After so many end of the world scenarios with superhero movies, a conflict that's a little more grounded was welcome.
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Captain America: Civil War is a pretty toothless and inconsequential movie
- Thread starter Deleted member 21339
- Start date
And even then it showed them hanging out.
I'm sure Tony did consider all of them more than colleagues. But with Cap it was an even more meaningful relationship since Cap knew his father and Tony had to get over his own jealous of Cap.
You assume a lot from that one second of interaction from a 3 hour movie.
OP
OP
Yea, I guess the airport scene does have some neat action but to what end? It's an extended scene of two sides showing off their powers and the big shock moment "As I always side catastrophe" ends with Rhodey being paralyzed and functionally healed by the next movie. Some catastrophe.
I like how some people feel that people should intentionally weaken themselves because of something that happened earlier "Whoa, whoa, Thor can't make stormbreaker! He's not the god of hammers! That ruins the ending of Ragnarok!" "Whoa, whoa, what's Rhodey doing, ignoring the accords?! I mean, there was an alien invasion in new york, dr strange, iron-man and spiderman are off world, cap's bringing a damaged Vision to avengers headquarters, and who knows what else is going to go down, but General Ross is telling me to arrest them. Guess I'd better do that, and not try to find out what's going on. I signed the accords!"
The catastrophe is the Avengers breaking up, not Rhodey not being paralyzed. "Oh noes! Rhodey wasn't perpamantly crippled, because he's friends with one of the richest people on earth who already has powered exoskeleton that could be pretty easily adapated to being used to help someone walk."
The catastrophe is the Avengers breaking up, not Rhodey not being paralyzed. "Oh noes! Rhodey wasn't perpamantly crippled, because he's friends with one of the richest people on earth who already has powered exoskeleton that could be pretty easily adapated to being used to help someone walk."
It's mediocre imo. And the involvement of Spider-Man was just unnecessary and straight-up negligent on Stark's part. Also Scott turning into a criminal immediately after his solo movie had him move on from that life was just dumb. It was basically a movie made purely for cameos and introducing future characters. :/
Again, Ant-Man and the Wasp literally is a movie all about Scott's house arrest for taking a part in that battle.
The people who made Civil War went on to make Infinity War and Endgame...
Ant-Man & The Wasp also used the set-up to explain why its lead was on the outs with his allies when that film began.
Spider-Man: Homecoming also used it to set up Peter's situation in that movie.
Ant-Man & The Wasp also used the set-up to explain why its lead was on the outs with his allies when that film began.
Spider-Man: Homecoming also used it to set up Peter's situation in that movie.
Anything where the murderer doesn't show his face to security footage is a good first step. I don't even know why they did that. If we went with the footage by itself, sure fine, whatever. Just let us believe it was enough for Stark to know it was Bucky. Don't have the guy blatantly show his face to the camera. I mean...he shoots the camera AFTER he kills them even. For the Winter Solider, it is dumb of him. He should've simply not realized it was there, else he would have shot it immediately.
Agreed.
This ghost story showing his face bugs me the most.
Well, when you have discourse surrounding WS/CW with talking points as "Cap didn't know that Bucky killed Stark's parents because it wasn't clearly stated by Zola in Winter Soldier," there is a benefit to having clearly communicated evidence shown (not told) to the audience. The tradeoff, unfortunately, is the loss of some plausibility.
Regardless, Zemo had to find a secret underground Hydra bunker in the middle of Buttfuck Nowhere, Alaska just to find the only video evidence that Bucky killed the Starks. This fits the narrative of "ghost story." The only footage of one of the WS's assassinations on camera was buried in the snow.
I mean he was explicitly on his way to take that serum over to a government facility. It's not a random road. You can see that there's a fenced-in area on the left side of the shot, where the camera is mounted.
I don't think I've ever seen a thread of this kind where the OP goes, "wow, ya know? You make a great point, I didn't see it from that perspective before!" Or vice versa, really.
The OP will just answers with more questions.
I agree with the OP when it comes to CW as an individual movie. But I am actually invested in the MCU and see their fallout as a consequence.
Across the MCU it certain shook things up a bit. It even had huge consequences and was part of Black Panther's plot as well.
Considering the whole team are fugitives according to the UN, providing them with no backup, that certainly didn't help.
If Vision and Wanda were with the Avengers, they would've been able to easily fend of the attacks in the beginning of IW.
Strange never would've gotten abducted, so he and Tony never would have ended up getting beaten on titan and losing the time stone.
Strange never would've gotten abducted, so he and Tony never would have ended up getting beaten on titan and losing the time stone.
Threads like these make me feel like some people just got it out for the MCU or love to flame-bait. Something as clear as day as the separation of the Avengers leading to their loss in Infinity War being a point of contention is just wild. Or hand-waiving the entirety of Ant-Man and the Wasp. The consequentiality is clear and the significance could only be higher if Thanos decided to wipe out all living things instead of half of them.
Even within the movie, the trade in perspectives that Tony/Cap do is consequential in itself. As the Russos and others in this thread have said, you don't need to kill someone for something to be consequential.
Zemo still probably one of the GOAT comic book villains on screen.
Even within the movie, the trade in perspectives that Tony/Cap do is consequential in itself. As the Russos and others in this thread have said, you don't need to kill someone for something to be consequential.
Zemo still probably one of the GOAT comic book villains on screen.
It wasn't a random road it was near the Stark home. Tony recognized it immediately.
TIL OP slept through the movie.
They were fighting, but were all still pretty much friends. Nobody wanted to kill anybody. Wanda flat out says Hawkeye was pulling his punches, and Tony confirms it again in SM:Homecoming. If Cap had WANTED to put Peter down, he would have. Nobody was trying to hurt anybody there and nobody wanted to "Kill Rhodey," jesus christ.
As for Rhodey, he's *paralyzed from the waist down* and needs machinery to walk for the rest of his life. He's not dead, but his life is going to be pretty shitty from here on out because Vision got careless.
Ok...try to keep up. Bucky lost his arm, it doesn't show up again until Infinity War which is over 2 years later. He spent that time in Wakanda undoing all that brainwashing...with one arm.
Cap has given up the Shield and the Captain America title. He's an international fugitive, along with the rest of his team. Ant Man is put under house arrest for 2 years, loses his suit, and the Pyms are PISSED and no longer working with him. Hawkeye takes a plea deal. The rest of the team is on the run for 2 years.
Cap has given Tony his number, but the "Avengers" are done as a unit. The Avengers no longer being a "thing" is responsible for Thanos' crew being able to waltz into new york, beat strange, and walk off with the time stone and ALMOST take the mind stone...because Wanda and Vision were off the Grid. Against a unified Avengers squad that wouldn't have happened.
There are plenty of consequences, see the above. Half the team are wanted fugitives, the other isn't. The fractured squad meant that the Black Order had an easy time of things whereas they SHOULD have run headlong into defeat and not much else.
They were fighting, but were all still pretty much friends. Nobody wanted to kill anybody. Wanda flat out says Hawkeye was pulling his punches, and Tony confirms it again in SM:Homecoming. If Cap had WANTED to put Peter down, he would have. Nobody was trying to hurt anybody there and nobody wanted to "Kill Rhodey," jesus christ.
As for Rhodey, he's *paralyzed from the waist down* and needs machinery to walk for the rest of his life. He's not dead, but his life is going to be pretty shitty from here on out because Vision got careless.
Ok...try to keep up. Bucky lost his arm, it doesn't show up again until Infinity War which is over 2 years later. He spent that time in Wakanda undoing all that brainwashing...with one arm.
Cap has given up the Shield and the Captain America title. He's an international fugitive, along with the rest of his team. Ant Man is put under house arrest for 2 years, loses his suit, and the Pyms are PISSED and no longer working with him. Hawkeye takes a plea deal. The rest of the team is on the run for 2 years.
Cap has given Tony his number, but the "Avengers" are done as a unit. The Avengers no longer being a "thing" is responsible for Thanos' crew being able to waltz into new york, beat strange, and walk off with the time stone and ALMOST take the mind stone...because Wanda and Vision were off the Grid. Against a unified Avengers squad that wouldn't have happened.
There are plenty of consequences, see the above. Half the team are wanted fugitives, the other isn't. The fractured squad meant that the Black Order had an easy time of things whereas they SHOULD have run headlong into defeat and not much else.
Feige has said if all the avengers were together, Thanos would have lost. That's why they made CW.
if steve rogers and his dumb ass crew of criminals signed the accords, the whole team together with 2 stones couldve easily stopped thanos until Thor came back with the axes and chopped him up
#TeamIronman by themselves basically beat thanos and had the glove off before star lord fucked it, so imagine that same fight in wakanda with a whole army
Civil War just showed how captain america killed half the universe and lied about hiding the murderer of Tony's parents
As an individual film leading up to that point in the MCU? Most definitely, but they did an okay job at following up on it with Infinity War and Antman & the Wasp.
That Bunker was the base of operations for the Russian Super Soldier Program. It had the bodies of the half dozen super soldiers who were too dangerous to use in stasis, along with the intelligence that went along with the reports for Winter Soldier, the only successful operative.
This..isn't really much of a stretch. Where else would you expect that data and footage to be?
Good point. Captain America is an asshole, he showed his ass at the end of that movie too. Looked ashamed when iron man asked him if he knew his cornball friend killed his parents
Hopefully when he dies at the end of next avengers his last words are to Tony "I'm sorry, you were always right"
I don't understand your point. What I was saying is that the footage of WS killing the Starks was hard to find, which contributes to the idea that the Winter Soldier was a "ghost story." Are you corroborating my point?
Yeah, about that. CW Telegraphed in every possible way that signing the accords was the worst possible idea the Avengers could have made.
The guy running the program was Thunderbolt Ross, who created the Abomination and destroyed Harlem. Signing the Accords meant that the Avengers would have been a state sanctioned weapon answering only to him- it would have been a disaster.
Also a good point. Way for OP to gloss over "T'chaka dies, setting up Black Panther" as a consequence of that film.
T'Chaka doesn't die, there's no grounds for Killmonger to challenge T'challa for the throne, which means the events of Black Panther pretty much don't happen at all.
and tony said he didnt agree with them either and isnt gonna bide by it, just like in ironman 2 when the government tried to take his armor.
But at that point in time, it was only option to keep wanda and his vigilante squad out of jail and getting deported. Captain Hothead even AGREED AND ALMOST SIGNED, before going "oh! you kept wanda trapped!!!!!! rawrrr" like no dumbass, she doesnt have a visa to roam aroumd blowing up shit. Tony was holding everything together trying to make things work
You not liking it is perfectly valid. I get that. But pretending that it's "toothless" with no impact on the MCU is simply incorrect. I strongly recommend that you immediately revisit BP, Ant-Man & Wasp (maybe not that one) and Infinity War. It even impacted Spider-Man Homecoming, albeit in less significant ways than Infinity War.
*edit - nevermind, looks like all the responses gave pretty thorough explanations of the significance of CW, much better than I could.
My only issue was that the build up to the Accords could have been more well handled. Ross grouping Avengers and especially Winter Soldier into proof that Heroes needed to checked due to the damage that they cause was bullshit and especially unbelievable for people that watched and paid attention to those movies.
When Ross showed collateral damage from WS, someone should have stood up and said, "no that was on you. YOU did that."
*edit - nevermind, looks like all the responses gave pretty thorough explanations of the significance of CW, much better than I could.
My only issue was that the build up to the Accords could have been more well handled. Ross grouping Avengers and especially Winter Soldier into proof that Heroes needed to checked due to the damage that they cause was bullshit and especially unbelievable for people that watched and paid attention to those movies.
When Ross showed collateral damage from WS, someone should have stood up and said, "no that was on you. YOU did that."
I bet the new "What If?" show on Disney+ will tackle this, but having Doctor Strange and Vision together gives the Avengers way more leverage. If Shuri separates the mind stone from Vision then Wanda destroys it, as was originally planned. Thanos, not having the time stone (because Strange has it) is thus unable to complete the gauntlet.
Damn it Wong...
Except it wasn't- Cap's squad was able to operate and keep themselves out of prison for 2 full years without the UN or the US Government being able to do a thing about it. The only reason they were "caught" is because that squad was defeated during the airport battle.
There are three likely outcomes-
1.) Entire Squad signs the accords. Avengers now become complicit in every shady bit of business Thunderbolt Ross wants them to do.
2.) Entire Squad refuses and tells the UN to piss off. Higher profile figures like Tony simply go inactive as Iron Man (this doesn't affect War Machine who is still part of the US government) everyone else goes underground but the "Avengers" still operate as a unit off the radar- and not answerable to obvious supervillains like T. Ross.
3.) Civil War. Team can't agree, gets into a fight, half end up fugitives. "Avengers" no longer exists as a thing and is unable to stop Thanos.
Steve's route is obviously the correct one. Tony wanted choice #1 but when he couldn't get that, forced everyone into choice #3. The only benefit of everything ending up as "Civil War" is that T'Challa was delayed long enough to be able to witness what Zemo's constant obsession with vengeance did to him and give up on his mission of murdering Bucky. Without that happening he probably gets to Bucky pretty quickly and kills him.
But he didn't succeed, so this comparison is moot. Superman dies and is brought back in the very next film, then shows up at the end and renders the rest of the League obsolete.
Of course they will put aside their differences and work together in order to stop a villain who has killed half of all life in the universe. Do you expect them to refuse to work together and Tony to still be pissed off about it? I mean, in an ideal world maybe there would have been more intervening stories involving Cap and Tony before Infinity War, but they've got to finish the characters' arc and there's not really time to let the consequences of Civil War marinate, so it is what it is.
The consequences of Civil War mean that the team is fractured in Infinity War and because they're working in splinter groups instead of as a united front their chances of stopping Thanos are lessened. And also, by the same token you could argue that the beginning of Infinity War renders Thor Ragnarok obsolete too: Thor has just escaped his sister and rescued the Asgardians then Thanos shows up, kills half of them and destroys what's left of his friends and family.
Not only that, the reason that Vision and Wanda were "off the radar" and Cap had to be called in the first place was because of the split. Corvus was only able to surprise attack and heavily damage Vision to begin with (which pretty much took him off the board as being viable for all of IW) because they were separated from everyone else.
Against a united Avengers Squad (Plus Strange and Wong) the black order are all either killed or stopped on Earth.
I never understand people thinking Civil War retconned Bucky's behavior.
They said he was a ghost story, not that he was a master ninja. In Winter Soldier alone, the first time we see him as he attacks Fury, he does so in broad daylight (mask on, but still). He sneaks into Pierce's office to talk to him and Pierce has to kill his own maid to cover up the fact he'd been there. He's introduced to us in Civil War being spotted by some regular dude while out on the street. And Zemo had to move heaven and hell just to get his hands on the one copy of the tape, which was locked up in the facility that used to house the Winter Soldier program.
Hydra was the reason Bucky was so hard for intelligence agencies to track down. Not Bucky himself lmao
Civil War's twist doesn't fundamentally change anything we know about Bucky in the MCU. I totally buy that he screwed up, had his face shown on camera, and that Hydra cleaned up the mess that followed to keep him off the grid.