Canadian Election 2019 |OT| One Long Year of Scheer Stupidity [Update: Liberal Minority Government]

Vamphuntr · Sep 11, 2019

François Legault's open challenge on day 1 to Trudeau is really something. I don't think it's really wise at all. It was not a winning issue for Marois at the provincial level so I don't see why now it would be at the federal level. Still it's pretty interesting as he's obviously trying to stop him (and to a lesser extent Scheer) from playing both sides on that issue.

Michel David in Le Devoir was saying last week that both a Trudeau and Scheer majority would be bad for him and that his best option was minority government. Seems it's pretty on point.

The SNC stuff never ends. Jesus. Now we know the government blocked the RCMP investigation ( I guess they're trying to save face after the embarrassing Norman investigation they had done).

Kernel · Sep 11, 2019

Vamphuntr said:
The SNC stuff never ends. Jesus. Now we know the government blocked the RCMP investigation ( I guess they're trying to save face after the embarrassing Norman investigation they had done)

There is no investigation and they haven't blocked anything.

firehawk12 · Sep 11, 2019

UberTag said:
Is there anything the Green party has said they won't allow their MPs to do? I mean, if the gates have been thrown wide open to allow them to push for harsh abortion laws and Quebec separatism, what else is on the table?

Recriminalization of marijuana?
Stripping Canadian citizenship from immigrants?
Appropriating land from our native populations and selling it to foreign investors?

What aren't they cool with? Can they even be regarded as the party that's most looking out for the environment and climate change if they're so flexible on everything else?

It's as if being a one issue party issue is a huge problem! (Just ask Libertarians)

Kernel said:
This is what's going to happen:

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-p...estigating-people-in-the-pmo-over-snc-lavalin

This is going to be our Hillary's emails this election.

This nothing burger will dominate headlines.

A "nothing burger" they could have literally solved like several months ago.

Same with Bill 21, where the Liberals are afraid of offending racist Quebec voters so they are basically using the "States Rights" argument that Americans love to use when dodging questions.

Kernel · Sep 11, 2019

firehawk12 said:
It's as if being a one issue party issue is a huge problem! (Just ask Libertarians

Well Libertarians are just nuts.

firehawk12 said:
A "nothing burger" they could have literally solved like several months ago.

How? The media and CPC won't let it.

firehawk12 said:
Same with Bill 21, where the Liberals are afraid of offending racist Quebec voters so they are basically using the "States Rights" argument that Americans love to use when dodging questions

Any party that would take this on would instantly lose a ton of support. What are they to do?

firehawk12 · Sep 11, 2019

Kernel said:
Well Libertarians are just nuts.

So are the Greens it seems. :p

How? The media and CPC won't let it.

Should have just ate it and admitted the wrongdoing instead of lying and lying and lying and dragging this out literally into the election?

Unless you believe that Harper literally planted the Ethics commissioner 5+ years in advance just so he could destroy Trudeau in 2019. 5d chess and all that.

Any party that would take this on would instantly lose a ton of support. What are they to do?

A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian*.
*Except in Quebec.

I think it's fine if you're politically expedient and are willing to trade your values for votes, but I think I'm allowed to be disappointed as well.

Caz · Sep 11, 2019

The Beaverton is having a lot of fun with this election.

Kernel · Sep 11, 2019

firehawk12 said:
Should have just ate it and admitted the wrongdoing instead of lying and lying and lying and dragging this out literally into the election?

Unless you believe that Harper literally planted the Ethics commissioner 5+ years in advance just so he could destroy Trudeau in 2019. 5d chess and all that.

If they admitted it, the media and CPC would still ride this into the election and beyond. They won't let it go either way.

firehawk12 said:
A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian*.
*Except in Quebec.

I think it's fine if you're politically expedient and are willing to trade your values for votes, but I think I'm allowed to be disappointed as well.

It's Quebec. We should be used to this by now. No PM has ever handled this stuff well.

I don't disagree with you. But sacrificing values for votes is politics 101. I've just kind of accepted it.

We have a divided country where this stuff is popular in one province, where he needs votes. If he loses, this stuff and worse will happen.

23qwerty · Sep 11, 2019

Caz said:
The Beaverton is having a lot of fun with this election.

kurtcobainmemorialpizza.pizza

amazing

firehawk12 · Sep 11, 2019

Kernel said:
If they admitted it, the media and CPC would still ride this into the election and beyond. They won't let it go either way.

I feel like there's some place in between Harper's bullshit and Martin's bullshit that would have quashed it fairly quickly, and Trudeau leaned toward Harper.

It's Quebec. We should be used to this by now. No PM has ever handled this stuff well.

I don't disagree with you. But sacrificing values for votes is politics 101. I've just kind of accepted it.

We have a divided country where this stuff is popular in one province, where he needs votes. If he loses, this stuff and worse will happen.

I don't disagree, but I think I would have been fine if Trudeau had just come out as a bastard in the first place, like Chretien. It makes the current messaging a mess and why people don't know if he actually cares about the environment or about racism in Canada when he takes such milquetoast positions on both issues, let alone all the other policy issues the government faces.

Speaking of Chretien, in retrospect it's kind of amazing that he basically came out of AdScam ahead or at least relatively unscathed.

Vamphuntr · Sep 11, 2019

Kernel said:
There is no investigation and they haven't blocked anything.

I feel that's pretty much playing semantics though. The Globe and Mail isn't known to make up stuff. You can argue what "investigation" means in the context of the election period sure but still their sources are usually spot on. The way you worded it reminded me of Trudeau on day one of the issue when he pretty much says nothing happened and months later there is an ethics report slamming him over everything.

EDIT : About Chrétien. He had to weasel his way out of it. He was slammed as being responsible in Gomery's report but went to court to whine about how the investigation was partial to him so he could have the parts mentioning him in the report striken out. Another sore loser.

Kernel · Sep 11, 2019

firehawk12 said:
I don't disagree, but I think I would have been fine if Trudeau had just come out as a bastard in the first place, like Chretien. It makes the current messaging a mess and why people don't know if he actually cares about the environment or about racism in Canada when he takes such milquetoast positions on both issues, let alone all the other policy issues the government faces

That's just it, I don't doubt his personal convictions. Things are just way more complicated in politics.

Politicians are a reflection of their base. If Conservatives weren't racist, then the Rebel wouldn't exist and Hamish Marshall would be flipping burgers somewhere etc.

Trudeau says he is personally against abortion. But given where that issue stands with his base he doesn't reopen it.

I think he cares about the environment too but given that people don't want to pay or make drastic changes to the economy this is what we have to work with.

The Liberals are a reflection of a large part of this country. We want to be seen doing great things but we don't want to break any eggs.

Vamphuntr · Sep 11, 2019

The main issue is that Trudeau presented himself as a paragon of goodwill during his last run. It was basically one of his trademark. He apologized to the LGBT community for what happened in the past, he apologized to indigenous people to help facilitate reconciliation and he welcomed immigrants fleeing Trump and warzones among other things.

It's pretty poor for that image to now sits and do nothing while hoping the superior court or the supreme court gets rid of the issue. I still don't feel it's really dangerous for him to do better on this issue. The liberals riding in Montréal are already against the CAQ government so it will change nothing. The Québec city area are already a lock for the CPC and the rest will be some three way fight with the Bloc with a few safe Bloc seats and Bloc gains.

Simon Belmont · Sep 11, 2019

Tiktaalik said:
It is indeed a story, not baloney, that the PMO is putting up barriers that will limit the effectiveness of the RCMP investigation into SNC Lavalin, just like the PMO put up barriers to limit access by the Ethics Commissioner.

The article in question:

It is no surprise really. The PMO and all the actors involved have been extremely evasive about the whole issue.

So first of all, the decision to release cabinet information is made by the privy council clerk, who is a public servant. Second of all, why specifically do you think justice is better served by destroying a company that employs thousands for something a few people at the top did? What about the DPA regime do you think is inadequate?

Vamphuntr said:
I feel that's pretty much playing semantics though. The Globe and Mail isn't known to make up stuff. You can argue what "investigation" means in the context of the election period sure but still their sources are usually spot on. The way you worded it reminded me of Trudeau on day one of the issue when he pretty much says nothing happened and months later there is an ethics report slamming him over everything.

The Globe is the same paper that tried to endorse the Conservatives but not Steven Harper last election. They've got a right wing lean, and editorial independence just does not exist in Canada any more. Sad to say.

Tiktaalik · Sep 11, 2019

Kernel said:
Harper did the same thing.

This is basically Canadian Liberalism in a nutshell: The only standard is the low standard set by the Conservatives. Nonetheless the Liberals will lavish praise on themselves for clearing this low bar.

But in fact no, Trudeau's PMO meddling in the affairs of the judicial system is about 1000x worse than any scandal Harper's PMO was involved in.

Kernel said:
There is no investigation and they haven't blocked anything.

Someone didn't read the Globe article... The Ethics commissioner was blocked from fully investigating the issue. The RCMP have received the same treatment.

Vamphuntr said:
François Legault's open challenge on day 1 to Trudeau is really something. I don't think it's really wise at all. It was not a winning issue for Marois at the provincial level so I don't see why now it would be at the federal level. Still it's pretty interesting as he's obviously trying to stop him (and to a lesser extent Scheer) from playing both sides on that issue.

The Bill 21 stuff is a real wild card. I think it has the potential to take over the election much like the niqab issue dominated the 2015 election.

The Liberals, Greens and Conservatives are all pandering to Quebec by half-denouncing the bill, but being oh so hesitant to actually say they'd do anything as PM. Singh I believe has come out much more forcefully but I don't know what the policy of the NDP is in Quebec here as I read their campaign is being run somewhat independently.

If I were Singh I'd just go all out fully against Bill 21 and call it for the bullshit that it is. He may lose the QC seats, but in trade he could make a good impression in the communities in the RoC that would be targeted by this bill if they happened to live in QC.

Vamphuntr · Sep 11, 2019

Simon Belmont said:
The Globe is the same paper that tried to endorse the Conservatives but not Steven Harper last election. They've got a right wing lean, and editorial independence just does not exist in Canada any more. Sad to say.

That's not really a rebuttal though. If you want to say they are making up stuff to make the government looks bad you will need to actually prove they are making stuff up. I fully agree they are probably happy to print it but you will need evidence for that one.

Tiktaalik said:
If I were Singh I'd just go all out fully against Bill 21 and call it for the bullshit that it is. He may lose the QC seats, but in trade he could make a good impression in the communities in the RoC that would be targeted by this bill if they happened to live in QC.

This is pretty much what pundits in QC were expecting him to do a few weeks ago. There was a column in Le Devoir that was basically saying that doing this will put the Liberals on thin ice. I still don't believe it to be so dangerous but hey I could be wrong. Many ridings where this will be an issue aren't traditionnally voting liberals anyway. Never forget that Marois made this a ballot issue and lost badly.

Kernel · Sep 11, 2019

Vamphuntr said:
The main issue is that Trudeau presented himself as a paragon of goodwill during his last run. It was basically one of his trademark. He apologized to the LGBT community for what happened in the past, he apologized to indigenous people to help facilitate reconciliation and he welcomed immigrants fleeing Trump and warzones among other things.

It's pretty poor for that image to now sits and do nothing while hoping the superior court or the supreme court gets rid of the issue. I still don't feel it's really dangerous for him to do better on this issue. The liberals riding in Montréal are already against the CAQ government so it will change nothing. The Québec city area are already a lock for the CPC and the rest will be some three way fight with the Bloc with a few safe Bloc seats and Bloc gains.

I get what you're saying but progressives need to stop eating each other.

Not that I think Trudeau is perfect by any means but we hold our politicians to such a ridiculous standard that I think no one is good enough.

Simon Belmont said:
made by the privy council clerk, who is a public servant. Second of all, why specifically do you think justice is better served by destroying a company that employs thousands for something a few people at the top did? What about the DPA regime do you think is inadequate?

Thank you.

One thing I hate about the media is the spin that a DPA is somehow avoiding punishment. It's not.

If SNC gets banned from federal contracts I think the company would cease to exist. Do you want China to take their place?

Simon Belmont said:
The Globe is the same paper that tried to endorse the Conservatives but not Steven Harper last election. They've got a right wing lean, and editorial independence just does not exist in Canada any more. Sad to say.

Sad but true. We are surrounded by conservative mouthpieces.

Tiktaalik · Sep 11, 2019

Simon Belmont said:
So first of all, the decision to release cabinet information is made by the privy council clerk, who is a public servant. Second of all, why specifically do you think justice is better served by destroying a company that employs thousands for something a few people at the top did? What about the DPA regime do you think is inadequate?

The previous privy council clerk Michael Wernick resigned due to his improper behaviour around SNC Lavalin and many have commented that he did not behave in a non-partisan way. I certainly don't think he did. If this is the current culture in Ottawa then do we have any expectation that this new privy council clerk is any different?

It is not at all certain that SNC Lavalin would have been destroyed by the lawsuit against them. There certainly was no study by the government to discern the impacts. This wasn't some policy created up by the Canadian public service, but was the result of intense lobbying by SNC Lavalin to get out of trouble.

What sort of message does this send to other Canadian engineering firms? Lie and cheat as much as possible and lobby your way out of trouble? If SNC was found guilty and prevented from bidding on government projects for several years, this would have been a windfall for other Canadian engineering firms, which would have won said projects and would have staffed up to complete them, likely by hiring SNC staff. Talented SNC employees would have been fine. The only losers would have been the investors in SNC Lavalin stock. This is why the Liberal Party stepped in to try to give special status to SNC Lavalin. They don't give a shit about the employees, they care about the investors.

I'm not a lawyer so who knows why the crown prosecutor didn't think the DPA was appropriate for SNC Lavalin, but what I do know is that it was 100% totally, insanely, inappropriate for Trudeau and the PMO to pressure the AG to step in and change the prosecutors decision. The decision to prosecute is for our justice system, not for the executive office of the government. These are foundational pillars of our democracy. The government deciding who gets prosecuted is shit that happens in corrupt banana republics, not Canada.

Simon Belmont · Sep 11, 2019

Vamphuntr said:
That's not really a rebuttal though. If you want to say they are making up stuff to make the government looks bad you will need to actually prove they are making stuff up. I fully agree they are probably happy to print it but you will need evidence for that one.

Printing "dihydrogen monixide kills thousands per year" is technically true, but does not provide the proper context for the larger discussion. Trudeau advocating for a DPA is true, whether that is against the law is a much different matter. The Dion report is the report of one guy who had to rearrange the wording of the law he was supporting his claim with to find the Liberals guilty. (Here is a pretty good article on what's wrong with the Dion report - https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...e-ethics-commissioners-report-on-trudeau.html - these are relevant points, and since there is no way to appeal or contest this non-binding report it should be the responsibility of the media to at treat it like the political document it is)

That's just a small example of the Canadian media as a whole printing conservative talking points uncontested but putting heavy scrutiny on the Libs. The NDP don't have it any better, they're just plain ignored. The right wing owns the media in Canada. Don't lose sight of that this election.

Sign · Sep 11, 2019

Simon Belmont said:
...
That's just a small example of the Canadian media as a whole printing conservative talking points uncontested but putting heavy scrutiny on the Libs. The NDP don't have it any better, they're just plain ignored. The right wing owns the media in Canada. Don't lose sight of that this election.

Simon Belmont · Sep 11, 2019

Tiktaalik said:
The previous privy council clerk Michael Wernick resigned due to his improper behaviour around SNC Lavalin and many have commented that he did not behave in a non-partisan way. I certainly don't think he did. If this is the current culture in Ottawa then do we have any expectation that this new privy council clerk is any different?

It is not at all certain that SNC Lavalin would have been destroyed by the lawsuit against them. There certainly was no study by the government to discern the impacts. This wasn't some policy created up by the Canadian public service, but was the result of intense lobbying by SNC Lavalin to get out of trouble.

What sort of message does this send to other Canadian engineering firms? Lie and cheat as much as possible and lobby your way out of trouble? If SNC was found guilty and prevented from bidding on government projects for several years, this would have been a windfall for other Canadian engineering firms, which would have won said projects and would have staffed up to complete them, likely by hiring SNC staff. Talented SNC employees would have been fine. The only losers would have been the investors in SNC Lavalin stock. This is why the Liberal Party stepped in to try to give special status to SNC Lavalin. They don't give a shit about the employees, they care about the investors.

I'm not a lawyer so who knows why the crown prosecutor didn't think the DPA was appropriate for SNC Lavalin, but what I do know is that it was 100% totally, insanely, inappropriate for Trudeau and the PMO to pressure the AG to step in and change the prosecutors decision. The decision to prosecute is for our justice system, not for the executive office of the government. These are foundational pillars of our democracy. The government deciding who gets prosecuted is shit that happens in corrupt banana republics, not Canada.

The previous privy clerk is 62 and resigned for who the fuck knows what reasons. I'm pretty sure at 62 I would't want to be in the middle of this bullshit.

How many jobs of people who had nothing to do with what happened would be appropriate in your eyes? Do you think everyone who works at SNC is not living paycheque to paycheque? Can they all afford the interruption of work that prosecuting the company as opposed to entering a DPA would incur? But more specifically, why do you think that is a better outcome than the DPA regime? What don't you like about DPAs?

Also it's 11 and I have to work in the morning, so it is very unlikely that I will be continuing this conversation this evening.

Have a good night canucks, somehow we'll get through this together.

killerrin · Sep 11, 2019

Sign said:
.

Yep, nothing to see here but Liberal Bias. Thanks for confirming.

Vamphuntr · Sep 11, 2019

Simon Belmont said:
Printing "dihydrogen monixide kills thousands per year" is technically true, but does not provide the proper context for the larger discussion. Trudeau advocating for a DPA is true, whether that is against the law is a much different matter. The Dion report is the report of one guy who had to rearrange the wording of the law he was supporting his claim with to find the Liberals guilty. (Here is a pretty good article on what's wrong with the Dion report - https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...e-ethics-commissioners-report-on-trudeau.html - these are relevant points, and since there is no way to appeal or contest this non-binding report it should be the responsibility of the media to at treat it like the political document it is)

That's just a small example of the Canadian media as a whole printing conservative talking points uncontested but putting heavy scrutiny on the Libs. The NDP don't have it any better, they're just plain ignored. The right wing owns the media in Canada. Don't lose sight of that this election.

That's still not making stuff up unless your are saying they are inventing everything. Your point seems to be that they are not giving the interpretations to the news you want them too. Their printed story is simply about a source coming to them and telling them they were interviewed by the RCMP and were told their work is impeded. So what's your issue with that? Because they slant conservatives that they obviously made it up? By the same logic people could says that the Star swings to the left and is biased in the opposite manner. What you linked is also an opinion piece and not a news story.

This is a big issue with how people consume media it seems.

Kernel · Sep 11, 2019

Tiktaalik said:
It is not at all certain that SNC Lavalin would have been destroyed by the lawsuit against them. There certainly was no study by the government to discern the impacts. This wasn't some policy created up by the Canadian public service, but was the result of intense lobbying by SNC Lavalin to get out of trouble

Once again a DPA is not getting out of trouble. Part of it requires an admission of guilt, heavy fines and constant monitoring.

If they're banned from government contracts for 10 years of course it will cost jobs, and any existing ones may be cancelled.

What's the point of prosecuting an entire company when the people that did the shady shit are no longer there?

Tiktaalik said:
What sort of message does this send to other Canadian engineering firms? Lie and cheat as much as possible and lobby your way out of trouble? If SNC was found guilty and prevented from bidding on government projects for several years, this would have been a windfall for other Canadian engineering firms, which would have won said projects and would have staffed up to complete them, likely by hiring SNC staff. Talented SNC employees would have been fine. The only losers would have been the investors in SNC Lavalin stock. This is why the Liberal Party stepped in to try to give special status to SNC Lavalin. They don't give a shit about the employees, they care about the investors.

We have other engineering firms like SNC?

Tiktaalik said:
I'm not a lawyer so who knows why the crown prosecutor didn't think the DPA was appropriate for SNC Lavalin, but what I do know is that it was 100% totally, insanely, inappropriate for Trudeau and the PMO to pressure the AG to step in and change the prosecutors decision. The decision to prosecute is for our justice system, not for the executive office of the government. These are foundational pillars of our democracy. The government deciding who gets prosecuted is shit that happens in corrupt banana republics, not Canada

My understanding is that since the Justice Minister and AG are the person that's where the problem lies. Trudeau isn't allowed to interfere with the AG but he can pass along info to DoJ to consider the national interest (jobs and national security) on a case. That's his job.

Even JWR said she felt pressured but nothing illegal happened.

Also worth mentioning is that JWR possibly had an axe to grind with SNC as she has protested against them before and my guess is she should have recused from the case due to possible bias.

I couldn't imagine someone who protested against a company in the past being appointed years later to prosecute them without people demanding an impartial prosecutor.

Plus she never said why she wouldn't even consider a DPA. It's her call but why hasn't this come out?

The other stuff Simon Belmont mentioned. There were some concerns mentioned in that article on the ethics report that haven't been followed upon.

Tiktaalik · Sep 11, 2019

Simon Belmont said:
How many jobs of people who had nothing to do with what happened would be appropriate in your eyes? Do you think everyone who works at SNC is not living paycheque to paycheque? Can they all afford the interruption of work that prosecuting the company as opposed to entering a DPA would incur? But more specifically, why do you think that is a better outcome than the DPA regime? What don't you like about DPAs?

I don't have anything against DPAs. The DPA isn't the point. The point is that it's not the role of the PM to make this decision. It's an extremely fucked up abuse of power to that the PMO tried to get in there and tried to harass their way to the outcome they favoured. That's the scandal here.

It always sucks to lose a job. I've personally gotten laid off because my company lost a big contract. No one wants to see job losses. However, the other way to look at this is from the view of everyone in the industry that isn't SNC Lavalin. What about the employees at the other engineering firms that lose out on contracts because the Federal government has their thumb on the scales to help out their bud SNC Lavalin?

If the PMO managed to get a DPA granted even though it wasn't appropriate, the law abiding companies receive no incentive for their proper behaviour. Instead of being incentivized to play by the rules, they are essentially incentivized to lie and cheat as much as possible and lobby their way out of trouble. Do we want this to be the norm?

firehawk12 · Sep 11, 2019

Kernel said:
That's just it, I don't doubt his personal convictions. Things are just way more complicated in politics.

Politicians are a reflection of their base. If Conservatives weren't racist, then the Rebel wouldn't exist and Hamish Marshall would be flipping burgers somewhere etc.

Trudeau says he is personally against abortion. But given where that issue stands with his base he doesn't reopen it.

I think he cares about the environment too but given that people don't want to pay or make drastic changes to the economy this is what we have to work with.

The Liberals are a reflection of a large part of this country. We want to be seen doing great things but we don't want to break any eggs.

I don't disagree that politics is essentially one big compromise, but if we're supposed to give Scheer shit about his robotic non-answers on marriage equality and abortion, then surely Trudeau deserves the same in equal measure.

Tiktaalik said:
The Bill 21 stuff is a real wild card. I think it has the potential to take over the election much like the niqab issue dominated the 2015 election.

The Liberals, Greens and Conservatives are all pandering to Quebec by half-denouncing the bill, but being oh so hesitant to actually say they'd do anything as PM. Singh I believe has come out much more forcefully but I don't know what the policy of the NDP is in Quebec here as I read their campaign is being run somewhat independently.

If I were Singh I'd just go all out fully against Bill 21 and call it for the bullshit that it is. He may lose the QC seats, but in trade he could make a good impression in the communities in the RoC that would be targeted by this bill if they happened to live in QC.

I can't find an actual reference to it, but Coyne said that the NDP also claimed that they wouldn't intervene on provincial matters. But again, I can't seem to find anything confirming it.
At the very least he called the bill for what it is... well, almost, by saying it was "divisive" instead of racist.

Vibranium · Sep 11, 2019

As someone who likes the idea of Green parties I really wish Elizabeth May would be replaced at this point. Problem is, she won't go until she retires and her successor will likely follow the exact same open tent idea. Wish there was a charismatic young progressive in charge.

Anyways, I'm in a safe NDP riding so I'll do my thing as usual. It's depressing to know they are going to get wiped, I can only hope somehow they can rebuild years later. I have zero hope for either though.

Kernel · Sep 11, 2019

firehawk12 said:
I don't disagree that politics is essentially one big compromise, but if we're supposed to give Scheer shit about his robotic non-answers on marriage equality and abortion, then surely Trudeau deserves the same in equal measure

The thing with Scheer isn't his personal beliefs (they're obvious).

It's that he promised one thing to his party and activists and is publicly saying another. And you know that the pro-life movement and social conservatives will never give up on this ever.

Hidden agenda.

gutter_trash · Sep 12, 2019

Camel said:
gutter_trash right now:

that was me in the last 24 hours with all this bullshit from Elizabeth May's bold face lie about MP Nantel.
May says that Nantel isn't a seperatist, but then Nantel yells out lout on QUB Radio (the day before that he is for Separation Right Now. Fuck the Greens.
Radio host Dutrizac asked Nantel to clarify his statement, Nantel doubled down and tripped down on his SEPARATISM.

oh, remeber this post BEFORE the revelation?

gutter_trash said:
Nantel is not a candidate you would want

He's a Bloc lifer who was picked by TomAss Mulcair as NDP candidate for St_Hubert, won in 2015 but then crossed the floor to the Greens when he saw public opinion in Quebec turn against religious head gear.

Nantel is not a man of conviction, he just wants a public paycheck

St-Hubert will either go back to Bloc or go Liberal

CitizenVectron said:
Gutter, stop being a child.

CitizenVectron said:
Green candidate in Quebec says there should be secession as quickly as possible:

https://twitter.com/stphnmaher/status/1171523472834433025?s=19

I believe you owe me an apology ;)

Kernel said:
Time for the daily Green Party fuck up.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/amp/e...nantel-separatist_ca_5d793b45e4b0a938a42cf7b1

Oh Liz, the audio doesn't lie

https://www.qub.radio/balado/dutriz...vue-avec-pierre-nantel-le-parti-vert-courtise

gutter_trash · Sep 12, 2019

Vamphuntr said:
François Legault's open challenge on day 1 to Trudeau is really something. I don't think it's really wise at all. It was not a winning issue for Marois at the provincial level so I don't see why now it would be at the federal level. Still it's pretty interesting as he's obviously trying to stop him (and to a lesser extent Scheer) from playing both sides on that issue.

Michel David in Le Devoir was saying last week that both a Trudeau and Scheer majority would be bad for him and that his best option was minority government. Seems it's pretty on point.

The SNC stuff never ends. Jesus. Now we know the government blocked the RCMP investigation ( I guess they're trying to save face after the embarrassing Norman investigation they had done).

oh yeah, Fuck premier François Legault for interjecting himself into Day 1 of the Federal Election campaign with a poison pill, fuck nationalistes

I agree with Michel David's analysis though, the Bloc will hurt the Conservatives more than the Liberals on Right Wing Nationalist Votes.
Everyone knows who Trudeau is, so Right Wing Ethno-Nationalissss are just going to divide between Conservative, Bloc and Mad Max PPC.

----------

weirder said:

this specific riding poll is significant for the Bloc Leader, Monsieur Nationaliste who is trailing in 2nd place in his own riding.
---

edit:
NDP candidate quits in LaSalle-Émard-Verdun due to allegations of spousal abuse / domestic violence:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ndp-montreal-candidate-olivier-mathieu-steps-down-1.5280411

Tiktaalik · Sep 12, 2019

firehawk12 said:
I can't find an actual reference to it, but Coyne said that the NDP also claimed that they wouldn't intervene on provincial matters. But again, I can't seem to find anything confirming it.
At the very least he called the bill for what it is... well, almost, by saying it was "divisive" instead of racist.

This video popped up in my twitter feed a moment ago. A pretty strong and unequivocal condemnation. Singh does to be seem the most forcefully against Bill 21. Whether that means he's gonna promise to have the Feds intervene if he were PM would be a big differentiation from the other candidates if he goes that far.

firehawk12 · Sep 12, 2019

Tiktaalik said:
This video popped up in my twitter feed a moment ago. A pretty strong and unequivocal condemnation. Singh does to be seem the most forcefully against Bill 21. Whether that means he's gonna promise to have the Feds intervene if he were PM would be a big differentiation from the other candidates if he goes that far.

Yeah, that's the clip from today that I saw too.

Maybe Coyne is just stirring shit up because that's what he does. lol

Deleted member 49179 · Sep 12, 2019

Vibranium said:
Anyways, I'm in a safe NDP riding so I'll do my thing as usual. It's depressing to know they are going to get wiped, I can only hope somehow they can rebuild years later. I have zero hope for either though.

Yeah, I'm in a traditionally safe NDP riding also. Except this year I probably won't be voting for them. I think I'll vote Liberal. I absolutely don't see what voting NDP would accomplish in the current context. And I don't like the current state of the NDP at all.

gutter_trash · Sep 12, 2019

Signh will be the recipient of the wrath of Bill-21 ultra-nationalsite racist voters who will take it out on the NDP.

The main reason why the Bloc is getting a boost is all due to the resurgence of Ethnic-Natioanlisme, Provincial-Nationalisme, White-Nationalime in Quebec perpetrated by premier Legault.

The racist vote is being split between Conservatives vs Bloc vs PPC.

But the Conservatives pussy footed around the question of the bill today, so the Bloc will use that as a booster against the Cons.

Liberals already have the label of the "multicultralist" party as a pejorative out of the mouths of nationalsites.

Quebec politics is disgusting

Deleted member 49179 · Sep 12, 2019

gutter_trash said:
Signh will be the recipient of the wrath of Bill-21 ultra-nationalsite racist voters who will take it out on the NDP.

The main reason why the Bloc is getting a boost is all due to the resurgence of Ethnic-Natioanlisme, Provincial-Nationalisme, White-Nationalime in Quebec perpetrated by premier Legault.

The racist vote is being split between Conservatives vs Bloc vs PPC.

But the Conservatives pussy footed around the question of the bill today, so the Bloc will use that as a booster against the Cons.

Quebec politics is disgusting

What realistically makes you think the Bloc will get good results this time? In 2011 they got 4 seats, and 10 in 2015. We don't currently hear about the Bloc at all, and last time I checked the Liberals had quite a good reputation in most regions, except around Quebec City.

I might be wrong, but I really think that it might be way too early to announce the sudden resurrection of the Bloc.

gutter_trash · Sep 12, 2019

Static_Void said:
What realistically makes you think the Bloc will get good results this time? In 2011 they got 4 seats, and 10 in 2015. We don't currently hear about the Bloc at all, and last time I checked the Liberal had quite a good reputation in most regions, except around Quebec City.

I might be wrong, but I really think that it might be way too early to announce the sudden resurrection of the Bloc.

The Bloc is polling between 15% 18% and as high as 20% in recent polls, the surge of NATIONALISME perpetrated by the provincial government and premier has given nationalisme a huge boost and the Bloc is running with it.

Conservatives used to be polling in 2nd place, now the Bloc is competing to steal the 2nd place from the Conservatives.

listen to french language media, the anti-immigrant rhetoric has been dialed to 11 since the election of the CAQ provincially

don't look at me, I voted for the Quebec Liberals in the last provincial election.

---
latest Leger September 11 poll (FEDERAL)

https://www.lapresse.ca/elections-f...ateurs-pratiquement-a-egalite-selon-leger.php

QC
LPC 37 %
CPC 22 %
BQ 21 %
GRN 10 %
NDP 6 %
PPC 5 %

ON
LPC 37 %
CPC 31
NDP 15 %
GRN 15%
PPC 2 %

National
CPC 35%
LPC 34%
NDP 11 %
GRN 11%
PPC 3%

*edit* added Ontario because Ontario matters

SRG01 · Sep 12, 2019

gutter_trash said:
The Bloc is polling between 15% 18% and as high as 20% in recent polls, the surge of NATIONALISME perpetrated by the provincial government and premier has given nationalisme a huge boost and the Bloc is running with it.

Conservatives used to be polling in 2nd place, now the Bloc is competing to steal the 2nd place from the Conservatives.

listen to french language media, the anti-immigrant rhetoric has been dialed to 11 since the election of the CAQ provincially

don't like at me, I voted for the Quebec Liberals in the last provincial election.

---
latest Leger poll

https://www.lapresse.ca/elections-f...ateurs-pratiquement-a-egalite-selon-leger.php

QC
LPC 37 %
CPC 22 %
BQ 21 %.
GRN 10 %
NDP 6 %
PPC 5 %.

National
CPC 35%
LPC 34%
NDP 11 %
GRN 11%
PPC 3%

CPC and BQ percentages makes me think that the Liberals can steal some Blue seats by coming up the middle.

gutter_trash · Sep 12, 2019

SRG01 said:
CPC and BQ percentages makes me think that the Liberals can steal some Blue seats by coming up the middle.

yup, because Liberals are alone in their own lane there.

Prax · Sep 12, 2019

You think the Green Party or its supporters might head into "racism: is it environmentally sustainable?" and "green sexism: how making women stay at home reduces carbon emissions" territory the way this is going? lol

The Bloc is already "racism, but hey at least we like social welfare and universal healthcare?" party probably.

Hycran · Sep 12, 2019

As bad as the Bloc identity politic shit is, at least people have a reason to vote for them (albeit an extremely bad one). What possible reason does anyone have to vote NDP in this election federally? This vote splitting will only lead to more minority BS with conservatives eventually weaseling their way back into power.

Prax · Sep 12, 2019

Yeah, the NDP need something better than "we're kinda like the Liberals but we'll actually be more socialist and ethical, promise!" Liberals at least also actually win in big numbers federally, so it's a hard sell. especially since Singh himself is a lot like Trudeau image-wise, when being less fashionably slick might have at least reinforced the working class edge NDP generally had.

djkimothy · Sep 12, 2019

Looming teachers strike might be an x factor.

Apathy · Sep 12, 2019

djkimothy said:
Looming teachers strike might be an x factor.

One of my close friends is a teacher here in Toronto. I asked her about a possible strike on Sunday. She said it hasn't come to that yet and that the teachers will use other things at their disposal first, specifically work to rule before they will go and strike

lupinko · Sep 12, 2019

Prax said:
Yeah, the NDP need something better than "we're kinda like the Liberals but we'll actually be more socialist and ethical, promise!" Liberals at least also actually win in big numbers federally, so it's a hard sell. especially since Singh himself is a lot like Trudeau image-wise, when being less fashionably slick might have at least reinforced the working class edge NDP generally had.

Yeah Singh would actually fit in better with the LPC.

Pomerlaw · Sep 12, 2019

Kernel said:
Trudeau says he is personally against abortion. But given where that issue stands with his base he doesn't reopen it.

WUT!?

Sign said:

Where is that from? Link?

Terra Firma · Sep 12, 2019

lupinko said:
Yeah Singh would actually fit in better with the LPC.

What... Singh's more left than Mulcair or Layton - and those two were decidedly not Liberals.

Prax · Sep 12, 2019

Terra Firma said:
What... Singh's more left than Mulcair or Layton - and those two were decidedly not Liberals.

I think we're talking about his "image" of progressive metropolitan man in suit, not his policies haha.

Layton (working class or small business owner dad) and Mulcair (angry man) looked rougher, less polished. It worked better for the NDP image of being salt-of-the-earth-for-the-working- class type of party. NDP right now doesn't really have a selling image/icon besides "better than Liberals". That's not enough in these meme times haha.

Moppeh · Sep 12, 2019

Pomerlaw said:
Where is that from? Link?

I originally saw that chart posted by a federal NDP candidate from Hamilton. Not sure if he was the original source of it but it looks accurate.

There are Wikipedia articles that list out newspaper endorsements from the past few elections. Here's 2015: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_2015_Canadian_federal_election

Hideo GOATjima · Sep 12, 2019

Pomerlaw said:
WUT!?

This has been pretty well known since like 2013. Difference between him and Scheer on this is that JT made supporting abortion mandatory for his entire party regardless of personal views, while Scheer has only said the cabinet ministers will be whipped. So in the case of a large CPC majority they could theoretically repeal it

Madison · Sep 12, 2019

Kernel said:
Trudeau says he is personally against abortion. But given where that issue stands with his base he doesn't reopen it.

gross

Deleted member 49179 · Sep 12, 2019

Kernel said:
Trudeau says he is personally against abortion. But given where that issue stands with his base he doesn't reopen it.

Any source for that?

Canadian Election 2019 |OT| One Long Year of Scheer Stupidity [Update: Liberal Minority Government]

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