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Canadian radio stations are pulling "Baby, It's Cold Outside" from their holiday playlists
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
Good wholesome family entertainment from Top of the Pops. Get the kids around the TV
Because for all intents and purposes, most of them have already been voluntarily excluded from several radio stations.
Canada has had a discussion about this with Dire Straits' "Money For Nothing" a while back and required significant debate before landing on the conclusion that it was up to radio stations themselves to make the call of whether or not to play it, since while it contains a hate speech slur, the song's context is that the song is meant to portray the words of a deplorable person who's jealous of the "easy" rock star lifestyle who we're not supposed to like or sympathize with and the use of that word re-enforces that.
Why would they extend the ban to a completely different song with entirely different lyrics from a band that just happens to include George Michael? That situation you're describing beggars belief.
If someone wanted to take that particular song off the radio, though, I wouldn't fight them on it and practically nothing of value would be lost.
2 additional things:
Yeah, Santa Baby has had a reputation for depicting women as materialistic gold-diggers using their feminine wiles to get what they want for a while now, so I imagine that's going to be the next one down. And I'm OK with that, if only because it's not a terribly great song.
Also, while a lot of the discussion is around the woman in this song, we haven't spent a lot of time about how the song re-enforces toxic masculinity.
Fellas defending this song, do you really want a song that furthers the stereotype that men view sex like a Man Scout merit badge and that a man's pride is so easily wounded by not getting with someone he wants to bone?
Yeah, Santa Baby has had a reputation for depicting women as materialistic gold-diggers using their feminine wiles to get what they want for a while now, so I imagine that's going to be the next one down. And I'm OK with that, if only because it's not a terribly great song.
Also, while a lot of the discussion is around the woman in this song, we haven't spent a lot of time about how the song re-enforces toxic masculinity.
Fellas defending this song, do you really want a song that furthers the stereotype that men view sex like a Man Scout merit badge and that a man's pride is so easily wounded by not getting with someone he wants to bone?
I'm just going to point out that you're free to post a thread or otherwise start a discussion about any other song that you find concerning. The existence of one conversation does not somehow mean that other conversation is not allowed to happen.
Why the shell game? Why can't you just say you support the removal of all problematic music from the radio? Do you think it's some sort of gotcha statement I'm after? Just looking for a little consistency.
Context is everything.
In this case, the context revolves around gender norms/standards in 1944. She's really does want to fuck him (maybe just a half a drink more) but she's so worried that everyone will think she's a slut.
On the other hand, in today's context it does sound rapey, or at least sounds like pressure and coercion (that much is certain in any context).
I'll say this: the song only comes under fire because of its association with Christmas. There are so, so many pop/rock/country/rap songs on the radio that are downright disgusting, implying or outright stating far worse (and many are actually considered "classics") and no one is pulling them from the stations.
Brown Sugar, how come you taste so good
Brown Sugar, just like a young girl should
That song.... yikes.
Or
You come on like a dream, peaches and cream
Lips like strawberry wine
You're sixteen, you're beautiful and you're mine
You're all ribbons and curls, ooh, what a girl
Eyes that sparkle and shine
You're sixteen, you're beautiful and you're mine
You're my baby, you're my pet
We fell in love on the night we met
You touched my hand, my heart went pop
Ooh, when we kissed I could not stop
You walked out of my dreams and into my arms
Now you're my angel divine
You're sixteen, you're beautiful and you're mine
More fun examples, many of them worse (rap is not subtle...)
https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/the-problematic-playlist-songs-with-questionable-lyric-1826656613
N.W.A - She Swallowed It
Holy shit, this song. Not sure if it was playrd on the radio but I know it was popular. Some samples:
Because the dumb bitch licks out the asshole
And she'll let you videotape her
And if you got a gang of niggas, the bitch would let you rape her
She likes suckin' on dicks, and lickin' up nut
And they even take the broomstick up the butt
Just to say that she did it with a rapper
But the pussy was more fishy than red snapper
"But how many licks would it take," she asks
"To make MC Ren start gooshin' up vanilla shakes?"
I couldn't see her face, all I saw was her pussy and her chest
I wanted to see the face, I felt I oughtta
Peep over the seat, Oh shit! It's the preacher's daughter!
And she's only 14 and a ho'
But the bitch sucks dick like a specialized pro
She looked at me, I was surprised
But wasn't passin' up the chance of my dick gettin' baptized
I told the bitch to do it quick
You little ho' hurry up and suck my dick!
In this case, the context revolves around gender norms/standards in 1944. She's really does want to fuck him (maybe just a half a drink more) but she's so worried that everyone will think she's a slut.
On the other hand, in today's context it does sound rapey, or at least sounds like pressure and coercion (that much is certain in any context).
I'll say this: the song only comes under fire because of its association with Christmas. There are so, so many pop/rock/country/rap songs on the radio that are downright disgusting, implying or outright stating far worse (and many are actually considered "classics") and no one is pulling them from the stations.
Brown Sugar, how come you taste so good
Brown Sugar, just like a young girl should
That song.... yikes.
Or
You come on like a dream, peaches and cream
Lips like strawberry wine
You're sixteen, you're beautiful and you're mine
You're all ribbons and curls, ooh, what a girl
Eyes that sparkle and shine
You're sixteen, you're beautiful and you're mine
You're my baby, you're my pet
We fell in love on the night we met
You touched my hand, my heart went pop
Ooh, when we kissed I could not stop
You walked out of my dreams and into my arms
Now you're my angel divine
You're sixteen, you're beautiful and you're mine
More fun examples, many of them worse (rap is not subtle...)
https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/the-problematic-playlist-songs-with-questionable-lyric-1826656613
N.W.A - She Swallowed It
Holy shit, this song. Not sure if it was playrd on the radio but I know it was popular. Some samples:
Because the dumb bitch licks out the asshole
And she'll let you videotape her
And if you got a gang of niggas, the bitch would let you rape her
She likes suckin' on dicks, and lickin' up nut
And they even take the broomstick up the butt
Just to say that she did it with a rapper
But the pussy was more fishy than red snapper
"But how many licks would it take," she asks
"To make MC Ren start gooshin' up vanilla shakes?"
I couldn't see her face, all I saw was her pussy and her chest
I wanted to see the face, I felt I oughtta
Peep over the seat, Oh shit! It's the preacher's daughter!
And she's only 14 and a ho'
But the bitch sucks dick like a specialized pro
She looked at me, I was surprised
But wasn't passin' up the chance of my dick gettin' baptized
I told the bitch to do it quick
You little ho' hurry up and suck my dick!
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This is just corporate bullshit marketing. An exhaustive list of the far more demeaning songs allowed to remain on the air would be fun to laugh at.
Since when has Snow been a christmas song? It's about getting clean from cocaine and heroin and staying clean lol
Until this thread I also had a negative perception of the song and thought it was about rape. I think because I've never listened to it outside of a movie or when its playing over store speakers. I hate most Christmas music and never gave it enough focus to actually think about the lyrics beyond "jeez he is really pushy and she sounds like she just wants to leave".
The better analysis in this thread has completely changed my perspective.
The better analysis in this thread has completely changed my perspective.
For starters is not being removed from the radio It is being removed from a Few stations. Looking for consistency well then why don't you have an issue with christian stations not playing Eminem? Stop overflowing the issue, just let the station be and listen to the song trough other station's or itunes.
What are you even trying to do here. "Problematic" is incredibly subjective. Do I wish there were less misogynistic songs on the radio? Yes and I wish radio stations would pick and choose songs that have less or none of it. But I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
Man, that was just a joke in the light of, say, the recent calls to boycott the whole lovecraftian horror genre because of the author's ideas and other such exhortations to dismiss some artist's entire production because of their stance on certain topics.
The original quote I posted made a joke pointing out that most people raising a fuss about this will gladly go back to listening to music filled with other misogynistic tones without batting an eye. I simply expanded on that and was asking if those in favor of removing this song support removal of all offensive songs. Why stop at one? But everyone seems to dance around saying all offensive music should be removed.
That's because literally no one is saying it. You just weirdly believe we are for some reason. Again, "offensive" and "problematic" are almost meaningless descriptors in this context. I still have no clue as what point you're trying to make.
If someone listen to music that has some music misogyny in it, they're now disallowed from voicing their opinion about whether or not a song that can easily be mistaken as rape in which the man is exerting his power over the woman.. Should be played by a radio station?
Has anyone talked about the lyrics referring to his hurt pride and whatnot? I think that's the only issue I have with the song, since the man's verse is dripping with toxic masculinity.
Don't bother engaging with that poster, it's not a good-faith argument. People do this all the time, pretend to critique any kind of advocacy or social change because it isn't perfect or consistent enough, when their real goal is to deflect from the current discussion to shut it down.
You realize that when you put the song in context, the woman in it really wants to stay but is actually struggling against that time's cultural and societal norms, as well as an overbearing and controlling family?
That's why in it, at the end, the duet combines and they both sing "It's cold outside", among other things.
This thread changed my mind on this song. My wife and I had been calling it The creepy guy song. But yeah, seems like she wanted to stay and he was helping her with excuses.
OP
OP
This is likely a big part of their rationale behind the pull for anyone wondering why they haven't nuked half of rap and metal from the airwaves.
A lot more wide-ranging people are more likely to turn the radio on this Christmas for this particular playlist that's gonna be running for almost the entire day part of the day, whereas you really have to actively look for any other genre this season (if you even bother considering the internet 'n all). Does that itself justify pull? Eh, it's kinda shaky reasoning and there's still a whole argument to be made for the visibility of more modern songs + their problematic lyrics. But that's the best guess I can come up regarding this.
Either way, I'm not gonna miss the song even with some of the context explanations being thrown around this thread. I still find it rather off-putting.
Also, minor update, Corus Entertainment has also followed suit.
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Why publicly announce they are pulling the song? They just ensured that WAY more people listen to it with an ear towards the lyrics and either decide the radio station is goofy or that yeah, this is a creepy song. Just cut it and don't say anything and there would be no issue as there are dozens of other winter/holiday songs to play. So it sounds more like a publicity stunt than an actual attempt to clean up their playlists, especially if it doesn't extend to all their songs (like damn near every 80's hair metal song).
And in 50 years stuff like "Hit me baby one more time" are gonna need the same contextual explanation. Though I seem to recall some debate about the lyrics even then the song was released. Even things like "Genie in a bottle" with the line "you gotta rub me the right way" implies that the woman's consent depends on what the man does, and that there is a trial and error component (the rest of the lyrics reinforce this) that encourages persistence despite initial failure. MANY songs have very problematic lyrics and messages, but the question is, does anyone (other than a very few) actually listen to them and consider what the message actual is?
And in 50 years stuff like "Hit me baby one more time" are gonna need the same contextual explanation. Though I seem to recall some debate about the lyrics even then the song was released. Even things like "Genie in a bottle" with the line "you gotta rub me the right way" implies that the woman's consent depends on what the man does, and that there is a trial and error component (the rest of the lyrics reinforce this) that encourages persistence despite initial failure. MANY songs have very problematic lyrics and messages, but the question is, does anyone (other than a very few) actually listen to them and consider what the message actual is?
These songs don't have a good message to them so I'm glad they are being pulled across ABC and other places. Not of our time.
I love how catchy "Baby, It's Cold Outside" is but clearly has disturbing lyrics. Maybe someone can write an alternative version?
I get why the song is being pulled, but people need to set some priorities to more important issues occurring in the world instead of focusing on a song that was created in the 50's.
All these posts but not one with the scene from Neptune's Daughter (a romantic comedy and musical) where it was first popularized.
EDIT:
Copy and paste from the Wiki entry for it.
EDIT:
Copy and paste from the Wiki entry for it.
Because "she wants it" is an adequate justification to ignore someone saying no, amirite?
Again, as I said earlier in the thread, the man in this song has (either unknowingly or willfully) put her in the impossible position of either persisting with blatantly saying no to a man's advances, which was unheard of in the 1940s, or risking being branded a slut and shunned for life by her family and peers, which is the least terrible thing that happened to women branded that way in the 1940s. And neither situation has a happy ending in the "historical context" people love to bang on about.
And again you are leaving the whole context off.
This was written by a couple (married) duet, obviously to be sung by engaged / dating people in the context of the 40s.
If anything, the song is actually progressive because it features a Woman going against the societal norm of the times, and although saying No to cover the appearances of what is expected of her by society and her family, she very much wants to stay and even uses the common (back then) excuse for "inappropriate" behavior that the drink must contain more alcohol than she thought. But-but date rape pill right? In a 1940's song to be played at parties by a married couple?
Sigh.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/19/baby-its-cold-outside-was-once-an-anthem-for-progressive-women-what-happened/
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I wouldn't inherently take this as an excuse . If the song said hey quit grabbing me. But c'mon doll don't be such a prude .... it would be offensive anyway
But if you read into the times and speech of the time it could be regarding the double standard of people talking about women. And what's in this drink is almost certainly not a date rape drug reference as they likely had no such drug but a way of saying the drink is strong or an excuse why I'm acting a certain way
It can be a rape-y sounding song in the average context and radio stations banning it for the sake of uncomfortable listeners leaving feedback seems like a fair business decision, arguments about original context and lamentations about current society aside.
Stupid people have been banning art for puritanical and uneducated ideological reasons for a long time. It's one of things humans are really good at.
And ruin everything by not trying to recreate the childhood Christmas visions of baby boomers every year? We already let Mariah Carey slip through. Have you gone mad?
It used to be funny when people took a premise of a benign and fairly innocent cartoon or song and turn it into something else.
It's like a Mad Magazine lampoon.
Now there are people out there who actually believe the willful misinterpretations as if they are discovering some sinister plot to warp the minds of society, when the willful misinterpretation was always a fabrication made up on a lark.
On another note, discovering Rudolph's first act is an allegory for racism and sexism in America now is not a revelatory observation. That was on the surface in the 1960s along with all the imitators who wrote along this same theme in children's cartoons and animation.
It's like a Mad Magazine lampoon.
Now there are people out there who actually believe the willful misinterpretations as if they are discovering some sinister plot to warp the minds of society, when the willful misinterpretation was always a fabrication made up on a lark.
On another note, discovering Rudolph's first act is an allegory for racism and sexism in America now is not a revelatory observation. That was on the surface in the 1960s along with all the imitators who wrote along this same theme in children's cartoons and animation.
I have mixed feelings about this song being removed from the radio ..
On the one hand I never much payed attention to the lyrics and having since read them, that line about the drink is all kinds of yikes...
On the other hand, this song is featured in my favorite Christmas movie, Elf, performed by Zooey Deschanel and Will Farrel, and I'd hate to see the movie need to be censored for TV.
On the one hand I never much payed attention to the lyrics and having since read them, that line about the drink is all kinds of yikes...
On the other hand, this song is featured in my favorite Christmas movie, Elf, performed by Zooey Deschanel and Will Farrel, and I'd hate to see the movie need to be censored for TV.
Radio stations deciding not to play songs for moral reasons is censorship. This is even more blatant when the radio station is owned by a sovereign nation.
The CBC, Rogers, and Bell banning a song is censorship. The BBC used to make or break artists. If you had objectionable material like references to illegal narcotics, your recording career was shot and your single would never hit the charts.
You have a misunderstanding of what radio censorship is and how the consolidation of radio stations in the 90s made censorship much easier.
In this particular circumstance, Baby It's Cold Outside is already established as a classic covered by many of the greatest Jazz singers of the 20th century and a song which has proven its merit to be on rotation. So, that's something we don't have to worry about. I believe you are objectively wrong in this circumstance though.
Choosing to remove a song from a particular playlist is not censorship. They're exercising their free speech in taking a stance on the content in the song. They're not pretending like it doesn't exist or keeping anyone from actually hearing said song, or hiding it. They decided to keep it off of their own playlists for ethical reasons.
Nothing is stopping anybody from playing it in the comfort of their own home or from knowing the song or its history.. or from playing it out in public.
I agree that the drink line is overblown. But the disregard for consent is still present and the fact that they ended up married is not worthy of creating an exemption. Again, it's the 1940s, unmarried women were considered a blight on society at worst and a cautionary tale at best.
The article you posted both downplays and re-enforces the importance of a woman's reputation at the same time; the article itself states its a fear for a reason, but then blows right past why it would be as though it didn't require consideration. The man doesn't consider the cost of what he's asking of her. Her reputation is all that would protect her from being "one of those girls" who "was asking for it". That these phrases in quotes are still used to justify assault in the 21st century should tell you the seriousness of the preservation of her reputation in the 1940s.
Also, let's not pretend that married women weren't asked to go along with the institutional sexism of the era. There's mountains of evidence to suggest that they were. In addition to that, the song was sold for use in a movie by Mr. Loesser without consulting his wife, as mentioned above, who was vocally upset with her husband's decision to essentially sell a song about their courtship without consulting her. So progressive.