specifically on this part, that is very personal:
Is not because things didn't go the way I wanted. Is the way I planned, acted, and worked for, based on how reliable is the public transport system and our law. There are many personal variables in place that can make this a special or unique occasion for me, but most importantly for everyone collectively.
A shutdown in the railway system for a country is huge.

There are many issues in this country that need increased awareness, discussions, and action from the leaders we elect to represent us. But if we force a disruption in our most basic services and laws until we have a perfect solution for every problem we are set to chaos. Which problem is more important? We fail as a country if we surrender to chaos and no problem will be solved at all.

My question on the trade off was about the overall impact, not on me.
What is the expected result? What will happen in practice being realistic?

Finally, do you believe is worth it? This is the trade off I'm talking about.
 
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Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,034
What other means do they really have, other to impact us where it hurts the most?
Let’s take a page from G.W.Bush’s playbook and set up fenced off “free speech zones” where people can protest. That way “protests” can technically still occur, but they’re now out of sight and out of mind enough to not bother normal people.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,835
What other means do they really have, other to impact us where it hurts the most?
Good luck having the average person understand the issue when media is reporting that some are seemingly for the pipeline and hereditary chiefs are against it.

It sounds more like an internal disagreement among the tribe the way it's presented in the MSM.
 
Until Indigenous tribes have true autonomy over their land then there will never be any reconciliation. You can't tell them "this is your land" then turn around and tell them they have no choice in what other people do within that land. It's either their land or it's not.
That's the thing, the land at the center of this dispute (and many others) isn't purely their land. The tribes' control of actual reserve land has been well-established. But the recent developments in indigenous law have created a sort of in-between category of traditional indigenous lands that are owned by the Crown but over which the tribes have an acknowledged legal interest necessitating consultations.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
239
Not on me, but on everyone.
What is the expected result? What will happen in practice?
Do you understand all the impact on the economy and everyone else?

Finally, do you believe is worth it? This is the trade off I'm talking about.
i understand the impact on everyone else because last i checked i am part of 'everyone else', yes. i can't tell you what will happen in practice, but the expected result is already happening. anecdotally speaking, just as i've heard more people complaining about the train shutdown, i have heard more 'regular' people than ever talk about the issue of native sovereignty and reconciliation than i've heard in my entire life. i can't say where this will all go, but hopefully in a better direction for native people than the country has been interested in taking them since we arrived here. and we all have our means at our disposal to try for that better outcome for this.

and yeah. i'm pretty ok with the trade-off. especially if it forces people to wake up and pay real attention. but i also don't think it's my 'trade off' to weigh. what do protestors have to care about the economy when they don't see the benefits of it in the first place, when their sovereign territory is being infringed on for the sake of it? what are we trading that we haven't already taken away?
 

hrœrekr

Member
May 3, 2019
587
Inconveniencing so called normal people is exactly how you get shit done. Hell, whole countries built their independence on inconveniencing “normal people”. Large scale civil disobedience works. It worked in Egypt (independence movement), it worked in India, and it worked for the Civil Rights movements in the US.
Strongly disagree. We live n a free and democratic society.
We just had a federal election and the pipeline was a known issue at that time.
Chaos don't bring any benefit. It only hurts people, specially the more vulnerable. There are mechanisms to move our society forward without breaking it.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
239
i feel like the more you talk about this the more you just solidify the case for why the train shutdown had to happen

we had a federal election, the pipeline was a known issue at the time. native concerns were brushed aside, the liberal platform pointedly ignored it except to talk about implementing some sort of kickback for communities affected by the pipeline. legal challenges were made and the government fought them. people did not blink either way. it seems to me the 'more convenient' avenues have been exhausted. only now are people actually talking about the issue, taking sides, maybe actually learning why this pipeline is a problem for so many.

also sincere question but who do you really count as 'more vulnerable' than the indigenous, considering how flagrantly any of the supposed powers they are guaranteed are disrespected and bulldozed over when they're inconvenient to the crown.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
239
they obviously are not, but when the issue encompasses a broader issue around the federal (and provincial) government and a persistent lack of commitment around (and often contempt for) reconciliation, respecting native land and their nominal sovereignty, and the consistent pattern that's formed around when the government's agenda runs headfirst into that nominal sovereignty (happening now in wet'suwet'en territory and countless times before now), i don't think i'm pushing things too much speaking about things in less specific terms and fitting this into another link in a much longer chain of colonial violence and what has to be done in order to see something be done about it.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,034
Strongly disagree. We live n a free and democratic society.
We just had a federal election and the pipeline was a known issue at that time.
Chaos don't bring any benefit. It only hurts people, specially the more vulnerable. There are mechanisms to move our society forward without breaking it.
How do you move a society built upon the destruction and systemic oppression of indigenous people forward, when all the mechanism of power are held by those who directly benefit from this system? We have an avid indigenous hater in John A. McDonald on our money as well as having monuments all across the country, and yet people would lose their fucking minds if even the suggestion of removing these things honouring him is brought up.

“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense,” Macdonald told the House of Commons in 1882.

It’s one of the most damning quotations ever attributed to Macdonald. And yet, in the parliament record it’s immediately followed by an even more damning comment as the Liberal opposition benches accuse Macdonald of not starving Indians enough.

“No doubt the Indians will bear a great degree of starvation before they will work, and so long as they are certain the Government will come to their aid they will not do much for themselves,” said David Mills, who had served as minister of the interior under the Liberal government of Alexander Mackenzie.

This was clearly an Ottawa that had no time for the rights and culture of what they would have called “savage” nations. Even in that context, over his career Macdonald would pursue an Indigenous policy so draconian that even his contemporaries would come to accuse him of going beyond the pale.

“Macdonald basically had Indigenous people locked down so tightly that they became irrelevant after 1885,” said James Daschuk, the author of the bestseller Clearing the Plains, from which many of the primary sources quoted in this article were obtained.
Macdonald did not cause the famine. Nor did he draft the Indian Act or most of the West’s treaties, which had been created under the prior Liberal government.

But Macdonald would capitalize on prairies wracked with famine. His Conservatives had returned to office with an ambitious “National Policy” that included quickly driving a railroad to the Pacific.

To do this, Macdonald effectively gave himself near-autocratic control of the prairies, including supervision of Indian affairs and the Northwest Mounted Police

“Indian matters … form so great a portion of the general policy of the Government that I think it necessary for the Prime Minister, whoever he may be, to have that in his own hands.” Macdonald wrote in 1881.
In government archives, Daschuk found ample primary evidence showing that Macdonald’s Indian agents explicitly withheld food in order to drive bands onto reserve and out of the way of the railroad. A Liberal MP at the time even called it “a policy of submission shaped by a policy of starvation.”

Oh look at how far we’ve moved our society forward in the past 130 years. Our government doesn’t starve indigenous people out when it wants to forcefully build commercial infrastructure on their lands anymore. It still sends mounted police to do their dirty work though. Maybe in another 130 years we will take another baby step forward.
 
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Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,608
Protests without disruption = good press.
Change received for good press =

Canada can get serious or it can continue its present course of speaking out of two sides of its mouth on the crises of reconciliation and climate.
 
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Pomerlaw

Member
Feb 25, 2018
4,021
Fuck off Scheer.

This is a complicated issue, since even in the community, there is no conscensus.

But still... Fuck off Scheer.
 

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
346
Fuck off idiots in this thread bitching about "inconvenience" and "oh no it's illegal". I thought people here would be better than the racists I see on facebook but I guess not.

All the land we live on is their land. Us white people just swept in, did some genocide and cultural erasure, and then have the audacity to get upset when an oppressed people protest against something running through the small bits of their land that we deigned to let them keep officially.

There's no going back now to what it should have been, but if this is reconciliation it's a fucking joke.
If it's an internal issue then let them sort it out internally, but until they do they deserve to protest however they want.

I've had enough talking about "decorum" and hand-wringing.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,880
"Only protest over in this corner where I can easily ignore you."
 
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Derachi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,698
Hello, friends! Let's say I am a Canadian citizen who very rarely follows our national news. Can someone give me a short explanation as to what the protests are over? Or if there's already an explanation post, can someone threadmark it?
 
Oct 25, 2017
859
Protests without disruption = good press.
Change received for good press =

Canada can get serious or it can continue its present course of speaking out of two sides of its mouth on the crises of reconciliation and climate.
This. It's their right to protest. We should be supporting them not bitching about traffic ffs.

And fuck Sheer as usual.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,009
It's even worse when you take into account that Scheer is going to rerun again and endlessly win with a big fat pension paid by tax payers because his riding will vote for anything conservative no matter what he does or says.

Who has privileges again?
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,781
This Rail shutdown is fucking me.
Booked a train way in advance so I could afford the ticket to reunite with my SO for Valentines Day and the long weekend. Now is cancelled, I can't afford flights and even bus tickets are outrageous (if you find a seat).

What is the purpose of this? Piss off people that need to work, and see their family and loved ones? What do normal people in Ontario have to do with this problem? How's forcing more cars on the road is going to help? I'm not even mentioning the impact on the economy that will hurt everyone.
That's the point. It's to get your attention.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,314
Toronto
Protests without disruption = good press.
Change received for good press =

Canada can get serious or it can continue its present course of speaking out of two sides of its mouth on the crises of reconciliation and climate.
Its not even that. If there isn't disruption, then the press straight up does not care. Peaceful Protests don't sell views.
 
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