Canada PoliERA |OT| Two Years of Sunny Days? That’s Scheer Madness!

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,265
fucking lol at the Quebec media falling in line to defend their shit corporate baby, spreading FUD about lost jobs. No jobs are going to be lost here. There will be plenty of jobs for SNC Lavalin engineers at other engineering companies that didn't bribe 3rd world dictators.
I just want to say I in no way care or defend SNC, it has no bearing on my life. But..

To say that the engineers can just "find another job" is disingenuous at best. This matter is more nuanced than people think. When Nortel went belly up those engineers weren't absorbed into the economy overnight. And when GM layed off all those Oshawa workers, there were no signs that any other auto firms snatching them up. Those jobs are gone and it's likely permanent. And that's not to mention a decades worth of legal battles when pension liabilities come into play.

And it's not just Quebec that has a dog in this race. SNC employs over 3000 people in Ontario (and other spread around the country). Isn't it funny how Doug Ford has stayed mum on this? He hates trudeau, but has chosen not to attack him on this file.

Does SNC deserve to get punished? Yes. But do the employees (current and former) have an escape hatch? Most likely no. The fallout of SNC declaring bankrupt and laying off its employees would a Nortel level atom bomb that nobody would want to live through.
 

Zekes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,899
Fuck Christie Clark and that shit stain of a party. Fuck them all. Sold every one of us out.
Why am I not surprised

Also I just got a mobile ad over on Gaming side from the Alberta government asking for me to “show my support for the Trans Mountain Pipeline”
 
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djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,265
Why am I not surprised

Also I just got a mobile ad over on Gaming side from the Alberta government asking for me to “show my support for the Trans Mountain Pipeline
It’s such a side show with the oil patch industry. They have the most subsidies of any industry just short of supply management and yet they feel “left out.”. As if the country doesn’t know about their stupid pipelines already.

And now we have a convoy of them heading into Ottawa next week. Entitled fucks they are.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,032
I just want to say I in no way care or defend SNC, it has no bearing on my life. But..

To say that the engineers can just "find another job" is disingenuous at best. This matter is more nuanced than people think. When Nortel went belly up those engineers weren't absorbed into the economy overnight. And when GM layed off all those Oshawa workers, there were no signs that any other auto firms snatching them up. Those jobs are gone and it's likely permanent. And that's not to mention a decades worth of legal battles when pension liabilities come into play.

And it's not just Quebec that has a dog in this race. SNC employs over 3000 people in Ontario (and other spread around the country). Isn't it funny how Doug Ford has stayed mum on this? He hates trudeau, but has chosen not to attack him on this file.

Does SNC deserve to get punished? Yes. But do the employees (current and former) have an escape hatch? Most likely no. The fallout of SNC declaring bankrupt and laying off its employees would a Nortel level atom bomb that nobody would want to live through.
I'm honestly not trying to be flippant here, losing a job always sucks and it's traumatic, I know because I've been at a company that lost a big contract and was forced to lay off a hundred or so people, me included. That being said, engineering and project management jobs are much more portable skills than manufacturing. Oshawa car builders can't decide the next day to start up their own factory and build their own cars, but ex-SNC Lavalin engineers could kickstart their own engineering firms. QC politicians should be thinking ahead to be thinking how they can make access to startup funds even easier to help this along.

I'm ok with an outcome by which SNC Lavalin is a shell of its previous self, but there exists a few new spinoff engineering companies created by ex-SNC Lavalin folks. If SNC Lavalin is unable to bid on Canadian contracts for 10 years, that opens up huge opportunities for other Canadian engineering companies, both new and existing to hire up to fulfill those contracts.
 

gutter_trash

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,599
Montreal
ugh, Trudeau is terrible on messaging.

this is getting worse day by day. I know he is a puppet Prime Minister but now it is showing way too much.

Liberals need to fix this quick because this won't last
 

gutter_trash

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,599
Montreal
you would expect better acting from a drama teacher

the lines he recited today make no fuckin' sense "if it wasn't for Brison leaving, we would have done a cabinet shuffle... "

fuck me
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,032
Trudeau Says Fears of Job Losses Drove Talks About SNC-Lavalin
Justin Trudeau’s government weighed the merits of ending a criminal case against SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. in part to avoid Canadian job losses, the prime minister said.

“As a government, we take very seriously our responsibility of standing up for jobs, of protecting jobs, of growing the economy, of making sure there are good jobs right across the country -- as there are with SNC-Lavalin,” Trudeau said at a press conference Friday in Ottawa. “But as we do that, we always need to make sure we’re standing up for the rule of law and protecting the independence of our justice system.”
From the criminal code...

PART XXII.1
Remediation Agreements

...

Factors not to consider

(3) Despite paragraph (2)(i), if the organization is alleged to have committed an offence under section 3 or 4 of the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, the prosecutor must not consider the national economic interest, the potential effect on relations with a state other than Canada or the identity of the organization or individual involved.
lmao
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,265
LOL, how hard is it to stick with a consistent message. His advisors are pure trash. Every day it's something new.

What can i realisticly expect with a PC government in terms of non fear mongering changes?
I second on looking at what is happening in Ontario. Cuts to every social program imaginable. Pricing on carbon is out the window. Even Harper had to concede on a few files. Not this time, they have no reason to hold back. Scheer will have Kenny and Ford as allies.

To give you an idea, by next year around this time nearly every province that matters will be under a conservative/conservative leaning government. All you're left with the NDP in BC, a couple of atlantic provinces maybe? Maybe the territories?

Not even cannabis is safe, though it's a bit of a money maker so i dunno about that.
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
I guess I will still vote for LPC. But man, what the fuck. I shouldn't be forced into this position. Fuck JT for not bringing electoral reform. if the CPC wins its entirely on the LPC
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,265

Jives with this earlier.


The funny thing is that a lot of the talking points that are being raised now by the PM have actually been raised earlier by other MPs (also discussed in this weeks OPPO podcast).

But because its so late in the game it feels like the PMO is just throwing everything into the mix so the messaging isn't coherent and they're allowing the media to drive the narrative.
 

Roke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,137
Canada
Even with Brison stepping down, isn't Veteran Affairs an easier position to fill than Justice Minister/Attorney General given the latter basically has to have a legal background?

You had Kent Hehr in that ministry, by the standard you've set pretty much any warm body would do. I'm not seeing why you would need to shuffle your justice minister to fill that hole.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,668
Toronto
I guess I will still vote for LPC. But man, what the fuck. I shouldn't be forced into this position. Fuck JT for not bringing electoral reform. if the CPC wins its entirely on the LPC
But you don't understand! People don't care about Electoral Reform. They don't specifically know the term and ask for it by name! And they definitely don't talk about the definition of what Electoral Reform would accomplish when they complain about our governments and electoral system... and when they do, they definitely don't want extremists in power! Are you for extremism? Why are you all for Electoral Reform if it will be bad for the country! Don't you know that the 90%+ of democratic nations in the world that use this system are all doing perfectly fine on fire and falling apart at the seams, their populaces enslaved by extremists!

But don't worry! Your good pals in the Collective Liberal-Conservative Parties of Canada will make sure you are informed of these facts, and we will advertise tooth and nail of the horrors of Electoral Reform because we know that if it gets enacted, we won't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning absolute power the country will be giving up its power to extremists who only want to bring communism to our great nation.

*ahem* At least we have Federally PEI BC Quebec and PEI to look forward to!
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,265
Even with Brison stepping down, isn't Veteran Affairs an easier position to fill than Justice Minister/Attorney General given the latter basically has to have a legal background?

You had Kent Hehr in that ministry, by the standard you've set pretty much any warm body would do. I'm not seeing why you would need to shuffle your justice minister to fill that hole.
Well...

https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/all-i-want-for-christmas-is-a-new-justice-minister/
Go to 4:08. Remember this was posted on December 18, well before this debacle.

And also...

https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/22-the-political-parties-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-week/
Go to 10:00 minute mark. Or when Gen starts setting up Justin.

There is truth to the rumour that JWR was a terrible minister. But the PM using this as an escape hatch was poorly executed.

JWR is the Amy Kobluchar of this government. It was known around the halls of parliament of how bad she was performing but never really made it into the public sphere.
 

Roke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,137
Canada
Well...

https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/all-i-want-for-christmas-is-a-new-justice-minister/
Go to 4:08. Remember this was posted on December 18, well before this debacle.

And also...

https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/22-the-political-parties-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-week/
Go to 10:00 minute mark. Or when Gen starts setting up Justin.

There is truth to the rumour that JWR was a terrible minister. But the PM using this as an escape hatch was poorly executed.
I agree she was a bad justice minister (the impaired driving bill may as well have come from the Harper government, but Trudeau having his talking point being "she'd still be justice minister if not for Brison leaving" indicates that wasn't a problem for him and she could still continue being a poor justice minister (though maybe decent Attorney General).

But I know, taking the government at their word is a mistake. The only thing they're good at communicating is vague platitudes that their actions don't live up to.
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,265
I agree she was a bad justice minister (the impaired driving bill may as well have come from the Harper government, but Trudeau having his talking point being "she'd still be justice minister if not for Brison leaving" indicates that wasn't a problem for him and she could still continue being a poor justice minister (though maybe decent Attorney General).

But I know, taking the government at their word is a mistake. The only thing they're good at communicating is vague platitudes that their actions don't live up to.
LOL, i learned never to take what government says at face value. There's just so much wrangling going on. As long as my services are maintained or enhanced i'm good.


What are we going to do. Seriously. This is freaking me out.
The older I get the less I begin to care.

 
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djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,265
I mean, we have to care at least a bit :(
Yah, you know funny thing is. I'm in that weird demographic where I don't actually tap into government services that much nor am I affected by the various social tension other than being a visible minority. By all means I SHOULD be a conservative, less taxes for me? Fine. Gays can't marry, I'm straight. Ban abortions? I'm male. climate change? I'll manage.

But it goes against everything I was raised on. To help others who don't have the same opportunity as you. And being an immigrant refugee myself I know what it's like to be welcomed by this country.

But it's an up hill slog trying to defend those Canadian values from people who want to own the libs or one issue voters. And frankly, I'm tired. Especially after that Ontario election.
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
Yah, you know funny thing is. I'm in that weird demographic where I don't actually tap into government services that much nor am I affected by the various social tension other than being a visible minority. By all means I SHOULD be a conservative, less taxes for me? Fine. Gays can't marry, I'm straight. Ban abortions? I'm male. climate change? I'll manage.

But it goes against everything I was raised on. To help others who don't have the same opportunity as you. And being an immigrant refugee myself I know what it's like to be welcomed by this country.

But it's an up hill slog trying to defend those Canadian values from people who want to own the libs or one issue voters. And frankly, I'm tired. Especially after that Ontario election.
I get it. Totally. I also don’t have anything that benefits or limits me immediately, other than health care, but for everyone else, I care a lot. :S

I just want everyone to be safe and cared for and happy, and while the liberals aren’t doing well at it right now, “everyone safe, cared for, happy” is utterly impossible with a con government, so... :(

And yeah...the Ontario election tired me out a lot, and I’m in BC. Haha. :(
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,265
I get it. Totally. I also don’t have anything that benefits or limits me immediately, other than health care, but for everyone else, I care a lot. :S

I just want everyone to be safe and cared for and happy, and while the liberals aren’t doing well at it right now, “everyone safe, cared for, happy” is utterly impossible with a con government, so... :(

And yeah...the Ontario election tired me out a lot, and I’m in BC. Haha. :(
Haha, that June election was just something. I'm having a bit of schadenfreude of those people that voted for him by there are still family members that i have that rely on government services so the fight never ends.
 
Oct 25, 2017
781
It's easy not care when you're not affected by whatever programs/services these lunatics will cut once they get in. Those of us on disability or in poverty could well be homeless.

Unfortunately ppl are just as dumb up here as in merica and will gladly vote in the cons to show the libs so they can then in turn come back to play savior as Killerrin has mentioned.

All of which could have been avoided if dipshit Justin had just kept his fucking promises.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,668
Toronto
But it's an up hill slog trying to defend those Canadian values from people who want to own the libs or one issue voters. And frankly, I'm tired. Especially after that Ontario election.
I honestly just turned to Sarcasm. It helps in keeping my sanity in the face of the Ontario stuff. Just realizing that people will vote against their best interests whether we want them to or not, so I might has well have some fun and call out their hypocrisy and gut feelings

Unfortunately ppl are just as dumb up here as in merica and will gladly vote in the cons to show the libs so they can then in turn come back to play savior as Killerrin has mentioned.
No worries, I already got a picture of an OLP branded White Horse edited and uploaded to my imgur, ready for the 2022 Ontario Election. 👍

In the meantime. I just try to stay hopeful that in this ever polarizing and high communication/information environment. People will eventually get sick and tired of what they are seeing going on across all sides of the political spectrum. And maybe, just maybe that will transform into actual, meaningful change to the way our government works. Because the only alternative to that is admitting that everything in society is going straight to hell. And that is too depressing of a thing to think about.

And the first step of that is keeping up hope that eventually one region in this country will adopt Meaningful Electoral Reform in some way, shape or form. And that when what we all know to be true of it both being a major change and shakeup, while also not being as big of a deal or as dangerous as its opponents put it out to be; then we will see the rest of the regions and ultimately federally follow suit. Just got to keep up that optimism.
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
And the first step of that is keeping up hope that eventually one region in this country will adopt Meaningful Electoral Reform in some way, shape or form. And that when what we all know to be true of it both being a major change and shakeup, while also not being as big of a deal or as dangerous as its opponents put it out to be; then we will see the rest of the regions and ultimately federally follow suit. Just got to keep up that optimism.
I tried :( I got as many people I knew in BC to vote in the referendum, even my lazy-voting parents.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,668
Toronto
I tried :( I got as many people I knew in BC to vote in the referendum, even my lazy-voting parents.
It's only a setback. On the bright side. Plenty of more opportunities for change. We can say equivalently that FPTP days are numbered. We just don't know what those numbers are. If Legault follows through and Quebec changes, if PEI reconfirm their Electoral Reform Vote; then we will have a foothold in this country to expand from. After Doug Ford utterly fucks this province into the ground there is going to be a big movement for some form of change again.

Because if there is one thing that the Electoral Reform community in Canada has been consistently good at, it's keeping the topic in the news... somewhere. They are really good at informing the Youth about why it is a problem. And they are really good at taking advantage of shitshows like Ford to get it back into the news just before elections.

Outside of Canada we also watch the last two "bastions" of High Profile Democracy to remain using FPTP, the USA and the UK. If any of these two countries ever switch away, for every individual State in the USA to move away from FPTP to Ranked or PR, the Pro-Reform side will be bolstered by gaining a new example to throw on the stack, with the Opponent's left scrambling to hold onto an ever-dwindling source of examples.

It's days are numbered. It is slowly dying a painful death of a million cuts. But it will happen eventually. And what's funny is that if enough Provinces in Canada switch, it won't even be seen as something needing a Referendum anymore and it will be relegated to the pile of electoral reforms which were done solely in parliament, with no input from the people.

So we sit, we wait. Knowing change will happen and we just have to bide our time until the avalanche begins.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,511
Best report on SNC-Lavallin/Liberals scandal next to one is talking about is definitely this in La Presse posted today. Holy Hell, it kind of add a new dimension to the whole thing.

Basically it's an interview with a criminal lawyer that explains that the whole remediation agreement the Liberals added to the 2018 C-74 omnibus bill was modified before being approved and no one really cared about it except the senate.

They are not sure who added the extra clause but one was added saying that when a company is charged with the corruption of foreign government officials then no remediation agreement can be made under the pretense of national economic interest.

Car les changements au Code criminel qu'il a insérés dans un projet de loi visant à mettre en oeuvre le budget fédéral (C-74) qui a été adopté au printemps dernier comportent une clause qui interdit explicitement au Service des poursuites pénales du Canada de prendre en compte «les considérations d'intérêt économique national» si l'entreprise fautive est visée par des accusations en vertu de la Loi sur la corruption d'agents publics étrangers.
No media talked about this except La Presse and it's kind of a key in all this. The Lawyer interviewed says it kind of make the whole "remediation agreement" useless in this situation (the company is charged with the corruption of government officials in Lybia) and why the chief prosecutor's office didn't use it as it's now part of the criminal code. The laywer calls it a pretty big parliamentary mistake as it makes the whole law useless.

This added clause should have been debated by the judiciary committee but since it was an omnibus budget bill it was the fiance committee that worked on it instead. Still some judiciary committee member tried to ask the then minister Wilson-Raybould about this clause but she denied the invitation.

Thus the lawyer proposes two hypothesis. Either she saw the added clause when it was too late and was thus stuck with it or she was the one that added it in the first place so that no one could weasel their way out of corruption charges.

So basically the whole feud right now could be because she's the one that added the clause behind the Liberal's back and they've chastised her for it or they were trying to pressure her into finding a solution against this particular clause that was added to the criminal code which is shady.

In the light of all that is happening right now this is super interesting. Basically someone definitely tried to prevent SNC-Lavallin's lobbying from working but was it people that wanted justice to prevail or people that would be pretty like some of their competitors if they would crumble and die?
 

Roke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,137
Canada
I'd seen the clause pointed out on Twitter (but I follow a few lawyerly types for some reason) when the story broke and Tiktaalik did post it earlier in the thread today.

But being charged with corrupting a foreign official doesn't mean the company can't get a remediation agreement at the prosecutor's discretion (if it satisfies all the conditions for one), it just means the national economic interest or the identity of the company can't be a factor under consideration when making the decision to offer one.
 

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,177
Well. What an absolute shit show. In brighter news my Liberal Christmas mug finally came in the mail. I wonder if I donate enough if I can get electoral reform instead of a mug.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,668
Toronto
In the light of all that is happening right now this is super interesting. Basically someone definitely tried to prevent SNC-Lavallin's lobbying from working but was it people that wanted justice to prevail or people that would be pretty like some of their competitors if they would crumble and die?
Oh fun, so now we get to add some good old fashioned backstabbing to the list as well. Seriously, why do the Liberals always do this to themselves. They get power, act like they own the place, go making a whole bunch of stupid moves which are, or can be perceived as openly corrupt; and in an election year to boot. Like this has all the markings of a classical Liberal Scandal that it's absurd. When will they learn?
 

Roke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,137
Canada
Coyne's latest column points out the language of that section is straight out of Section 5 of the OECD Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Officials In International Business Transactions. It seems to me less of a clandestine plot to doom SNC-Lavalin and more trying to make the law live up to that convention.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,578
Fuck the LPC and all the gelatin-spined cowards that dragged their feet on electoral reform and actually taking stands on things because of a master plan of not rocking the boat anywhere, for anything. Where has that got you now, shitbags?
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,032
Coyne's latest column points out the language of that section is straight out of Section 5 of the OECD Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Officials In International Business Transactions. It seems to me less of a clandestine plot to doom SNC-Lavalin and more trying to make the law live up to that convention.
Yeah Coyne's latest column on this is definitely worth a read. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-trudeau-and-wilson-raybould-shouldnt-even-have-been-talking-about-snc-lavalin
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,167
Canada
Oh fun, so now we get to add some good old fashioned backstabbing to the list as well. Seriously, why do the Liberals always do this to themselves. They get power, act like they own the place, go making a whole bunch of stupid moves which are, or can be perceived as openly corrupt; and in an election year to boot. Like this has all the markings of a classical Liberal Scandal that it's absurd. When will they learn?
bUt ThEy ArE tHE NaTuRaL gOvErNiNg PaRtY oF cAnAdA
 

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,177
I can't imagine Liberals doing anything that would get them votes in AB.
This is true.

Yep. 4 more years of that or worse though. Well, a lot more than 4 years but let’s take it one mandate at a time.

Hey, on the bright side. It lost them votes elsewhere! That's impressive levels of efficiency.
Much to the chagrin of the NDP the pipeline probably cost them more votes than the shattered hopes of electoral reform.

bUt ThEy ArE tHE NaTuRaL gOvErNiNg PaRtY oF cAnAdA
At least the orange team gets another shot at the title this fall. Let’s see how they do.