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Canada PoliERA |OT| Two Years of Sunny Days? That’s Scheer Madness!
- Thread starter Caz
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Are you confusing Provincial politics with Federal?
Federal can't effect Provincial elections
Not confusing the two. But with the failure of BC to make a change, it just follows the trend of failure. Trudeau could have changed everything (and said he would), but decided not to.
No I didn't. Yes, I know provincial and federal are separate. This does not change the fact that Trudeau could have started the change in electoral systems in Canada. No, I am not blaming him for the results of the vote in BC.
You good now?
This makes no sense. This is like Canada's version of Thanks Obama.
BC lost out on electoral reform because BC residents made that decision.
Again - not blaming trudeau for BC. I blame Trudeau for not following through on the promise he made back during his election campaign.
They are linked not by trudeau, but by the story of failure that is electoral reform in Canada.
London Ontario just held heir first municipal election election using ranked ballots. Aren't you happy for them?
Sure - some change is better than none I suppose. If it helps lead to people not being so afraid of changing the current mess of a system, that would be nice. At least then it becomes a debate between which alternative will work best.
No lol. They're just joking that we should just give those two the reins for a bit and call it a day. I'd take Henry+Meghan over any Conservative any day in such a bizarro world lol.
I've gone full Monarchist now! We need a King and Queen of Canada!!!
Would their powers not be the same as what the GG already has?
No, we should just go full Monarchist and let them have all the power!
I mean government employees already swear an oath to the Queen anyway. Just take it that extra step!
Honestly I don't think it'd be any worse than what we have now. lol
Oh stop it lol. I'd be ok with the monarchy (so the GG) being given an official position of being the people's voice in parliament. So when say Trudeau does (or in this case doesn't) something that's detrimental to most Canadians but is good for his party, there's someone neutral in Parliament calling his ass out and making him explain why he choose to do what he did.
But absolute monarchy? Lol no.
I mean right now the GG and the Queen just read throne speeches and pretend to represent Canada when people visit and the PM is busy. They have no power and are not allowed to be political. People in the UK hate Charles because he apparently has opinions. :p
Sure I'm joking, but at this point I feel like Meghan would probably do a better job than any of the federal leaders at running the country.
London is a trailblazer so far. Also both Kingston and Cambridge held referendums on switching to IRV. In fact, Kingston voted in favour of the change and yesterday directed their Municipal Staff to get everything setup and in place for the next election. Also the new Cambridge City Council is thinking about accepting their referendum despite not getting 50% turnout. So now we're not too worried about our Municipalities switching to a system that is far better for them than FPTP. At which point, we mix this with QuebecTBD and PEIRound Deux, and the movement is still looking good, even if it hit a setback with BC.
Then back to here in Ontario, once Doug Ford is done with, the movement will flare up again. And in a couple election cycles of more and more municipalities switching to Ranked Ballots, we'll hit a point where the Fear Mongering and talking points of "IT'Z TOO FACKING COMPLICATED!!?!?!?" won't work; and Provincially we'll have a Referendum on Ranked or STV.
So yeah, dominos have already begun to fall. The only question is how fast, and in which direction.
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Leave Queen Betty alone. When Chuck's turn comes though...no thanks.
I think birthright rule is about as fair as FPTP so it's a toss up to me.
I mean in both America and Canada, we've already seen political families essentially be de facto royalty.
I mean in both America and Canada, we've already seen political families essentially be de facto royalty.
I think for a PR referendum to succeed there needs to be a clear and recent sign that FPTP is a dysfunctional system.
When people in BC first started wondering if FPTP was a broken system it was because there was two elections in a row with bizarre outcomes.
In 1996 the BC Liberals bested the NDP by 2.37% of the popular vote, but LOST with the BC NDP getting a Majority government by getting the most amount of seats.
Then in 2001 the NDP did disastrously bad due to a series of scandals and only got 21% of the vote to the Liberals' 57%.The outcome in seats however was highly distorted with the Liberals winning 77 seats and the NDP 2. The NDP didn't even meet the cutoff for official party status and the vindictive Liberals denied them an exception, and governed the province basically without opposition for four years.
In the PR referendum that followed a majority supported PR, but not enough to meet the 60% threshold the Liberal party set. After the recent distorted election outcomes it's not surprising to see that people wanted to see changes. In contrast the last few elections in BC have had more reasonable and balanced outcomes and BC's economy is the best in Canada, so all of that favours the status quo.
When people in BC first started wondering if FPTP was a broken system it was because there was two elections in a row with bizarre outcomes.
In 1996 the BC Liberals bested the NDP by 2.37% of the popular vote, but LOST with the BC NDP getting a Majority government by getting the most amount of seats.
Then in 2001 the NDP did disastrously bad due to a series of scandals and only got 21% of the vote to the Liberals' 57%.The outcome in seats however was highly distorted with the Liberals winning 77 seats and the NDP 2. The NDP didn't even meet the cutoff for official party status and the vindictive Liberals denied them an exception, and governed the province basically without opposition for four years.
In the PR referendum that followed a majority supported PR, but not enough to meet the 60% threshold the Liberal party set. After the recent distorted election outcomes it's not surprising to see that people wanted to see changes. In contrast the last few elections in BC have had more reasonable and balanced outcomes and BC's economy is the best in Canada, so all of that favours the status quo.
I'm with Caz. Democracy is fine. Our problems with it only come from a couple key issues.
1. Voter Participation
2. Progressive Parties being too "shy" and letting Regressive take the center stage and offer "easy solutions"
3. Progressive Voters not holding Centralists to account
Fix those three and our downward spiral will be fixed overnight.
People are just scared, and they are making absolutely stupid decisions because of it because Progressives sit back and think "Nobody could be that stupid" in response to Regressives standing up and saying something that sounds easy.
Even so. When you take a step back, it's hard to say that the movement is on its death throws. Not yet at-least. Maybe PR support is going to step back and lick its wounds, but it'll come back every time there is an election gone fucky.
I mean, think about it.
- Municipalities in Ontario are starting to swap to Ranked Ballots. We got 2 Confirmed switches in two major cities, a third potential switch, and a bunch of municipalities which said they are curious about it now that they saw the sky didn't fall in London.
- If Collard follows through in Quebec, that'll be our first PR system in Canada and we'll be able to point to the sky not falling in future referendums.
- In PEI, we got the double whammy opportunity of the Second PR Referendum confirming the first, or the potential Green Government which will want to bring it in.
Even if PEI and Quebec don't follow through, we already have Municipalities in Ontario planting the seed of Ranked Ballots, and in a couple years of acceptable governments there, we'll start seeing support in Ontario for Ranked Ballots on the Provincial Level. Trudeau may very well get his wish of Ranked Ballots Federally, after he is gone that is. And once Ranked Ballots are in place, it is incredibly easy to then push STV because at that point, all we need to talk about is "Making the ranks you know and have used for a couple elections now mean more" ; instead of trying to inform people of how 1-2-3 works, on top of PR.
The only question now is how fast things are going to happen and what flavour they take. If as reformists we have to take the route of doing it incremental instead of all at once; so be it.
And of course, we also can not forget that over the past Decade, Elections in this country and worldwide have started to become more polarized. Thats not something that is going to be solved overnight. Under FPTP things will get more fucky and we can say that for a fact. Those incidents that caused people to want reform to begin with are going to be more frequent, and with it there will be more chances to shove it in peoples faces that this needs to be done.
Things are looking up, even if at the small picture they are down.
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I'm snickering really really hard right now.
Sad thing is that politics is one of the few arenas where people don't want to be overly confrontational unless they're a conservative, so holding feet to the fire seems like an unlikely outcome, to be blunt. It should happen, but it won't.
I'll keep saying it til I'm out of breath, instead of operating as though the vague interests of "fairness" are inherently understood to resolve the qualms voters have with governments, PR needs to campaign on the premise of targeting specific problems like:
- majority rule by parties you hate who won't work across the aisle and further polarize the nation (would work really well for conservatives who hate Trudeau right now)
- lack of more/better options for MPs, including more independent options
- the spoiler effect (read: vote-splitting), which the CPC will have to wrangle with next election for the first time in over a decade
- big-tent parties who are too homogenous to properly represent the people who vote for them
It's why New Zealand succeeded in getting PR and every attempt Canada has tried has failed. We're more interested in talking about the "fairness" angle and how the voting systems work (the cure to the disease) than what actually bothers the voter and what best solves the problem (symptom relief), while NZ did it the other way around.
Until PR advocates can get their heads out of their own assholes and see that they've gone about it all wrong, this will keep happening.
Having been there, I agree, North Battleford is indeed a shithole. But Prince Albert has collectively said "hold my beer" and will likely take the crown as Saskatchewan's worst municipality within 5 years.
I realize Liz is in her 90s but the idea of her dying seems so strange. I half expect her to claim the title of oldest living person before she goes.
I've worked in N.B. before. Pretty dirty place. Can't imagine thinking "hey; buying a house here sounds like a good idea". Just working there briefly was bad. Now I try not to even stop for gas there.
P.A. is next level disgusting though and has been a rough place for as long as I can remember. As a kid it seemed dirty but not unsafe because I was with my parents any time I was there. As an adult it's filthier than I remembered and I have no intention of going back. Certainly wouldn't walk around there at night.
I don't get the Liz hate.
She is probably the best since Victoria and the most respectful towards the Commonwealth
She is probably the best since Victoria and the most respectful towards the Commonwealth
Because whether they want to say it or not, some people want Canada to be more like America or take offence to the Crown purely because of it being a symbol of colonialism (which is more a common take, rightfully, among First Nations). It's not necessarily about Elizabeth herself, it's about the monarchy which she happens to be the head of right now.
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Yeah, that's exactly why people oppose the monarchy... c'mon breh
Your definition of "some" is "all"? Huh, that's awkward. Even more awkward is the fact that you're acting like that's all I said in my post. Huh.
I remember a video being shown around my school of two drug addicts injecting on a sidewalk in P.A. and throwing the used needles over their shoulders. That's basically Prince Albert in a nutshell.
Nah, you're missing the prelude where they likely had sex with dirty old men or committed a really lazy B&E to pay for what's in that needle. THAT is PA in a nutshell.
I think most people who frequent this thread/site would be of the mindset that we do not want Canada to be more like our southern neighbours. That aside, it's rather silly to assume that those who would want Canada to be more like "Murica" would do so by opposing the role of the monarchy in government instead of the whole "taxation without representation (if you're white)/freedom" thing.
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-andrew-scheer-senate-partisan-peter-harder-1.4951451
Another reminder that our Senate is just a series of hacked together solutions put together by politicians over time and is basically all bullshit.
I really wish Canada's rich white politicians and the same foresight as Australia's rich white politicians, but I assume we're going to have like dozens of new Tory senators, probably through Senate expansion, when Scheer wins in order to stack the vote back in his favour.
Another reminder that our Senate is just a series of hacked together solutions put together by politicians over time and is basically all bullshit.
I really wish Canada's rich white politicians and the same foresight as Australia's rich white politicians, but I assume we're going to have like dozens of new Tory senators, probably through Senate expansion, when Scheer wins in order to stack the vote back in his favour.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-2.html#h-5
There can never be more than 113 Senators without a constitutional amendment.
There can never be more than 113 Senators without a constitutional amendment.
Probably because there's not much of a lack of representation anymore, since that issue was dealt with in 1982, by the PM most of the people who would go on about "taxation without representation" in this country love to hate. The only ones who can really say they suffer from taxation without representation at this point are permanent residents who can't vote. But also, who is more likely to complain about "taxation without representation" than a conservative and (again, rightfully) the First Nations people I already mentioned that was ignored?
And while I can see that there are good reasons to be opposed to the monarchy's presence in Canadian politics (which, again, I already mentioned one and it was completely ignored), it's not controversial to say that the majority of people opposed to the monarchy outside of that reason and a much smaller handful of others are conservative voters, and I'd say it's equally uncontroversial to say that they would like us to be more like our southern neighbours, considering the CPC's current ties to Rebel Media, the calls from their voters to empower the provinces even more to make our country more like a US republic and the party that just shot off from the CPC that has held rallies featuring people wearing "Make Canada Great Again" caps without irony.
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