Cat Person (short story going viral from the New Yorker)

Stouffers

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,924
It's weird the dishonest faces people put up when confronted with something like this.

"Fat shaming" - as though "good" people are absent of any type of sexual preference towards physical fitness. This is her interior monologue, she never says a word to shame him.

Framing his response as a question of masculinity - as though a woman would somehow not be filled with shame, anger and resentment if a man laughed at her in the middle of sex, then told her never to contact him again. Robert's angry texts at the end were one of his only honest moments in the whole story.

We've known what people are about on an unconscious level since Freud. People have animalistic drives. People feel lust. People have disgust responses. People feel anger - especially at rejection; it's a psychological defensive measure against fear of excommunication from community.

I understand the way that the conversation around what's happening here is situated in a broader discourse over power, safety, and wellbeing. But I'm also pretty frustrated with the way that conversation is frequently carried out by measuring someone against an ideal person free of those drives - a person who either doesn't exist, or is a bodhisattva and therefore off the dating market. And yet so many are quick to say "oh, I would never think something like that." Meanwhile, they've almost certainly thought them in the past hour.

In other words, so many in these conversations are blatantly lying about themselves and it's getting kind of old. Be good to each other, fine. Don't use these drives as some simple-minded biological determinist defence of rape or abuse, certainly. But we'll never actually address these issues if people aren't willing and able to be honest about them - and what they say about what the human animal actually is - to begin with.
Excellent response. It’ll go over a lot of people, but at least you put it out there.
 

Pickle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
730
The story goes to confirm the naiveness of a young 20 year old. Someone more grown up would realize that a man in his 30s having social interaction issues and delivering awkward exchanges, as well as picking a holocaust movie on the first outing, inserting their tongue down her throat... etc, is in no way a normal thing to excuse under cuteness, awkwardness or whatever. Im also surprised she gave him pity sex basically as to not be unpolite. Given that they had drinks, our awkward Robert here could have been in big trouble had she felt forced to keep the intimacy going out of fear specially in these times.
 

Stouffers

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,924
The story goes to confirm the naiveness of a young 20 year old. Someone more grown up would realize that a man in his 30s having social interaction issues and delivering awkward exchanges, as well as picking a holocaust movie on the first outing, inserting their tongue down her throat... etc, is in no way a normal thing to excuse under cuteness, awkwardness or whatever. Im also surprised she gave him pity sex basically as to not be unpolite. Given that they had drinks, our awkward Robert here could have been in big trouble had she felt forced to keep the intimacy going out of fear or whatever.
But what if he was oblivious to that fear?
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,882
What made me dislike the Margot character is that she knew he was fat and is fine with it, but then is grossed out by his fatness later. Or maybe she wouldn't have been as grossed out by his fatness if she was having a better time, and that was the point?

Idk
Why are we assuming he was over weight? There are a lot of men out there with smaller bellies that are obstructed when dressed. Couple this with him bending over and it can really make it seem worse.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,133
America
Women get turned on in complex ways? Sounds about right.

Many frustrating misunderstandings can and do happen early in the dating process, dooming it and hurting people. How many misunderstandings and body language misreads were there in the story? I lost count.

I don't blame her for the silent treatment after that shitty date but she was cowardly for not ripping the bandaid off when she the guy kept messaging for days. Otherwise, she behaved in an exemplary way throughout. Don't get me wrong, she had the right to be bluntly hurtful since the guy was borderline harassing her at that point. She didn't. She lied instead. She should have said something like "I was turned off by this, this and that and now I don't feel attracted to you anymore and do not wish to date you. Please don't contact me again.".

He behaved in an entitled and disrespectful way towards her after he received "her" answer. . He should have shut his mouth up and try to move on. Insulting her was wrong. I kinda wish she had told him the truth about his suckiness as a kisser and his lack of bed prowess so he could try to learn how to sex. Yeah, it'll hurt, but sometimes, medication has to hurt to be effective. No pain, no gain.

The guy behaved worse. Yes he was suffering, yes he was drunk, but he's delusional if he thinks one date means they're in a relationship and he needs to learn he is entitled to nothing, least of all another person's love. Hopefully he will learn.
 
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Mathieran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,137
I thought it was a good little story but I was disappointed in the lack of cats. Now that I've thought about the title of the story makes sense.
 

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
21,449
Because the story almost immediately frames him as "a little on the heavy side", which is nice for "fat".
That's not how fiction works. It's not polite, it's exact. If he were fat then it would describe him as such. This isn't a conversation with a friend, the author picked those words to paint a specific picture.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,590
That's not how fiction works. It's not polite, it's exact. If he were fat then it would describe him as such. This isn't a conversation with a friend, the author picked those words to paint a specific picture.
Then why did I picture a fat guy as soon as I read "but he was a little on the heavy side"?

It's because it's almost always used to describe fat people in a more "polite" way. Considering the narrator is framing the entire thing from Margot's perspective, I'd assume that's what Margot was thinking when she saw him. That he's kinda fat.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,775
I do wonder what the reaction would have been if it was a man thinking about how grossed out he was over a woman's fat belly. I absolutey think people would be screaming about fat shaming then.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,882
I do wonder what the reaction would have been if it was a man thinking about how grossed out he was over a woman's fat belly. I absolutey think people would be screaming about fat shaming then.
Likely because women have been under the microscope of looks for years. Think about how Lady Gaga was getting shit for her stomach at the super bowl. Meanwhile a few men are on a beach with a slight gut it’s turned into a trend (dad bod).
 

whytemyke

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,510
A big thing I took away is just how bad texting is for you as a person. As I've gotten a little older I've almost entirely stopped Texting with a capital T. I text all the time, but I don't have those interactions anymore. The whole text/courtship routine is bad. Its fun, and intoxicating, and addictive. But its BAD. And most importantly, its not real. She mentioned they built a "scaffolding of jokes" which is the perfect word. Its hollow, incomplete and meant to be temporary. I've had so many long drawn out hyper-witty text affairs. Its almost a type of relationship that needs another name. Having the very real realization that "No, actually I don't know anything about this person I've been talking to forever." Is a really eye opening experience.
This is an interesting comment on it. I find that the texting before going on a date is almost a form of courtship in and of itself. I've outright lost interest in people because of their inability to text or to engage in my repartee. The problem, I think, is that people build up an entire identity of someone via their text conversations and that informs them more of that individual than anything in person ever does. The story even does a great job of portraying this. I know that I've learned that relying too much on text to get to know someone almost ALWAYS leaves me underwhelmed when we finally do go on a date.

Well, that was hilariously bad.

I kept imagining Robert as "Hopper" from Stranger Things and the Margot as the girl from that James Franco movie "Why him?".

Anyway.

I find it interesting that story first frames Margot's initial crush as girls being attracted to older men for the allure of being made to feel naive and condescended to with kisses on the forehead, and then flips that, and portrays Margot reveling in a pretty realistic young female power fantasy of breaking through that assumption of elder male wisdom and intellectual superiority and seeing a tangle of insecurities before her as the strings by which to control and manipulate Robert's now demystified emotions. Which of course she finds arousing and maliciously leads him on to get herself off.

"Whore"

Again, hilariously terrible.

I mean, I had a two year relationship unfold similarly, with a girl just a year younger than me. Found me irresistible for the first few months and the relationship was one sided. But when she caught on to me not being an endless stream of mystery and knowledge she began to play games.

To me it was always a sign of immaturity and a misconception of how relationships work.

In this short story's simplified case, it was a mix of that passive aggressive, failure to communicate style of approach to dating followed by sexual power fantasies and guilt and bit of body shaming/stereotyping in the middle.

It's kinda sad that this is going viral. Means the state of dating as devolved so much that this is relatable.
This is interesting. I mean, I really think this story serves as a litmus test for how people understand each other. It's a looking glass, essentially. What you see in it reflects your own personal experiences. I honestly have no problem seeing someone calling someone a whore for not returning texts, mainly because I know more than a couple women who've had similar flame-outs to text-dating scenarios.

Also, I think you're misinterpreting how she's seeing his insecurities. She's not doing it to manipulate him-- she's doing it because being the erotic center of his attention was alluring to her. Moreso than the other stuff was a turnoff. I really don't know how you read this story and view it as a one-sided assault with her as the puppet-master. But, well, maybe that's what makes the story pop. Which, again, my "looking glass" analogy may be apropos...
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
I’ve read enough stories with verbose descriptions of female bodies the male character is going to fuck, so I don’t really see the big problem with turning this around here.
 

Stouffers

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,924
Thicc has been a thing for awhile now. Larger curvy women are perfectly acceptable in today’s society.
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
Most dudes need to stop dating younger.

It's a carry-over from women being married off to property holders to unite patriarchs. That's why the romanticization of dating younger is still tolerated and even endorsed by our society for men alone. Dudes, stop it. It's gross. Date your fucking age. I don't care how happy you think you are. You're grown up. You're just part of a sick fucking ancient cycle that dehumanizes women and caters to you and has for thousands of years. Don't give me the bullshit about how I'M the one being sexist because I'm not allowing a woman to make up her own mind. The woman is in the same society you are. You both are part of a system that pairs you together. And it's fucking gross. Stop it.
 

Deleted member 1722

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,058
This is an interesting comment on it. I find that the texting before going on a date is almost a form of courtship in and of itself. I've outright lost interest in people because of their inability to text or to engage in my repartee. The problem, I think, is that people build up an entire identity of someone via their text conversations and that informs them more of that individual than anything in person ever does. The story even does a great job of portraying this. I know that I've learned that relying too much on text to get to know someone almost ALWAYS leaves me underwhelmed when we finally do go on a date.

Exactly. The text/dating thing is always way more your imagination of the other person. Rather than actually interacting with each other, you build a shadow of the other person that is way more about your sense of self than the other party. It’s a weird phenomenon that wouldn’t happen without asynchronous communication.
 
Dec 2, 2017
3,425
Don't give me the bullshit about how I'M the one being sexist because I'm not allowing a woman to make up her own mind.
Uh, or not? There's nothing "fucking gross" about an age disparity between two consenting adults. There is something unpleasant about insulting people's choices in love based on a political argument that falls apart the moment you see how these types of relationships inhere throughout all manner of eras and political systems.
 

NO!R

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,742
Also, I think you're misinterpreting how she's seeing his insecurities. She's not doing it to manipulate him-- she's doing it because being the erotic center of his attention was alluring to her.
Well, that's kind of similar.

I don't know the psychology behind it, but I've seen more than a few girls be turned on by their own image.

Similarly, visibly arousing someone yields the same response. Now whether they merely find it entertaining to have a guy wrapped around their fingers, or it's simply being the object of their arousal as you said, I'm not sure....

It's definitely not "Mwahaha being so devilishly manipulative gets me wet". That's not what I meant. Lol

Anyway, that's one problem. My biggest gripe is the complete and utter social retardation displayed by these characters. There's assumption on assumptions on assumptions on assumptions... "she assumed that he assumed that she didn't want to me seen with him." For fuck's sake, talk to each other! I mean, she guessed that one right, which lead to the whole dismantling him and using him. But take for example the part she gets rejected at the bar and he can't take the blame for her being put in an embarrassing situation. I can't believe this is how grown people act around each other. It's like they never made it past that awkward stage in highschool where everything was misconstrued and misunderstood and you couldn't just take a hit, take the blame, fumble a joke and laugh it off. I just can't believe this is how people are now.
 

smisk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,018
Really enjoyed this, and I found it illuminating to read this from the perspective of a woman. Definitely saw some familiar things on both sides.
I think it says a lot about how we build up people we meet online, without really knowing much about them.
 
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gfxtwin

Use of alt account
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,159
So far this story reads a bit like an IRL version of a Don Hertzfeldt cartoon, hehe.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Exactly. The text/dating thing is always way more your imagination of the other person. Rather than actually interacting with each other, you build a shadow of the other person that is way more about your sense of self than the other party. It’s a weird phenomenon that wouldn’t happen without asynchronous communication.
Believe me, as an old, people manage to project their own desires onto other people just fine without text messages.
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
Yeah, well it is fat shaming him... she was all in until she was disgusted. She apparently liked him, then saw him nude and then was out. She led him on completely and even so after they hooked up for a bit.

So in the end, she was shallow.

A lot of people are.. but I'm not celebrating it.
I don't think it's just the belly, though. He carries himself awkwardly, forgets to untie and take off his shoes before his pants, lays on her with his full weight while on top, etc. I think if he knew what he was doing, he wouldn't give off this impression.
But here we have a guy who doesn't bother to clean his car before taking a date out, and seems generally clueless about women. He isn't even remotely a PUA, so I don't know why anyone would ascribe those traits onto him.
 

smisk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,018
Can't believe how many people are harping on the fat shaming thing. Neither character is supposed to be perfect and you don't have to choose a side. Portrayal does not equal endorsement.
 

Rembrandt

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,267
Most dudes need to stop dating younger.

It's a carry-over from women being married off to property holders to unite patriarchs. That's why the romanticization of dating younger is still tolerated and even endorsed by our society for men alone. Dudes, stop it. It's gross. Date your fucking age. I don't care how happy you think you are. You're grown up. You're just part of a sick fucking ancient cycle that dehumanizes women and caters to you and has for thousands of years. Don't give me the bullshit about how I'M the one being sexist because I'm not allowing a woman to make up her own mind. The woman is in the same society you are. You both are part of a system that pairs you together. And it's fucking gross. Stop it.
where did you copy this from?
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I can identify with Margot in this. As a young man I'd sometimes end up having sex that I felt awkward about, because I liked the other guy. Perhaps I was fortunate that none of these flings hurt the other guy enough to make them want to bite back even a little bit. Ships that pass in the night.

The situation she's in is a bit sad and empty, she doesn't see herself as ever finding the perfect soul mate she imagines. I recognise her conviction that "no such boy existed, and never would." When you're very young you can sometimes feel so trapped in the weight of your few prior decisions, and so blind to what you have to offer, that you can't imagine ever being truly loved.

As far as fat-shaming goes, her impression of Robert's physique is strictly private; we're being given a private view of the contents of her soul, she's not shaming anybody. It's not unusual for a younger person to find their older lover unattractively obese. I've spent enjoyable times with men whom I found quite physically gross. As I was young and gorgeous in those days (but couldn't quite bring myself to feel that way) I recognise Margot's enjoyment of the appreciation, the hunger for beauty, an older lover brings to the liaison. Sometimes that hunger we see in the eyes of a lover is all the validation we get.

Robert's ineptness as a lover, while comical, reveals to the reader his inexperience, which suggests that he's had problems approaching women. His awkward bout of robotic sex with Margot might well be the most wonderful and, in the end, the most soul-crushing sexual experience of his life. We don't get his side of the experience, which might make a different kind of story.
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
Most dudes need to stop dating younger.

It's a carry-over from women being married off to property holders to unite patriarchs. That's why the romanticization of dating younger is still tolerated and even endorsed by our society for men alone. Dudes, stop it. It's gross. Date your fucking age. I don't care how happy you think you are. You're grown up. You're just part of a sick fucking ancient cycle that dehumanizes women and caters to you and has for thousands of years. Don't give me the bullshit about how I'M the one being sexist because I'm not allowing a woman to make up her own mind. The woman is in the same society you are. You both are part of a system that pairs you together. And it's fucking gross. Stop it.
How old are you?
 

KidKompromat

Banned
Nov 28, 2017
332
So basically she gave a guy pity sex and then hated him for it. It's basically the core of the story. He also behaved like shit once he learned she wasn't a virgin and tried to act as if they were in a porno with his cringy one-liners so I didn't really feel bad for him during the act. I felt bad for her. But then she acted like a cold person by not texting him back and then allowing her friend to send him that rude break up message. Anyway he should have just taken the loss and move on but he acted to act like a cunt and start harassing her by text messages because his ego and feelings were hurt. At 34 year old you should definitely know better. Anyway in a perfect world she would have stopped him at the start and just tell him straight that she liked him but that it wasn't working for her and either take it slow and try something different or just tell him she wants to go back home and leave.

Anyway I feel like by trying to write a story to show how women sometimes feel like they have to give sex even when they don't want to she (which shouldn't have to be that way) also managed to show how cruel they can be and I bet the author didn't even realize that.
Actually the author wanted people to be frustrated with the girl and sympathetic for Roger, up until he wrote "whore"
 

CarpeDeezNutz

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,474
Most dudes need to stop dating younger.

It's a carry-over from women being married off to property holders to unite patriarchs. That's why the romanticization of dating younger is still tolerated and even endorsed by our society for men alone. Dudes, stop it. It's gross. Date your fucking age. I don't care how happy you think you are. You're grown up. You're just part of a sick fucking ancient cycle that dehumanizes women and caters to you and has for thousands of years. Don't give me the bullshit about how I'M the one being sexist because I'm not allowing a woman to make up her own mind. The woman is in the same society you are. You both are part of a system that pairs you together. And it's fucking gross. Stop it.
This is a parody post right? Sometimes people meet each other and have varying ages. I dated women that were older/younger than me, my wife is younger than me. We got “paired up” because her tastes were the same as mine.
 

KidKompromat

Banned
Nov 28, 2017
332
Most of the responses to this story remind me the reactions to the movie "Boyhood" so many of your guys biases are coming out when you say stuff like "but who's the bad guy and who's the good guy?" , "how anti climatic" , "Durrr story ends up nowhere" etc etc.
 

KidKompromat

Banned
Nov 28, 2017
332
Can't believe how many people are harping on the fat shaming thing. Neither character is supposed to be perfect and you don't have to choose a side. Portrayal does not equal endorsement.
Good post. Agreed. Why is everyone looking for villains and heros in this story and focusing on all the wrong things. This isn't the new MCU film and it's not supposed to be.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,354
Gordita Beach
Most of the responses to this story remind me the reactions to the movie "Boyhood" so many of your guys biases are coming out when you say stuff like "but who's the bad guy and who's the good guy?" , "how anti climatic" , "Durrr story ends up nowhere" etc etc.
It’s this awful cycle where people praise thing, people who would have no prior interest in thing experience it, dislike it because they expected greatness and likely didn’t get it because it doesn’t fit their interests, then backlash ensues. It’s a never ending cycle that happens in everything we read, watch, listen, and play
 

Wanace

Member
Oct 29, 2017
649
The title gives the theme away pretty blatantly. He's like a cat, at times loving, caring, and wonderful, at times aloof, far away, acting like a cunt. I haven't read the thread but if I'm the first person to say this I'd be surprised.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,702
UK
Why is no one really pointing out that he stalks her at the end of the story? He goes to the college bar she suggested, apparently to find and confront her. That's also ignoring the fact he tried to obscure the fact he's 14 years older than her, which is really really creepy. She's got plenty of reasons not to want to see him again but still wants to let him down gently. She tries to be a good person here, but he's a total asshole at the end.
She hides her real age too. Why does she initiate and go after him but then get into body shaming? They're both kind of in the wrong at certain points (she can't communicate honestly), he just happens to be worse.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
She hides her real age too. Why does she initiate and go after him but then get into body shaming? They're both kind of in the wrong at certain points (she can't communicate honestly), he just happens to be worse.
At what point is she depicted as body shaming Robert? I don't think we see her ever referring to his physique, let alone fat shaming him.

We certainly see her observations of his unattractive body, thanks to the omniscient narrative technique used to tell the story. But surely there's nothing wrong with depicting that quite natural reaction of a woman accustomed to much younger lovers.
 

leeky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
314
Gripping read detailing the common tragedies of miscommunication and self-deception/betrayal where there are no winners.

I dig it.