• Introducing Image Options for ResetEra 2.0! Check the left side navigation bar to show or hide images, avatars, covers, and embedded media. More details at the link.
  • Community Spotlight sign-ups are open once again for both Gaming and EtcetEra Hangout threads! If you want to shine a spotlight on your community, please register now.

Canada PoliERA |OT| Two Years of Sunny Days? That’s Scheer Madness!

Oct 26, 2017
11,695
PR loses in BC and it's not even fucking close.


The NDP promised during the election to put the idea to a vote and campaign in its favour. They ran a positive campaign, while the BC Liberals, which saw PR as an existential threat to their big tent party campaigned very hard and negative and spread shit tons of FUD. In the end the YES side got smoked, and you can see from the results that the vote was highly politicized with Liberal ridings voting heavily in favour of FPTP. Liberal supporters likely saw the last close election loss as a fluke so there's no way they'd ditch FPTP which up to this point had given them 16 years in power.

Ultimately the NDP/Green supporters of PR didn't get the vote out because support for PR was soft. I wonder if in a weird way the stability and success of the NDP/Green minority government in a way showed to even their supporters that the status quo is fine. I don't think BC will be able to get a PR success until there's a long string of failed minority governments and odd results.
Wait...Justin McElroy?
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,179
Sigh. The march towards the inevitable PC majority-by-minority government continues. Thanks again Trudeau for lying about electoral reform.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,179
Okay you just contradicted yourself in that post
No I didn't. Yes, I know provincial and federal are separate. This does not change the fact that Trudeau could have started the change in electoral systems in Canada. No, I am not blaming him for the results of the vote in BC.

You good now?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,807
Sigh. The march towards the inevitable PC majority-by-minority government continues. Thanks again Trudeau for lying about electoral reform.
This makes no sense. This is like Canada’s version of Thanks Obama.

BC lost out on electoral reform because BC residents made that decision.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,179
This makes no sense. This is like Canada’s version of Thanks Obama.

BC lost out on electoral reform because BC residents made that decision.
Again - not blaming trudeau for BC. I blame Trudeau for not following through on the promise he made back during his election campaign.

They are linked not by trudeau, but by the story of failure that is electoral reform in Canada.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,807
Again - not blaming trudeau for BC. I blame Trudeau for not following through on the promise he made back during his election campaign.

They are linked not by trudeau, but by the story of failure that is electoral reform in Canada.
London Ontario just held heir first municipal election election using ranked ballots. Aren’t you happy for them?
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,179
London Ontario just held heir first municipal election election using ranked ballots. Aren’t you happy for them?
Sure - some change is better than none I suppose. If it helps lead to people not being so afraid of changing the current mess of a system, that would be nice. At least then it becomes a debate between which alternative will work best.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
Edmonton
No, we should just go full Monarchist and let them have all the power!
I mean government employees already swear an oath to the Queen anyway. Just take it that extra step!


Honestly I don't think it'd be any worse than what we have now. lol
Oh stop it lol. I’d be ok with the monarchy (so the GG) being given an official position of being the people’s voice in parliament. So when say Trudeau does (or in this case doesn’t) something that’s detrimental to most Canadians but is good for his party, there’s someone neutral in Parliament calling his ass out and making him explain why he choose to do what he did.

But absolute monarchy? Lol no.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,298
Oh stop it lol. I’d be ok with the monarchy (so the GG) being given an official position of being the people’s voice in parliament. So when say Trudeau does (or in this case doesn’t) something that’s detrimental to most Canadians but is good for his party, there’s someone neutral in Parliament calling his ass out and making him explain why he choose to do what he did.

But absolute monarchy? Lol no.
I mean right now the GG and the Queen just read throne speeches and pretend to represent Canada when people visit and the PM is busy. They have no power and are not allowed to be political. People in the UK hate Charles because he apparently has opinions. :p

Sure I'm joking, but at this point I feel like Meghan would probably do a better job than any of the federal leaders at running the country.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,261
Toronto
London Ontario just held heir first municipal election election using ranked ballots. Aren’t you happy for them?
London is a trailblazer so far. Also both Kingston and Cambridge held referendums on switching to IRV. In fact, Kingston voted in favour of the change and yesterday directed their Municipal Staff to get everything setup and in place for the next election. Also the new Cambridge City Council is thinking about accepting their referendum despite not getting 50% turnout. So now we're not too worried about our Municipalities switching to a system that is far better for them than FPTP. At which point, we mix this with QuebecTBD and PEIRound Deux, and the movement is still looking good, even if it hit a setback with BC.

Then back to here in Ontario, once Doug Ford is done with, the movement will flare up again. And in a couple election cycles of more and more municipalities switching to Ranked Ballots, we'll hit a point where the Fear Mongering and talking points of "IT'Z TOO FACKING COMPLICATED!!?!?!?" won't work; and Provincially we'll have a Referendum on Ranked or STV.

So yeah, dominos have already begun to fall. The only question is how fast, and in which direction.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
5,298
I think birthright rule is about as fair as FPTP so it's a toss up to me.

I mean in both America and Canada, we've already seen political families essentially be de facto royalty.
 
Oct 25, 2017
838
I think for a PR referendum to succeed there needs to be a clear and recent sign that FPTP is a dysfunctional system.

When people in BC first started wondering if FPTP was a broken system it was because there was two elections in a row with bizarre outcomes.

In 1996 the BC Liberals bested the NDP by 2.37% of the popular vote, but LOST with the BC NDP getting a Majority government by getting the most amount of seats.

Then in 2001 the NDP did disastrously bad due to a series of scandals and only got 21% of the vote to the Liberals' 57%.The outcome in seats however was highly distorted with the Liberals winning 77 seats and the NDP 2. The NDP didn't even meet the cutoff for official party status and the vindictive Liberals denied them an exception, and governed the province basically without opposition for four years.

In the PR referendum that followed a majority supported PR, but not enough to meet the 60% threshold the Liberal party set. After the recent distorted election outcomes it's not surprising to see that people wanted to see changes. In contrast the last few elections in BC have had more reasonable and balanced outcomes and BC's economy is the best in Canada, so all of that favours the status quo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,261
Toronto
Let's...not have a monarchy of any kind in Canada.

Also let's get Liz off of our 20$ bill.
I'm with Caz. Democracy is fine. Our problems with it only come from a couple key issues.

1. Voter Participation
2. Progressive Parties being too "shy" and letting Regressive take the center stage and offer "easy solutions"
3. Progressive Voters not holding Centralists to account

Fix those three and our downward spiral will be fixed overnight.

People are just scared, and they are making absolutely stupid decisions because of it because Progressives sit back and think "Nobody could be that stupid" in response to Regressives standing up and saying something that sounds easy.

I think for a PR referendum to succeed there needs to be a clear and recent sign that FPTP is a dysfunctional system.

When people in BC first started wondering if FPTP was a broken system it was because there was two elections in a row with bizarre outcomes.

In 1996 the BC Liberals bested the NDP by 2.37% of the popular vote, but LOST with the BC NDP getting a Majority government by getting the most amount of seats.

Then in 2001 the NDP did disastrously bad due to a series of scandals and only got 21% of the vote to the Liberals' 57%.The outcome in seats however was highly distorted with the Liberals winning 77 seats and the NDP 2. The NDP didn't even meet the cutoff for official party status and the vindictive Liberals denied them an exception, and governed the province basically without opposition for four years.

In the PR referendum that followed a majority supported PR, but not enough to meet the 60% threshold the Liberal party set. After the recent distorted election outcomes it's not surprising to see that people wanted to see changes. In contrast the last few elections in BC have had more reasonable and balanced outcomes and BC's economy is the best in Canada, so all of that favours the status quo.
Even so. When you take a step back, it's hard to say that the movement is on its death throws. Not yet at-least. Maybe PR support is going to step back and lick its wounds, but it'll come back every time there is an election gone fucky.

I mean, think about it.

- Municipalities in Ontario are starting to swap to Ranked Ballots. We got 2 Confirmed switches in two major cities, a third potential switch, and a bunch of municipalities which said they are curious about it now that they saw the sky didn't fall in London.
- If Collard follows through in Quebec, that'll be our first PR system in Canada and we'll be able to point to the sky not falling in future referendums.
- In PEI, we got the double whammy opportunity of the Second PR Referendum confirming the first, or the potential Green Government which will want to bring it in.

Even if PEI and Quebec don't follow through, we already have Municipalities in Ontario planting the seed of Ranked Ballots, and in a couple years of acceptable governments there, we'll start seeing support in Ontario for Ranked Ballots on the Provincial Level. Trudeau may very well get his wish of Ranked Ballots Federally, after he is gone that is. And once Ranked Ballots are in place, it is incredibly easy to then push STV because at that point, all we need to talk about is "Making the ranks you know and have used for a couple elections now mean more" ; instead of trying to inform people of how 1-2-3 works, on top of PR.

The only question now is how fast things are going to happen and what flavour they take. If as reformists we have to take the route of doing it incremental instead of all at once; so be it.

And of course, we also can not forget that over the past Decade, Elections in this country and worldwide have started to become more polarized. Thats not something that is going to be solved overnight. Under FPTP things will get more fucky and we can say that for a fact. Those incidents that caused people to want reform to begin with are going to be more frequent, and with it there will be more chances to shove it in peoples faces that this needs to be done.

Things are looking up, even if at the small picture they are down.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
838
Ughhhhh no. Ranked ballots provincially or federally would be worse than we have right now. It's a more complex variant of FPTP.

Makes sense for an election in a ward system but it doesn't make sense for anything else.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,738
Canada
If Trudeau sees his party’s numbers free fallling, I hope he does the right thing and implement voter reform. Don’t condemn us to fucking Conservative rule because you favour party over country.
I'm snickering really really hard right now.

It's a shame, but we figured this would be the case. What we need to learn is that when our opponents are willing to put Nazi's on Television, we need to fight back, raise a huge stink and call them the fuck out on it. If at anytime in the future someone complains about how the government is acting, we need to step right the fuck up and rub their noses in this result. If a Millennial bitches and moans that nothing ever changes, we need to sit them the fuck down and tell them that they had a chance to fix it and they shit the fucking bed.

But yeah, I called it. The moment ads with Nazis marching around came on TV, it was over. And now, we turn our eyes back to Quebec and PEI. If coulaird follows through we'll have an example to shove in the face of all the fearmongers; and if the reports of a potential Green Government in PEI are to be believed, we might have a second example in the works; depending on how that second referendum goes.

In other news, I wouldn't be surprised if the NDP/Green Coalition finds itself on shaky grounds now considering this was the main thing that held them together.
Sad thing is that politics is one of the few arenas where people don't want to be overly confrontational unless they're a conservative, so holding feet to the fire seems like an unlikely outcome, to be blunt. It should happen, but it won't.

I'll keep saying it til I'm out of breath, instead of operating as though the vague interests of "fairness" are inherently understood to resolve the qualms voters have with governments, PR needs to campaign on the premise of targeting specific problems like:
  • majority rule by parties you hate who won't work across the aisle and further polarize the nation (would work really well for conservatives who hate Trudeau right now)
  • lack of more/better options for MPs, including more independent options
  • the spoiler effect (read: vote-splitting), which the CPC will have to wrangle with next election for the first time in over a decade
  • big-tent parties who are too homogenous to properly represent the people who vote for them
It's a page ripped right out of the conservative playbook and I ripped it out of that playbook because it works: talk up mitigating or relieving the symptoms, don't lead with how to cure to the disease.

It's why New Zealand succeeded in getting PR and every attempt Canada has tried has failed. We're more interested in talking about the "fairness" angle and how the voting systems work (the cure to the disease) than what actually bothers the voter and what best solves the problem (symptom relief), while NZ did it the other way around.

Until PR advocates can get their heads out of their own assholes and see that they've gone about it all wrong, this will keep happening.

North battleford is an absolute shit hole. Lots of areas with little to be proud of though. Especially Alberta.
Having been there, I agree, North Battleford is indeed a shithole. But Prince Albert has collectively said "hold my beer" and will likely take the crown as Saskatchewan's worst municipality within 5 years.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,831
I hope not. I'm ready for Queen Kate or Queen Meghan :P
I realize Liz is in her 90s but the idea of her dying seems so strange. I half expect her to claim the title of oldest living person before she goes.

Having been there, I agree, North Battleford is indeed a shithole. But Prince Albert has collectively said "hold my beer" and will likely take the crown as Saskatchewan's worst municipality within 5 years.
I’ve worked in N.B. before. Pretty dirty place. Can’t imagine thinking “hey; buying a house here sounds like a good idea”. Just working there briefly was bad. Now I try not to even stop for gas there.

P.A. is next level disgusting though and has been a rough place for as long as I can remember. As a kid it seemed dirty but not unsafe because I was with my parents any time I was there. As an adult it’s filthier than I remembered and I have no intention of going back. Certainly wouldn’t walk around there at night.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,738
Canada
I don't get the Liz hate.

She is probably the best since Victoria and the most respectful towards the Commonwealth
Because whether they want to say it or not, some people want Canada to be more like America or take offence to the Crown purely because of it being a symbol of colonialism (which is more a common take, rightfully, among First Nations). It's not necessarily about Elizabeth herself, it's about the monarchy which she happens to be the head of right now.
 
I realize Liz is in her 90s but the idea of her dying seems so strange. I half expect her to claim the title of oldest living person before she goes.


I’ve worked in N.B. before. Pretty dirty place. Can’t imagine thinking “hey; buying a house here sounds like a good idea”. Just working there briefly was bad. Now I try not to even stop for gas there.

P.A. is next level disgusting though and has been a rough place for as long as I can remember. As a kid it seemed dirty but not unsafe because I was with my parents any time I was there. As an adult it’s filthier than I remembered and I have no intention of going back. Certainly wouldn’t walk around there at night.
I remember a video being shown around my school of two drug addicts injecting on a sidewalk in P.A. and throwing the used needles over their shoulders. That's basically Prince Albert in a nutshell.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,738
Canada
I remember a video being shown around my school of two drug addicts injecting on a sidewalk in P.A. and throwing the used needles over their shoulders. That's basically Prince Albert in a nutshell.
Nah, you're missing the prelude where they likely had sex with dirty old men or committed a really lazy B&E to pay for what's in that needle. THAT is PA in a nutshell.
 
OP
OP
Caz

Caz

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,258
Canada
Your definition of "some" is "all"? Huh, that's awkward. Even more awkward is the fact that you're acting like that's all I said in my post. Huh.
I think most people who frequent this thread/site would be of the mindset that we do not want Canada to be more like our southern neighbours. That aside, it's rather silly to assume that those who would want Canada to be more like "Murica" would do so by opposing the role of the monarchy in government instead of the whole "taxation without representation (if you're white)/freedom" thing.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
5,298
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-andrew-scheer-senate-partisan-peter-harder-1.4951451

Another reminder that our Senate is just a series of hacked together solutions put together by politicians over time and is basically all bullshit.

I really wish Canada’s rich white politicians and the same foresight as Australia’s rich white politicians, but I assume we’re going to have like dozens of new Tory senators, probably through Senate expansion, when Scheer wins in order to stack the vote back in his favour.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,354
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-2.html#h-5

The Senate
Number of Senators
21.
The Senate shall, subject to the Provisions of this Act, consist of One Hundred and five Members, who shall be styled Senators. (11)

Representation of Provinces in Senate
22.
In relation to the Constitution of the Senate Canada shall be deemed to consist of Four Divisions:

  • 1.
    Ontario;
  • 2.
    Quebec;
  • 3.
    The Maritime Provinces, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island;
  • 4.
    The Western Provinces of Manitoba, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, and Alberta;
which Four Divisions shall (subject to the Provisions of this Act) be equally represented in the Senate as follows: Ontario by twenty-four senators; Quebec by twenty-four senators; the Maritime Provinces and Prince Edward Island by twenty-four senators, ten thereof representing Nova Scotia, ten thereof representing New Brunswick, and four thereof representing Prince Edward Island; the Western Provinces by twenty-four senators, six thereof representing Manitoba, six thereof representing British Columbia, six thereof representing Saskatchewan, and six thereof representing Alberta; Newfoundland shall be entitled to be represented in the Senate by six members; the Yukon Territory, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut shall be entitled to be represented in the Senate by one member each.

In the Case of Quebec each of the Twenty-four Senators representing that Province shall be appointed for One of the Twenty-four Electoral Divisions of Lower Canada specified in Schedule A. to Chapter One of the Consolidated Statutes of Canada. (12)

...

Addition of Senators in certain cases
26.
If at any Time on the Recommendation of the Governor General the Queen thinks fit to direct that Four or Eight Members be added to the Senate, the Governor General may by Summons to Four or Eight qualified Persons (as the Case may be), representing equally the Four Divisions of Canada, add to the Senate accordingly. (15)

Reduction of Senate to normal Number
27.
In case of such Addition being at any Time made, the Governor General shall not summon any Person to the Senate, except on a further like Direction by the Queen on the like Recommendation, to represent one of the Four Divisions until such Division is represented by Twenty-four Senators and no more. (16)

Maximum Number of Senators
28.
The Number of Senators shall not at any Time exceed One Hundred and thirteen. (17)
There can never be more than 113 Senators without a constitutional amendment.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,738
Canada
I think most people who frequent this thread/site would be of the mindset that we do not want Canada to be more like our southern neighbours. That aside, it's rather silly to assume that those who would want Canada to be more like "Murica" would do so by opposing the role of the monarchy in government instead of the whole "taxation without representation (if you're white)/freedom" thing.
Probably because there's not much of a lack of representation anymore, since that issue was dealt with in 1982, by the PM most of the people who would go on about "taxation without representation" in this country love to hate. The only ones who can really say they suffer from taxation without representation at this point are permanent residents who can't vote. But also, who is more likely to complain about "taxation without representation" than a conservative and (again, rightfully) the First Nations people I already mentioned that was ignored?

And while I can see that there are good reasons to be opposed to the monarchy's presence in Canadian politics (which, again, I already mentioned one and it was completely ignored), it's not controversial to say that the majority of people opposed to the monarchy outside of that reason and a much smaller handful of others are conservative voters, and I'd say it's equally uncontroversial to say that they would like us to be more like our southern neighbours, considering the CPC's current ties to Rebel Media, the calls from their voters to empower the provinces even more to make our country more like a US republic and the party that just shot off from the CPC that has held rallies featuring people wearing "Make Canada Great Again" caps without irony.