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Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,206
You mean their illegal market selling stolen copies of capcom's games? Capcom is muscling into that market?

Yup , The way people justify piracy in this thread is fkin appalling.

So many "Why buy this when you get this with 10000 stolen roms". The issue is people are so used to getting these games for free that they think these games are now somehow worth less by default.

Just checked on Amazon and the most popular sticks with all Sanwa parts cost $200. And they are just one player. I don't see how this product is supposed to be a ripoff. The design might not be good or appeal to everyone but the price seems ok.
 
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Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Yup , The way people justify piracy in this thread is fkin appalling.

So many "Why buy this when you get this with 10000 stolen roms". The issue is people are so used to getting these games for free that they think these games are now somehow worth less by default.

Just checked on Amazon and the most popular sticks with all Sanwa parts cost $200. And they are just one player. I don't see how this product is supposed to be a ripoff. The design might not be good or appeal to everyone but the price seems ok.

As I stated before, the actual price of the hardware aligns with market value for Sawna Joysticks/parts but overall the product is a fucking joke when considering how pitiful the game lineup is.

It's really strange that Capcom opted for such quality and authenticity with the sticks but then treated the actual game offerings like an afterthought.

They have an internal catalog of IP's they could use to make this a much more attractive product but for whatever reason they seemed to think AvP alone will get the enthusiasts through the door.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Yup , The way people justify piracy in this thread is fkin appalling.

So many "Why buy this when you get this with 10000 stolen roms". The issue is people are so used to getting these games for free that they think these games are now somehow worth less by default.

Just checked on Amazon and the most popular sticks with all Sanwa parts cost $200. And they are just one player. I don't see how this product is supposed to be a ripoff. The design might not be good or appeal to everyone but the price seems ok.

Some people for sure, especially a lot of shit posters in the first couple pages. However the only reason pandora came up in the last couple pages is by those trying to prove that this is a compelling product selling to a specific market. I'm just saying that comparing an illegal pirate product and an official one in this case are apples to oranges with respect to the addressable market.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
It just makes me wonder who is working on this as every other stick that comes with Sanwa or Sanwa-like parts has a square gate. Like it's a foregone conclusion that you'd have a square gate in a sanwa stick.

It feels like you had a few people who actually had experience doing this kind of thing leave a set of bullet points on a whiteboard, taking for granted what kind of product they had in mind but not literally spelling it out, only to hand the project over to a group of people who had absolutely no idea what they were doing.

There are a number of good features wrapped up inside of some really bizarre design decisions.

We saw with the PS Classic how this kind of thing can be done wrong and it would seem like a shame if that was to happen all over again.
Square gate is mostly an FGC thing though, which is clearly not the focus of this thing. A lot of people prefer octogates for shmups and beatemups.
 

Dache

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,129
UK
Some people for sure, especially a lot of shit posters in the first couple pages. However the only reason pandora came up in the last couple pages is by those trying to prove that this is a compelling product selling to a specific market. I'm just saying that comparing an illegal pirate product and an official one in this case are apples to oranges with respect to the addressable market.

It's not, though. The vast majority of people who might buy this don't care that the Pandora's Box isn't totally legal, and really isn't fazed about playing 20+ year old games on MAME if they have to. The amount of people in this thread clutching their pearls at the idea that people would instead just emulate AvP on MAME is ridiculous considering that's exactly what 99% of them have been doing all this time, including the majority of those in this thread who have already played it. People's willingness to pirate is a matter of accessibility, as goes the popular mantra. Capcom are failing to provide a legit service that's better than existing illegal ones and people are responding to that appropriately.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
It's not, though. The vast majority of people who might buy this don't care that the Pandora's Box isn't totally legal, and really isn't fazed about playing 20+ year old games on MAME if they have to. The amount of people in this thread clutching their pearls at the idea that people would instead just emulate AvP on MAME is ridiculous considering that's exactly what 99% of them have been doing all this time, including the majority of those in this thread who have already played it. People's willingness to pirate is a matter of accessibility, as goes the popular mantra. Capcom are failing to provide a legit service that's better than existing illegal ones and people are responding to that appropriately.
I totally agree that it's not a compelling product. But I don't need to compare it to pirate products to prove that. Just compare it to the Neo Geo mini or the other recent classic consoles.

Saying that "it's a bad deal compared to stealing" as an argument is stupid because that will literally always be true no matter how many games they put on it.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,206
It's not, though. The vast majority of people who might buy this don't care that the Pandora's Box isn't totally legal, and really isn't fazed about playing 20+ year old games on MAME if they have to. The amount of people in this thread clutching their pearls at the idea that people would instead just emulate AvP on MAME is ridiculous considering that's exactly what 99% of them have been doing all this time, including the majority of those in this thread who have already played it. People's willingness to pirate is a matter of accessibility, as goes the popular mantra. Capcom are failing to provide a legit service that's better than existing illegal ones and people are responding to that appropriately.
This makes no sense. How does anyone compete with piracy ? Unless they are just willing to give away their games for free.

Why do people buy their games on Steam with DRM and shit when they could just pirate the game and enjoy better performance too. Stuff like Pandoras Box only need to focus on hardware they can put w/e games they want in there.

Edit : Just looked it up. Pandoras Box is currently on sale for $275 and is normally sold for $399.
If Capcom is selling this for 200-250. I don't see how its a bad value , Especially when most fight sticks retail for $200. The main issue here is the design.
 
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GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,481
This is such a weird product in so many ways and I don't see who this is for. We can talk about if the price is too high, if the logo design is terrible or the game selection being underwhelming, but the fact is that anyone wanting to buy it needs to overcome all these issues since it's a self contained device.

Even if it's good as a fighting stick you are still stuck with the built in games and you cannot connect it to another device of your choice, so you have a €200+ device that plays a very small selection of games and is shaped as a corporate logo, I imagine that target demographic is pretty small.
 

Dache

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,129
UK
I totally agree that it's not a compelling product. But I don't need to compare it to pirate products to prove that. Just compare it to the Neo Geo mini or the other recent classic consoles.

Saying that "it's a bad deal compared to stealing" as an argument is stupid because that will literally always be true no matter how many games they put on it.

I do agree that you can't compare it to just downloading MAME and the ROMs on your PC, where there's no requirement to buy a physical item, but you totally can and should compare it to the comparable Pandora's Box products regardless of their copyright infringment. They're physical products that cost money and provide the same base service of playing retro arcade games on your modern TV with built-in controls. The fact that the games on the system are there illegally is irrelevant - the product exists and people pay for it to own one.

You're right that Capcom could therefore never compete on the sheer amount of games on a PB, as it contains Neo Geo and other titles, but they can offer other improvements. The first is simply good controls, so Sanwa is a great choice, but the reaction to the case itself shows how much they missed the mark there. They could've offered better emulation than the shite PB boards. The fact that it's an official, legal option could offset the fact it doesn't have the amount of games a PB has, but they can do better than bloody 16.

This makes no sense. How does anyone compete with piracy ? Unless they are just willing to give away their games for free.

Why do people buy their games on Steam with DRM and shit when they could just pirate the game and enjoy better performance too.

Ease of access. Single-click running with no configuration. Better emulation. Included extras such as behind the scenes info, like what they did with SF30th. There is plenty Capcom can do to compete with piracy. Piracy doesn't mean things are always easy to obtain or set up and therefore automatically better. Plus, I was mostly referring to the idea that the Home Arcade shouldn't be compared to other physical arcade products like Pandora's Box's, as above. Pure software options are difficult to compete against, but it's not impossible.
 

Mugy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,424
An arcade stick for modern consoles costs $200. And this is TWO of those. I understand criticism of the games, but the price won't come down simply because the hardware is such a big part of it.
It is even confirmed that this thing works as a proper Arcade Stick anyway? i mean, i'm all about these kinda of things, so if this can be used for fighting games AND can also be moded...I'll might just bite :P. It kinda has his charm... Its just the design that its ugly and bulky as hell (im sure there's had to be a way to pay homage to Capcom legacy in a different way. Even if there were gonna go with the Stick way, why do a big CAPCOM logo with button layouts?). I also understand why people its kinda itchy with the fact that the only way to play AvP (at least legally), its either owning the CPS2 motherboard, or buying this thing
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,206
Ease of access. Single-click running with no configuration. Better emulation. Included extras such as behind the scenes info, like what they did with SF30th. There is plenty Capcom can do to compete with piracy. Piracy doesn't mean things are always easy to obtain or set up and therefore automatically better. Plus, I was mostly referring to the idea that the Home Arcade shouldn't be compared to other physical arcade products like Pandora's Box's, as above. Pure software options are difficult to compete against, but it's not impossible.

Adding more options software wise == more development time needed and budget needed. It might force them to raise the price even further.

The only attractive thing they could do that isn't already on emulators is add Online play and Leaders boards like SF 30th Anniv. But since this isnt on PS,Xbox..etc. They would have to make up their own online service just for this ? They could add behind the scenes info and artwork..etc. But I really cant think of anything else modern emulators can't already do.

I do agree that you can't compare it to just downloading MAME and the ROMs on your PC, where there's no requirement to buy a physical item, but you totally can and should compare it to the comparable Pandora's Box products regardless of their copyright infringment. They're physical products that cost money and provide the same base service of playing retro arcade games on your modern TV with built-in controls. The fact that the games on the system are there illegally is irrelevant - the product exists and people pay for it to own one.

But PB costs more than This device. At least from what i checked online. We dont know the specs of either.
 

Mugy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,424
What are those Pandora's Box products you guys are talking? I'm kinda curious
 

Dache

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,129
UK
Adding more options software wise == more development time needed and budget needed. It might force them to raise the price even further.

The price is coming from the hardware, which I think most of us agree is fair for the quality of the materials. The main issue (leaving the case design aside) is the lack of games to back that up, as good as AvP and Progear are. Simply adding more games they already own all the rights to wouldn't drastically increase the development time or complexity enough to cause a significant dent in how much they'd charge, because in the end, it's just FBAlpha, a single program that'll run any CPS2 ROM they throw at it. At most, they'd have to add the entries to whatever game list it has and QA would have more work to do, which is actually probably the most expensive part.

But PB costs more than This device. At least from what i checked online. We dont know the specs of either.

Well, I just found one through Google in about a minute that advertised itself as having 800 games for about £230 (obviously I won't link it here), which is around the same price. I can find them on Amazon for anywhere from £110 to £200 with varying sets of games. I don't own or want one, they're trash, but a large part of the potential audience for a device like this aren't so discerning.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
The price is coming from the hardware, which I think most of us agree is fair for the quality of the materials. The main issue (leaving the case design aside) is the lack of games to back that up, as good as AvP and Progear are. Simply adding more games they already own all the rights to wouldn't drastically increase the development time or complexity enough to cause a significant dent in how much they'd charge, because in the end, it's just FBAlpha, a single program that'll run any CPS2 ROM they throw at it. At most, they'd have to add the entries to whatever game list it has and QA would have more work to do, which is actually probably the most expensive part.



Well, I just found one through Google in about a minute that advertised itself as having 800 games for about £230 (obviously I won't link it here), which is around the same price. I can find them on Amazon for anywhere from £110 to £200 with varying sets of games. I don't own or want one, they're trash, but a large part of the potential audience for a device like this aren't so discerning.
Yep, and just sheer practicality. This thing is going to be bigger than my entire current entertainment setup, and I don't really want to devote that much space to a measly 16 games, no matter how good. And unless they allow you to daisy chain additional sticks to this thing, it's not even going to be the definitive experience since it's limited to 2 players.
 

Hoa

Member
Jun 6, 2018
4,295
Fuck, Progear is in this collection now it might be on my radar. Was hoping M2 would get a chance to port it to PS4 or something. Probably still going to wait on that possibility.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
This makes no sense. How does anyone compete with piracy ? Unless they are just willing to give away their games for free.

Why do people buy their games on Steam with DRM and shit when they could just pirate the game and enjoy better performance too. Stuff like Pandoras Box only need to focus on hardware they can put w/e games they want in there.

Edit : Just looked it up. Pandoras Box is currently on sale for $275 and is normally sold for $399.
If Capcom is selling this for 200-250. I don't see how its a bad value , Especially when most fight sticks retail for $200. The main issue here is the design.

This isn't being marketed as a premium joystick, it's being marketed as a retro arcade system featuring Capcom games.

The problem is, it only has sixteen titles, most of which are readily available elsewhere.

For whatever reason, Capcom decided to embed these ROMS into an expensive joystick nobody asked for instead on focusing on the games everybody wants.

What's strange is that they could have very cheaply and easily added 30 or 40 additional games from their own IP stable and this would have gone from an oddity to an excellent value.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Fuck, Progear is in this collection now it might be on my radar. Was hoping M2 would get a chance to port it to PS4 or something. Probably still going to wait on that possibility.
Yeah I'm already locked in buying this because I'm an idiot capcom stan and I can't pass up AvP and Progear. My wife is going to kill me.

M2 ShotTriggers Progear is the dream though.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
187
I can't believe they licensed out AvP for a concept that has the premium build quality and price point of what seems like its made to be a limited run collectors piece.
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,094
What are those Pandora's Box products you guys are talking? I'm kinda curious

A Pandora Box is an arcade emulator system loaded up with pirated ROMs. There are many clone variations you can buy from Chinese sellers on ebay/amazon, but they all IIRC basically run off low-powered ARM SoC mobos and have okay-ish emulation quality.

They generally come in two variations: A plastic box ($100-150) containing the system with A/V outputs and controller inputs or a 2-player arcade stick ($150-200; usually with cheap, generic parts and low quality panel artwork).
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,158
Singapore
This makes no sense. How does anyone compete with piracy ? Unless they are just willing to give away their games for free.
By recognizing that competition isn't just about price. It's about providing what people want at a price point they are willing to pay. The former is what you compete with when looking at an underserved market that is currently served by pirated goods and services.

One drawback to piracy is quality control, which often isn't there and the experience depends on the effort of the consumer to figure out what to pirate to get the best quality experience.

Official goods and services can compete by recognizing what people like about a pirated thing outside of low/no cost. Is it something they cannot buy easily through legal means? Is it packaged in a particular way that makes it easy to use? Are there features not supported in official products? Finding these things out, and using official channels and resources to meet those consumer needs through an official product or service is how you compete with piracy.

Even when consumers have to pay more than they otherwise would for a pirated product, seeing an official product offer things they truly want will make the choice much more appealing.
 

OldDirtyGamer

Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,469
I think that would be cool to just hang on the wall . Not really interested in those games , but it's a cool collector's piece
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,120
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes.
Who in the blue hell would pay a few hundred bucks for a freaking logo?

Capcom must be extremely high on their own farts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,877
Man, I wish they'd just release AvP on its own if they have access to the license for a re-release. I was bummed that it wasn't on the Beat 'Em Up Collection, and it's one of my favorite arcade games ever.

Same goes for Capcom Sports Club. Great game! I wish they'd release it stand-alone instead of here. I'm not paying that much for this thing at all.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,158
Singapore
For two arcade sticks with quality parts? It's worth more than they are charging.
In terms of pure raw materials, sure. But in terms of practical value, this is parts for two quality arcade sticks assembled together in an ugly Frankenstein case, usable only with 16 selected games installed in this system. So I'm not sure it's really "worth" more than they are charging for most people.
 

Panzer Dragoon

Alt-account
Banned
Feb 8, 2019
32
Looks so nice and cool. So wish SEGA would follow suit and make an Astro Arcade stick with System 16/32 and ST-V ports on it, Revenge Of Death Adder, Die Hard Arcade, Arabian Fight, Soukyugurentai, Shinobi, RSG on it
 

Mugy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,424
Dunno if this was already posted, but according to MVG, Capcom is using FB Alpha ilegally in the Home Arcade. The original team didn't even knew Capcom was doing this:

 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
If the case and board are high quality, otherwise nah. Also a normal stick is usable for more than 16 games.
In terms of pure raw materials, sure. But in terms of practical value, this is parts for two quality arcade sticks assembled together in an ugly Frankenstein case, usable only with 16 selected games installed in this system. So I'm not sure it's really "worth" more than they are charging for most people.
Or likely usable on a PC with any other games, or on a console. It has a USB port just labeled "USB", so it can probably be used as a normal pair of controllers.
dZ1eylC.jpg
 
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Vagabond

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,318
United States
I could think of a thousand more interesting form factors. As much as I love Capcom and their logo, this thing is ugly.

It would've been cool if it was contained or hidden briefcase-style in one of the boxes reminiscent of their old Collectors Edition boxes.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,893
ATL
From reading the article on Kotaku, it makes a little more sense why this sick has so few games. Capcom's not even producing the stick. Koch Media and Deep Silver probably had to pay licensing fees to Capcom for their games.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Still no news for other territories? Wonder if they could be retooling it to respond to the backlash.
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,094
Still no news for other territories? Wonder if they could be retooling it to respond to the backlash.

I hope so. The stick we saw in the trailer was a CGI render, so maybe actual production hasn't started yet. It would look a lot more attractive if it was a standard rectangle design with a "CAPCOM" logo panel artwork than a logo shaped stick. Probably be cheaper to manufacture too.
 

JustinH

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
Did a search and didn't see a review thread. Saw this review from Nintendolife on SIFTD.

Seems strange to me that it only comes with a 2.5 m HDMI and micro-USB cable. Just thought seeing how large it is you'd want to put it on the floor kind of away from the television or, of course, on a coffee table. I guess it's good they just use standard HDMI and micro-usb cables then, but it'd still be nice it it came with cables long enough.

Also to note: TVs didn't seem to send enough power from their USB ports in their tests with two different sets. They either had to use the included brick or a portable battery thingy.

I honestly haven't been following this thing so I didn't know about how the FBA stuff "shook out." They talk about it in the article with the old FBAlpha people going to make FBNeo and quoting a Digital Foundry article where they talk to Koch about it and just sum it up with
This will no doubt become clear as the unit makes its way into the hands of players who then dig a little deeper under the hood, but for now, Koch clearly feels confident enough from a legal perspective to sell the unit.

Apparently the retro-bit USB Sega pads won't work with the USB port. That sucks.