Canadian Election 2019 |OT| One Long Year of Scheer Stupidity [Update: Liberal Minority Government]

Tiktaalik · Sep 5, 2019

Heshinsi said:
So can someone explain to me why BC are supporting the Cons in such a way? I'm guessing Trudeau buying the pipeline has them pissed at him, so they respond with wanting to put the fucking Cons into power. Huh? 😳

The NE of BC is essentially 'Greater Alberta' and its economy is reliant on resource extraction (gas).

There are other ridings (generally ex-urban to rural) in BC where religious conservatism is a factor and urban oriented policies are irrelevant (eg. Abbotsford)

And then you have the usual thing of 'Fuck you got mine' rich urban communities (eg. West Vancouver)

Put all that together and yeah there's a lot of ridings that can pivot to the Conservatives.

Heshinsi · Sep 5, 2019

lunarworks said:
Trudeau made a massive political miscalculation on that one, eh? Handing a major favour to a province that has an unwavering hatred of the Liberal Party hard-coded into their genes by upsetting a province that's traditionally left-leaning.

weirder said:
This poll is a bit inconsistent with other polls. Not just BC but even with the couple minor announcements with the Greens and NDP it's a big difference with other polls. Add it as usual, don't get excited unless there was big things going on to support it.

Map of the last election. Island looks to be going Green. South East will probably stay NDP. Northwest doesn't seem likely to go Con. Southcentral is going to be close. Okanagan-Similkameen was almost flipped to Liberal last time.
Nafta and pipeline starting would make a huge positive difference for the Libs on holding and gaining seats.

Tiktaalik said:
The NE of BC is essentially 'Greater Alberta' and its economy is reliant on resource extraction (gas).

There are other ridings (generally ex-urban to rural) in BC where religious conservatism is a factor and urban oriented policies are irrelevant (eg. Abbotsford)

And then you have the usual thing of 'Fuck you got mine' rich urban communities (eg. West Vancouver)

Put all that together and yeah there's a lot of ridings that can pivot to the Conservatives.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Really didn't think about how blue BC's interior was, and the bit about the wealthy neighbourhoods thinking more about their supposed tax savings parallels some of what happened in Ontario earlier this year.

Terrell · Sep 5, 2019

firehawk12 said:
Probably Liberals, if only because the Greens are dominated by the environmentalist issue.

But as mentioned earlier, both believe in technocratic free market solutions and if the way we are going to save the planet is to pray that tax breaks will get billionaires to invent some kind of Star Trek technology to control Earth's climate within the next 100 years, then... well, as I said in the other thread, I'm glad I don't have my own kids to inherit this mess.

Just to let you know, "technocratic free market" is an oxymoron.

killerrin said:
Nah. All that leads to is extreme lobbying and politicians giving into the dark side of it. As much as Career Politicians Suck, we don't want the alternative which is them selling us out to get a cushy job once their term expires.

Career politicians still do that, though. See: Brad Wall

Kernel said:
As per the replies maybe that's what Warren Kinsella does in his spare time.

Kinsella isn't on the payroll anymore, hasn't been for about... a month?

Kernel · Sep 5, 2019

Terrell said:
Kinsella isn't on the payroll anymore, hasn't been for about... a month?

Meant to say Kinsella tactics, although I wouldn't be surprised if he's still working for them.

djkimothy · Sep 5, 2019

Kernel said:
Meant to say Kinsella tactics, although I wouldn't be surprised if he's still working for them.

I believe some people who work for him are still on May's team.

Also, this is just crazy.

killerrin · Sep 5, 2019

Terrell said:
Career politicians still do that, though. See: Brad Wall

Yeah, but they do it a lot less than other places with Term Limits. It makes punishing them for selling us out a lot easier when it's a few individuals compared to literally everybody.

gutter_trash · Sep 5, 2019

seems really scummy coming from the Greens to carry out such Bolshevik tactics on the NB NDP candidates

Sean C. · Sep 5, 2019

Term limits are a dumb idea even in the US where there's a fair degree of independence for individual legislators and most seats are safe for one party or the other, but it makes even less sense in Canada when most MPs are just voting the party line anyway.

LittleBee · Sep 5, 2019

I wish there was an Andrew Yang equivalent to vote for in the Canadian election.

djkimothy · Sep 5, 2019

Not everyone thinks the Munk debates are a good idea.

++++++++++

Separately;

gutter_trash · Sep 5, 2019

Greens are out for blood.

Any thoughts of merging Green with Orange seem rocky as fuck with the current shenanigans.

Apathy · Sep 5, 2019

Holy shit the greens and NDP lol. The elections this year are going to be spicy

Madison · Sep 5, 2019

Are the canadian greens as untrustworthy as the US Greens

gutter_trash · Sep 5, 2019

Fork said:
Are the canadian greens as untrustworthy as the US Greens

Yes.
They are more like US Greens and nothing like EU Greens

Unknown Unknown · Sep 5, 2019

The NDP nominating candidates will show how strong they are. They got a whole 9 and bit days at most before the writ. That's plenty of time.

Not sure what the US Greens are like. Greens have a good reputation in BC. Looking forward to see how this NB thing turns out. Good preview of the election and a lesson not to take anything happening at first impression.

Kernel · Sep 5, 2019

Fork said:
Are the canadian greens as untrustworthy as the US Greens

Elizabeth May is our version of Jill Stein. She's a former conservative.

I think she's just controlled opposition, designed to bleed votes off Trudeau, a common election strategy.

They don't even have a foreign policy, and her threatening to force an election if her demands aren't met is very autocratic.

I might be wrong but I don't think she's attacked Smeer once.

If Cons win a minority, she will hook up with Scheer in minutes.

SRG01 · Sep 5, 2019

Kernel said:
Elizabeth May is our version of Jill Stein. She's a former conservative.

I think she's just controlled opposition, designed to bleed votes off Trudeau, a common election strategy.

They don't even have a foreign policy, and her threatening to force an election if her demands aren't met is very autocratic.

I might be wrong but I don't think she's attacked Smeer once.

If Cons win a minority, she will hook up with Scheer in minutes.

I mean, come on, that's a little stretching it. She has been an environmentalist since early in her career, and was a policy advisor to the PC government. That's not really her being a conservative.

Tiktaalik · Sep 5, 2019

I feel like this is already the most anyone has ever talked about New Brunswick during an election

gutter_trash · Sep 5, 2019

May is an American, that says it all

Deleted member 49179 · Sep 5, 2019

gutter_trash said:
May is an American, that says it all

What does it say?

Caz · Sep 5, 2019

Kernel said:
Elizabeth May is our version of Jill Stein. She's a former conservative.

I think she's just controlled opposition, designed to bleed votes off Trudeau, a common election strategy.

They don't even have a foreign policy, and her threatening to force an election if her demands aren't met is very autocratic.

I might be wrong but I don't think she's attacked Smeer once.

If Cons win a minority, she will hook up with Scheer in minutes.

The Green's Indigenous policy is also atrocious in both content and spelling, not to mention outdated in parts: https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2019/05/14/Greens-Need-To-Fix-Indigenous-Vision/

Looking carefully at it, the first thing you notice is how dated it is. Parts of the document's Indigenous policy date back to former Green Party leader Jim Harris' 2006 election platform — in fact parts are cribbed word-for-word from it. Among those items recycled from Harris' platform is a reference to "First Nations, Inuit, Innu, and Métis" peoples. This is a jarring mistake because the Innu are a First Nations people whose name sounds similar to "Inuit" — a people who are different and separate from First Nations — but who are never otherwise listed next to First Nations, Inuit and Métis as a separate category in their own right. Confusing the two betrays a lack of care given to this policy — as does the next thing you notice about Vision Green's statement on Indigenous people — the numerous typographic and spelling errors.

Throughout, the party inconsistently uses Métis with and without an accent, capitalizes the words 'Native' and 'Indigenous' seemingly at random and makes spelling errors, as with the name of what they call the "T'sicoltin" decision (the correct spelling is Tsilhqot'in).

gutter_trash · Sep 5, 2019

Static_Void said:
What does it say?

Just visiting

Reading her BIO, she's another person of preivelege who is okay with conservatives

Unknown Unknown · Sep 5, 2019

Libs are acting very very afraid of such a trifling party. lol.
Trying to give someone like PPC Bernier a national platform in one moment then saying
But May..she's the real danger with her clear messages against racism and support of climate change legislation.

The Munk debate is on foreign policy mid campaign. May is attending with Scheer and Singh.
Barn burner in the making.

Caz · Sep 5, 2019

Munk is junk, y'all.

gutter_trash · Sep 5, 2019

Steve Bannon?!
JeeZ what is up with the platforming?

Unknown Unknown · Sep 5, 2019

Agreed on Munk. Their history makes me glad that Trudeau isn't going.
Seemed like an oppo trap. Do want to see May and Scheer there though.
Singh should really liven things up now!

orochi91 · Sep 5, 2019

About the Munk Debates:

The Munk Debate is run by a little-known charitable foundation that is quietly bankrolling right-wing think tanks across Canada ....

Between 2011 and 2017, Aurea's regular donations to these right-wing organizations have totaled in the millions:

The Fraser Institute ($1,675,568)

MacDonald-Laurier Institute ($1,255,000)

Frontier Centre for Public Policy ($1,204,000)

Montreal Economic Institute ($968,000)

C.D. Howe Institute ($870,000)

Canadian Constitution Foundation ($425,000)

Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms ($275,000)

Atlantic Institute for Market Studies ($252,500)

Source:
The Group Behind Steve Bannon's Toronto Event Also Funds Canada's Biggest Right-Wing Think Tanks

Hideo GOATjima · Sep 5, 2019

I remember Trudeau doing well in the Munk debate Last time

Gave us this gem

djkimothy · Sep 5, 2019

The Munk debates getting universally panned was an unexpected turn. I think Justin Ling is the only one supporting it. But threads like below seem to have popped up on twitter.

Who knew hosting david frum and steve bannon would ruin any credibility they may have had...

And I had no idea how Conservative green is, this is all news to me.

Terrell · Sep 5, 2019

Kernel said:
I might be wrong but I don't think she's attacked Smeer once.

If Cons win a minority, she will hook up with Scheer in minutes.

Literally the first result I got in search results:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/10/23/elizabeth-may-andrew-scheer_a_23569763/

gutter_trash said:
Just visiting

Yeah, she's been "just visiting" since 1972. Funny that a Liberal would use a dig that was used against a Liberal leader who actually WAS opportunistically in Canada.

This is such flagrant bullshit from both of you that it's laughable.

djkimothy · Sep 5, 2019

It's funny how this Munk debate debate is causing "Steve Bannon" to trend in Canada.

Simon Belmont · Sep 5, 2019

The greens are an environmental protest vote, and that's cool, but they're definitely in no position to govern. You know it, I know it, they know it, dogs know it.

Deleted member 49179 · Sep 5, 2019

Simon Belmont said:
The greens are an environmental protest vote, and that's cool, but they're definitely in no position to govern. You know it, I know it, they know it, dogs know it.

Environment's own Bloc Québécois :p

Terrell · Sep 5, 2019

Simon Belmont said:
The greens are an environmental protest vote, and that's cool, but they're definitely in no position to govern. You know it, I know it, they know it, dogs know it.

Not being in a position to govern doesn't stop the CPC, so clearly that's not a barrier for entry. LOL

Simon Belmont · Sep 5, 2019

Touché

firehawk12 · Sep 5, 2019

Terrell said:
Just to let you know, "technocratic free market" is an oxymoron.

I suppose in my mind "free market" is always in quotes because people like to ask for deregulation but what they really mean is market rules that benefit specific ideologies.
It's like how scientific technocrats believe that women are just intrinsically not suited for science and that we shouldn't try to intervene in the free market of science with affirmative action.

Terrell · Sep 5, 2019

firehawk12 said:
I suppose in my mind "free market" is always in quotes because people like to ask for deregulation but what they really mean is market rules that benefit specific ideologies.
It's like how scientific technocrats believe that women are just intrinsically not suited for science and that we shouldn't try to intervene in the free market of science with affirmative action.

Whoever told you that technocrats believe women are ill-suited for science is full of it. And if that person was a self-professed technocrat, they're full of shit. Period.

Unknown Unknown · Sep 5, 2019

Greens after a term or two as Opposition with those resources and control of parliament would be getting their team, connections and experience in. Policies more well understood and developed both interprovincially and internationally.
Climate crisis is only going to get worse in the next decade and make Green policy more important. This election voters have the opportunity to help get them prepare and develop a unified national voice, regionally represented against those who put environment second. The groundwork has been done. This election is the perfect opportunity to take it to the next level
How this NB thing turns out and is played could have huge repercussions.

Static_Void said:
Environment's own Bloc Québécois :p

Great ring to it! I nominate it for their unofficial slogan for this election.
If they get that many seats...ItsHappening

firehawk12 · Sep 5, 2019

Terrell said:
Whoever told you that technocrats believe women are ill-suited for science is full of it. And if that person was a self-professed technocrat, they're full of shit. Period.

Digging through my old readings, I'm just reminded of papers like these:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/20000181?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

This paper argues that the enormous influence exerted by technocratic elites in the democratization process in Latin America has represented an obstacle to the improvement of women's status in the region. Gender-biased assumptions and practices have been only partially addressed, in part because the policy-making process is under the control of economists, a professional group with a particularly unfriendly stand towards gendered analysis. It is suggested that reforms within economics may help in the task of making democracy more responsive to the demands of women.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-16169-3_8

This chapter explores two linked logics that perpetuate this inequitable distribution of opportunities: the technocratic understanding of engineering as an enterprise in which power relations play no part; and the related construction of engineering education as a field based solely on meritocratic judgments about eligibility and skill. Through both of these formulations American engineering supports the ongoing exclusion of certain communities based on perceived heritage and ascriptions of potential in turn based on those identities.

It's probably why I just assume people like the CERN guy who thinks women are given too many advantages and that real science should be "naturally selected" are technocrats.

Morrigan · Sep 5, 2019

orochi91 said:
About the Munk Debates:

Source:
The Group Behind Steve Bannon's Toronto Event Also Funds Canada's Biggest Right-Wing Think Tanks

Fucking hell

Kernel · Sep 6, 2019

SRG01 said:
I mean, come on, that's a little stretching it. She has been an environmentalist since early in her career, and was a policy advisor to the PC government. That's not really her being a conservative.

Caz said:
The Green's Indigenous policy is also atrocious in both content and spelling, not to mention outdated in parts:

SRG01 yes it's a bit of a stretch but she still worked for the PC.

weirder said:
But May..she's the real danger with her clear messages against racism and support of climate change legislation.

Ah yes her support for climate change legislation, what's she willing to give up in return? Very weird to even advertise this before the election is even called.
Reminds me of Jack Layton supporting Harper.
Singh did it better, by not supporting CPC. I prefer those kind of principles. The fact that she'd be willing to ally with Scheer is a no no.
There's just something off about her. She was willing to just give JWR leadership of the party.
She hired Warren Kinsella.
And now this BS with the NB NDP.

gutter_trash · Sep 6, 2019

Kernel said:
SRG01 yes it's a bit of a stretch but she still worked for the PC.

Ah yes her support for climate change legislation, what's she willing to give up in return? Very weird to even advertise this before the election is even called.
Reminds me of Jack Layton supporting Harper.
Singh did it better, by not supporting CPC. I prefer those kind of principles. The fact that she'd be willing to ally with Scheer is a no no.
There's just something off about her. She was willing to just give JWR leadership of the party.
She hired Warren Kinsella.
And now this BS with the NB NDP.

this week made Singh more sympathetic while it made Liz rotten

and I am usually not one to defend the NDP but this here beyond the pale on the part of the Greens

Unknown Unknown · Sep 6, 2019

Kernel said:
Ah yes her support for climate change legislation, what's she willing to give up in return? Very weird to even advertise this before the election is even called.
Reminds me of Jack Layton supporting Harper.
Singh did it better, by not supporting CPC. I prefer those kind of principles. The fact that she'd be willing to ally with Scheer is a no no.
There's just something off about her. She was willing to just give JWR leadership of the party.
She hired Warren Kinsella.
And now this BS with the NB NDP.

The leader of the party saying that meeting Green policy for cooperation at this point in the election just seems like basic messaging. Negotiating terms of surrender before the battle started is weak. Planting a flag and taking control of discussion that involves the party is better. Might make some uncomfortable that aren't Green supporters but that's just tough shit for them.
Glad JWR decided to run independent. May can't just give leadership anyway. She can offer to step down and the party choose a new leader. JWR wouldn't win if May was in it.

New seat projections have the Liberals at 172.

https://calculatedpolitics.ca/2019-canadian-federal-election/

Nice interactive regional map!

S-Wind · Sep 6, 2019

If the Liberals get a minority, and they need the NDP and/or the Green Party to prop them up I wonder if JT will agree to implementing PR as a part of the deal - and ACTUALLY DO IT.

Unknown Unknown · Sep 6, 2019

Better chance with the Greens to get them to do it now that May let the nation know that she'll force elections if they don't give into Green agenda. Electoral reform is after enviromental.

Unknown Unknown · Sep 6, 2019

Libs might have no choice but to revisit electoral reform anyway if JT wins a majority with 34% of the popular vote.
Funny as it is in a three party-ish country that just over one third figures. Filthy moderates.

lupinko · Sep 6, 2019

orochi91 said:
About the Munk Debates:

Source:
The Group Behind Steve Bannon's Toronto Event Also Funds Canada's Biggest Right-Wing Think Tanks

More like Skunk Debates.

Hycran · Sep 6, 2019

Terrell said:
Not being in a position to govern doesn't stop the CPC, so clearly that's not a barrier for entry. LOL

There's a difference between doing a bad job and actually knowing how to do the job at all.

SixPointEight · Sep 6, 2019

Lol now the Funk Institute is showing up in my Facebook ads because they're complaining Trudeau isn't showing up. Get bent, you platformed Brannon.

Terrell · Sep 6, 2019

Hycran said:
There's a difference between doing a bad job and actually knowing how to do the job at all.

Considering how many rookie MPs are/have been in cabinet positions since 2015 (and in every cabinet since the dawn of Canadian democracy, I imagine), some of whom were put in positions they have no background or training in, or how the history of the PMO is littered with people who didn't know the job until they took it and surrounded themselves with smart people to get them where they needed to be, this is not a thread I think you want to pull on too hard.

Canadian Election 2019 |OT| One Long Year of Scheer Stupidity [Update: Liberal Minority Government]

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