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sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
If there's a system that's sooooo much better that's so much more feasible and would magically give so many people a better quality of life why doesn't someone else try it?

1. Nobody thinks socialism "magically" makes anything better.

2. Every time people have tried to institute socialism it's been blown to bits by imperialists or devolved into some form or another of capitalism because the material conditions that permit socialism were not yet in existence.

3. China and especially Russia are not socialist.

How much of the history of socialism do you actually know? Your post does not give me much confidence.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Comparing the rate of growth of individual income in Communist Eastern Europe versus Post-Communist Europe

Well, sure, but I'd say a lot of the reasons Eastern Europe could be considered impoverished would be related to the way they and the rest of the world were cordoned off, and even then it's more that they didn't have a lot of luxury goods; in fact because a lot of the region wasn't starving I'd say it's far to claim that a lot of the communist countries almost certainly did better during their existence than the developing wo-- wait, let's read some more of your comment before we get too far into the weeds

Selecting the developing world or least developed countries obviously shows some of the severe faults of capitalism in a global economy.

bruh
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
There are a few posters here who can legit talk about this from a position of authority but it's unfair to expect them to be the Socrates for every one of these threads. As it is, I think these threads should continue to be an opportunity for learning for people who don't have their fingers in their ears, but expecting a moderator to come in and lay down ground rules and turn it into a formal lecture is less than reasonable. People are here as a hobby, not to hold senior level poli-sci classes.

May I introduce you to democracy?

Ah here we go again with Chinese communism. I wish I could place a moratorium on this claim from anyone who has not actually lived or worked in China. China is state capitalist. The country is no more socialist than Sweden is but with much less human rights.

So our current corporatocracy/technoligarchy you mean?

All work very well to varying degrees and all are succumbing to waves of white nationalism (or in the specific case of Japan, Japanese nationalism). Except Norway I think.

It's ironic you bring up scale but don't consider that the Nordic model might not work at the scale of the US either by population, economy, or land area. Thinking everyone can just become Nordic overnight even though it's proven to work, while criticizing socialism/communism with the statement "why doesn't someone else just try it", shows me you're not really arguing in good faith. These things take time.

The first step to systemic change is convincing people change is possible, because we need their votes, and the US isn't even over that hurdle yet.

And what happens if the majority of the people in the US don't want what you want?
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
It is somewhat of an irony that a video denouncing capitalism is posted in YouTube, a platform that is in itself a very perfect example of capitalism at work :P

That's the other issue too in communism/Marxism where the system is deemed to be perfect/utopian, people are not allowed to criticize the system. Because in doing so it could lead to others doing the same and now you have a situation where the foundations of said system begin to crack. You can't have dissension in the ranks and everyone needs to be subservient to the "perfect system".

In capitalism, people are free to voice their issues with the system on the very platforms (like Youtube) created by the system if they want to.

If Youtube existed in a "state run" manner, you think they'd allow videos critical of the state to be run? Probably not.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
It is somewhat of an irony that a video denouncing capitalism is posted in YouTube, a platform that is in itself a very perfect example of capitalism at work :P
https://www.thewrap.com/youtube-reinstates-gavin-mcinnes-just-days-after-ban/
https://medium.com/@MediaManipulati...rithm-connects-the-u-s-far-right-9f1387ccfabd

CDgZs2m.jpg

That's the other issue too in communism/Marxism where the system is deemed to be perfect/utopian, people are not allowed to criticize the system. Because in doing so it could lead to others doing the same and now you have a situation where the foundations of said system begin to crack.
"If this Marxist Utopia was actually a dystopia, it wouldn't work!"
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
If by "work" you mean indoctrinating disaffected youth into white supremacy and misogyny, sure, it works.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
"It's ironic that protestors travel on roads to get to DC... roads built by very the GOVERNMENT they're protesting!"

No it fucking isn't. That's pointless pedantry.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
I don't see the US shifting massively, maybe they'll become more like Canada in the long time frame, but that's about it. There's too many people that simply don't like a heavy state-run type of government (for better or worse) in the US.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
The US electorate is made up of idiots, they have no idea what they want. They want a balanced budget, then vote in Agent Orange to raise the deficit to $1 trillion. They don't want Swedish socialism, but they would kill you if you tried to take away ACA or their SSI. They want states rights, but get upset when New York and California challenge Trump's racist immigration laws. They want a weak federal, but they think Trump should be able to do whatever he wants in office and they're puzzled that he's being hamstrung left and right.

It all comes down to how the idea is sold because US voters will buy anything as long as it makes them feel good.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
I can see capitalism probably fade out in about 100-150 years, but it will likely fizzle at the feet of technology, not another economic system.

Once things like a replicator is possible, welp, the means to produce anything kinda become moot. Once VR (or possibly even a holodeck) becomes life like, the need to want to physically travel to places goes down several notches. Etc. etc. etc.

Why work for a nice house/car when you can just program that into a life like VR or holodeck program and have it be even 10x better than what you could get in real life.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,508
Bandung Indonesia
Which one of them can reach a large number of people and isn't owned by a megacorporation?

Oh I don't know, maybe publish an article somewhere, I'm sure plenty of online publications available that deal with this sort of thing.

It's not a big deal, really, it's just a bit of an irony.

"It's ironic that protestors travel on roads to get to DC... roads built by very the GOVERNMENT they're protesting!"

No it fucking isn't. That's pointless pedantry.

More like a person claiming that meat is harmful to the planet eating and ordering a big Mac at a nearby McDonald because he's hungry and can't be bothered to find a vegan restaurant :P Or someone who is advocating for save the planet campaign uses jets to go places because he find it most convenient instead of using other more eco-friendly modes of transportation.

It's just a bit of a funny thing. In the end, convenience more often than not does trump everything, even one's principle. I guess we all do it in some degree though.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I can see capitalism probably fade out in about 100-150 years, but it will likely fizzle at the feet of technology, not another economic system.

This is textbook Marxism.

(except the fade out)

Edit: rereading that, nevermind. If the materials used to produce VR are owned by capitalists then capitalism functions. You still need food, power sources, development, etc. VR is an eacape. It does nothing about production.

But Marxism says that capitalism can only be done away with through technological advancement.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
That's just technology, that's not really an economic system.

I amended my post when I reread it, because at first I thought you were saying capitalism would transform into something else because of tech. It will. But it's either going to turn into fascism, socialism, or something we don't know yet. VR does not change the base elements of production.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Sphagnum is referring to the Marxist idea that capitalism is inherently self disruptive (see: Silicon Valley), and provided enough technological advancement can eventually destroy itself. That is, within the drive for technological advancement is planted the seeds of its own dissolution.
Marx said:
The lower strata of the middle class—the small tradespeople, shopkeepers, retired tradesmen generally, the handicraftsmen and peasants—all these sink gradually into the proletariat, partly because their diminutive capital does not suffice for the scale on which Modern Industry is carried on, and is swamped in the competition with the large capitalists, partly because their specialized skill is rendered worthless by the new methods of production. Thus the proletariat is recruited from all classes of the population.

- The Communist Manifesto
In real terms:
Chains replace mom and pop stores
Megachains replace/absorb smaller chains
Amazon replaces megachains

Every disruption pushes more of the middle class into the lower class. Does anything replace Amazon? No one knows. There's a chance that Amazon is struck down by regulatory organizations and a chance that Amazon grows to own most of the world's infrastructure, turning Bezos' lineage into an effective global dynasty. Human labor will lose most of its worth in our lifetime, whatever comes after will be utterly alien since our society up to now has been predicated on the universality of wage labor.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,377
Well, sure, but I'd say a lot of the reasons Eastern Europe could be considered impoverished would be related to the way they and the rest of the world were cordoned off, and even then it's more that they didn't have a lot of luxury goods; in fact because a lot of the region wasn't starving I'd say it's far to claim that a lot of the communist countries almost certainly did better during their existence than the developing wo-- wait, let's read some more of your comment before we get too far into the weeds



bruh
That relevant to how it's currently practiced, which I mentioned in the part you cut out. Neoliberalism has hurt the developing world, but domestically and regionally there are benefits to the adopting capitalism. Also, alternative approaches to handling economies in other countries can and should be taken, it's just that functionally there aren't really any being practiced that are benefitical for countries; I'm talking about the root form of capitalism in my defense of it, meaning who holds the means of production. I do think government needs to intervene conscience of development, but anything beyond that becomes a pipedream.
 

Dingens

Circumventing ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,018
even after countless threads, most people still don't seem to understand basic concepts and terms. Capitalist and anti-communist propaganda are the best thing that could ever happen to the elite.
Capitalism and Socialism are not polar opposites in all possible ways, not even close. The main difference lies in who owns the means of productions. It does not say that there can't be a profit motive. It just says that people who work at a factory should own said factory.
And another misconception seems to concern European regulated capitalism, aka social democracy. Which is nice on paper but still capitalistic in nature. The only difference is, that the entire nation becomes the capitalist, and the "working class" is outsourced to developing countries. It's not a system viable for the entire world because you always need someone you can exploit. Also it does not solve capitalist inherent contradictions and capital cumulation is going to happen and it will undermine the system, as it is happening in Europe since the 90s and the new labour/neo-liberal wave.
Just as the video in question suggested. (neo) liberals and fascists are natural allies and it's no coincidence that governments right-wing coalitions also involve "liberal" parties as soon as the opportunity arises.

Oh, yeah, and you don't need capitalism for video games. The entire indie scene is basically socialism. And before steam, the "indie" scene in Europe was also quite big, despite not even having a profit motive. Especially the RPG Maker community was prosperous
 

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
We have universal healthcare and nationalized utilities here and we're still in capitalist system. You don't have to go either "full capitalist" or "full communism". As far I can see, no one in this thread has preached for full capitalism.

Why does everything has to be so black and white?
We're agreeing then. No one is going full communism/socialism either but knee jerk reactions have people posting as if there's nothing in between or you can't improve on what we have with a few changes to the current system.
 

Tremorah

Member
Dec 3, 2018
4,952
Not only does it not really elevate the poorest but thanks to rapid and unchecked capitalism and consumerism they will be the first to feel the effects of climate change so double fucked

But got to buy things and generate worth, right?
 

Fallout-NL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,710

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
Oh I don't know, maybe publish an article somewhere, I'm sure plenty of online publications available that deal with this sort of thing.

It's not a big deal, really, it's just a bit of an irony.



More like a person claiming that meat is harmful to the planet eating and ordering a big Mac at a nearby McDonald because he's hungry and can't be bothered to find a vegan restaurant :P Or someone who is advocating for save the planet campaign uses jets to go places because he find it most convenient instead of using other more eco-friendly modes of transportation.

It's just a bit of a funny thing. In the end, convenience more often than not does trump everything, even one's principle. I guess we all do it in some degree though.
Acknowledging meat production is bad for the environment doesn't mean a person needs to go vegan, it means they care about information.
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
Marxist are not born Marxists. We were liberals, we went through all the ideologies and convictions that you yourself reside in at this moment. I was a rightwing liberal, social liberal, Nordic social democrat and so on. It was through self-criticism that I forced myself to read more, to listen more. To question more and to think things through. Nordic Social Democracy sounded like heaven to me and it would still have sounded like haven if I would have build a bubble around my convictions.
Instead of doing that I started actually listening to people that lived in those societies, where I discovered the benefits and the downsides. Most importantly I encountered that they too have the same essential issues that you can't escape in Liberalism.
Capitalists are like cats, they will eat you once given the chance. Thanks to fluctuations in activism and participation, the weak moment always arrives for the working class and capitalist will and have to use that opportunity to strike back. They have to because they work in a market system, either they seize their opportunity or get out competed. Europe is the prime example and in 50 years will be more like America today if we keep up this path for this very reason.

-Marxism builds on the theory of liberal capitalism and acknowledges the purpose of the system, its benefits and its flaws and then tries to use the thesis and its antithesis to create a synthesis, which is socialism. After which another thesis-antithesis is needed for communism.

-Marxism was significant because it was non-utopian, where both Liberalism and Utopian Socialism were founded on an ideal. How many times have you heard 'this is not who we are' and so on from Liberals and Social-Democrats? Marxism counters that with materialist analysis.
Marxism throws away the ideal as basis and tries to take the root, the power ratios in political economy and create a society that marches towards upholding humane living instead of ethically hoping on achieving that.

To conclude:
We would love for it to not be needed. We would love to be able to stay home, vote once a year and have everything work out just fine without system change.
It is simply that we rationally and scientifically concluded that that is not possible, were are not crazy radicals just to stand out. Some are I suppose but the serious works written in the past one hundred years are completely air tight in argumentation.

Reading suggestion is Reform or Revolution, by Rosa Luxemburg. Yes it is old but the arguments in this thread are old, too. That book will change anyone from a reformist to a revolutionary because it will deconstruct everything that you have build up as truth up until today when it comes to political economy.
 

_Karooo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,029
America is capitalist as well as socialist. $2.4 trillion is spent on public welfare.

Problem with America is corporate greed and sold out politicians.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
I would like to personally thank America for giving the world the idea that the government spending money is an indicator of socialism.

America is capitalist as well as socialist. $2.4 trillion is spent on public welfare.

Problem with America is corporate greed and sold out politicians.

This is why this conversation is impossible, there are literally people in this thread clearing the issue up but everyone is convinced they have all the understanding of the situation they need.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
923
Using "but communism" as a justification for the great injustices capitalism in its current state is inflicting on people is a fucking lazy argument.
Pointing problems is easy, finding workable solutions is the hard part. What system do you propose that is better than a Capitalistic Social Democracy?

Socialist systems work fine on an small scale with groups that voluntarily form part of the system and try to make it work but has huge problems with scale.
 

Kiunch

Member
Oct 26, 2017
239

This thread is not about improving capitalism, it is about people wanting to destroy capitalism and replace with something else. It will be more relevant if the comic is about a guy with a fire torch saying "capitalism didn't work for me, let's burn everything and try something else".
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
923
An example where it works is the NHS
That's a service that has been running for over 50 years now and it provides healthcare services to a population of 66 million. It's the kind of thing that works better at scale.

But the solution is regulation to protect things that capitalism cannot solve. Capitalism fails when there is an external cost that cannot be taken into consideration when you have an exchange of products and services that has an external effect e.g a cost to the environment. And it also fails where profit is out Infront of what is best for the populace e.g healthcare.

These kind of things should either be nationalised in the case of healthcare as the government negotiating health services on behalf of a large block of people has loads more power than an individual does. Or they should be heavily regulated to add a direct cost into the things that have an indirect cost such as the environment to incentivise green behaviours over damaging ones.

Industries that have natural monopolies should also be heavily regulated or nationalised to ensure that private businesses cannot take advantage of the populace.

There are many potential total solutions it's just that there is so much money in lobbying governments now days that very few parties even look into it
Everything you are arguing for fits a Capitalistic Social Democracy. I just find obsesing with the term Capitalism distracting, I am more used to the term "Free Market" when talking about public Healthcare and regulations.