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Catherine: Full Body - Death By Nightmare Trailer
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
The original is one of my favorite games. I can't believe all the gross transphobic stuff they added.
I'm so torn on whether I should buy it or not.
I'm so torn on whether I should buy it or not.
They can presumably try to do their best to localize and edit the dialogue in ways that cannot, or at least aren't likely to, be interpreted as problematic. Which should help, in context, even if they can't change the underlying footage. I am curious about how the final result will come across.
Hopefully the localization fixes some issues, otherwise the story and gameplay is top notch. Very excited to play more
Holy shit what?! I had no idea the online was borked.
Like others have said, I have no idea how the localization team will address the transphobia.
the transphobia in this game has been a bit misrepresented on here - the way they handle erica still sucks, and there's a lot of very ignorant handling of queer subjects, but the entire rin route
and that's progress compared to atlus's handling of this stuff in the past. they're trying to learn imo
is pretty clearly meant to be a positive queer romance option for the player even if it's clearly written by a bunch of straight people who have never talked to A Gay in their lives
and that's progress compared to atlus's handling of this stuff in the past. they're trying to learn imo
I'm done with giving Atlus the benefit of the doubt. Fuck em.
I think more people were concerned with the Erica stuff. The Rin stuff is handled poorly too though.
User Banned (3 Days): Trolling, account still in junior phase
Mhm. I'm sure many who share your view thinks the same, but it's a-okay. Y'all do y'all while I chill in my lil corner with this game...whenever it comes rolling out.
Beat the original. I liked it, but the arcade cabinet really soured me on the game. I was trophy whoring at the time and that really didn't help.
Not sure if I'll pick this up. I may down the line at a discount. Really depends when it comes out.
Not sure if I'll pick this up. I may down the line at a discount. Really depends when it comes out.
Really enjoyed my time with the first release, Erica is best girl. Looking forward to the english release.
Wow. Okay, you can jump to that conclusion but I don't remember typing any of that. Go you for thinking all that.
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For what it's worth, I imported it and think Rin is a great character who has a lot of great scenes. I can't speak to the Erica stuff, though.
User warned: antagonising other users
"Transphobia doesn't bother me!"
Is it actually necessary to judge an entire person's character because they are choosing to enjoy entertainment with admittedly problematic stuff, but presumably not because of said problematic stuff?
I am asking this question as someone who never had any interest in Catherine, and has even less so now that the details of its poor handling of LGBTQ issues has come to light. I would never presume to say that people who can still enjoy Catherine are "okay with transphobia", any more than people who still enjoy Michael Jackson's songs are okay with pedophilia.
Jesus.
of course it bothers plenty of people who are still interested in the game. christ, queer people especially are plenty used to putting up with problematic shit in media they enjoy.
some people on this forum really need to back the fuck off on jumping down people's throats for liking problematic media
This is the biggest issue with ResetEra, things have no nuance, they're totally binary. Either you're the greatest thing ever, and a shining beacon and example, or you're trash, and everything about you is trash.
It's okay if people, even people who feel strongly about problems like transphobia in media, like Catherine. Maybe they like it in spite of that. It's categorically not okay if they like Catherine because of the transphobia, in which case yes, go ahead and name and shame them.
Mate, I like you a lot, I hope you remember my interactions with you on Era to know that I'm sincere when I say this, but you did the exact same thing when it came to a company you weren't a big fan of like you are of Atlus:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/i-don’t-want-to-punish-innocent-developers.103003/
If buying games that are being published by a company that had an AMA in a forum where others posted that stuff means you don't care about that stuff, how in the world is supporting those who are actually doing or previously did the terrible stuff completely ok?
This is what you wrote:
I get the difference of "no one is using that excuse here", but if you're saying that supporting those devs means you don't care, and that you lack the moral fortitude to have some actual priorities, the same should apply here.
I'm applying that principle to myself. I'm saying I don't want to buy Catherine because of this. Reading the transphobia controversy completely killed my interest in it.
That said, you're right, I agree. I am more frustrated with the lack of gradients in discussion on Era. I don't excuse Atlus their behavior here, for the record, and nor do I think they are "innocent".
Yeah, I definitely think that either this kind of "oh... so you're a transphobe/homophobe!!!" shaming should be bannable, or discussion on the game should be banned. There's no reason to allow discussing something if talking about it means you're a bigot.
Why have a Catherine OT and a P5Royal OT if the only reason they'll exist is to serve as a list of suspect members?
Yes, I agree.
And I am not asking for the issues with the games to not be brought up, even in OTs, to be clear. If for instance tomorrow, someone were to make a "hype check" thread for P5R, and someone else were to go in and talk about how the homophobia in P5 has killed their hype in future iterations of the game, I support that discussion, and I support keeping these issues in public eye until Atlus actually publicly apologizes, and walks back on this kind of thing in the future.
My issue is more "oh, so you like the game, clearly you are a terrible human being".
Again, saying this as someone who has zero interest in Catherine Full Body.
Absolutely, the OT would be the perfect place to discuss how the transphobic content is handled, how it compares to the original version, and how to conciliate that discrepancy, as in "is it ok to be happy with the game because the western version doesn't have it, when the original creators still included that content?".
You just need to see how many people love Kanji and Erica and then compare to how the game treats them to see that a lot of people are clearly enjoying both the game and characters despite some of the creator's views, and not because of them. If that wasn't the case, they would both be treated by the fanbase as merely "comic relief" at most, but they're not, especially Kanji, he's my favorite character in P4, and many other people's favorite as well.
Yes, definitely. It's a valid discussion about the game's issues, and those are the kinds of discussions any thread about a title should have. That said, has Atlus indicated that the western version is actually curbing the problematic elements? I know that one of the VAs said they are, but is there an official statement? That would be a good first step (though obviously not ideal, given that those elements should never have existed in the first place).
I agree about Kanji, he's fantastic. And yeah, the extent to which P-Studio's games resonate with the LGBTQ demographic makes me feel that in spite of the creators' views and opinions, people enjoy the titles, and a lot (though hopefully not all) of what they have to say.
I think the "official statement" on that will pretty much be when the game actually releases in the west. I don't think Atlus USA is going to go spoiling the game since the problematic elements are also major spoilers. I am curious how they attempt to step around it, because I am really unsure how they dodge some of that stuff without literally redrawing certain animated scenes.
That reminds me something I've always been curious about though: In Persona 4, is there a reason there was an English dubbed line on the disc for a certain character's cut romance lines? It wasn't used in both the English and Japanese versions of the game.
Probably an early localization and the cut happened much later in development. Sekiro has whole questlines that were cut that are fully dubbed as well.
Ah gotcha. That makes sense. And yes, the extent of the localization in that case is going to be interesting to see. Is it possible for them to just cut the problematic parts without anything being lost in the story? I assume that no amount of recontextualization makes them acceptable.
Interesting, that's very different from Atlus's MO as of late, where Atlus usually doesn't get much while the Japanese version is in active development.
Imagine seeing the world black and white like babies do.
And this comes from somebody that is boycotting the game.
If I had to bet,
the deadnaming should be fairly easy to fix, and the anime cutscene showing Erica before transitioning could be somewhat made better if they made it abundantly clear through dialogue, even if the outfits indicate otherwise, that this takes place much earlier than the main game. After all, Catherine going back in time was so she could meet Vincent earlier, so that things would play out differently.
It would look weird and somewhat forced, but at least it would indicate that the transition didn't happen yet, not that it didn't in this timeline.
It still sounds bad because it is, but I don't think there's anything else that can be done. I doubt Atlus JP would let them straight up remove an ending, or would be willing to remake an anime cutscene.
It would look weird and somewhat forced, but at least it would indicate that the transition didn't happen yet, not that it didn't in this timeline.
It still sounds bad because it is, but I don't think there's anything else that can be done. I doubt Atlus JP would let them straight up remove an ending, or would be willing to remake an anime cutscene.
I bet you 20 fucking dollars RE:Fantasy is going to have some lame ass caricatures of lgbtq people.
Hashino is the problem.
To me that doesn't sound like it would be enough. I lack the context for the full story, but I feel like they need to be more thorough than that.
It's very hard to, it would essentially involve redrawing a character during one of the anime cutscenes at the end of a game, and including all the animations for them.
In the ending where Catherine wants to have met Vincent under different circumstances (high school), show Erica as having transitioned. The implication is that the other circumstances were generally a "better" life for everyone else, and that Erica didn't transition in that timeline because that would be implied to be "better" for her. Keep the lines about her saying to Tobey that the girl he would want "might be closer than he would think", and I think it would be a nod to what would happen in the future where Tobey and Erica end up together. Obviously this would require redrawing and reanimating Erica in this scene, because it shows her pre-transition. They could just chose a woman for the English voice actor and that part isn't an issue.
There's an entirely different scene that would could possibly have dialogue reworked to actually disapprovingly frame the actions of certain characters, or the scene would have to be redone entirely.
Vincent freaks out when he sees that Rin has a penis, in a "trans panic" moment. Again this one either takes somehow framing Vincent's actions here as shitty or just redoing the scene entirely.
That's my two cents on the scenes above. Disclaimer, I am a straight cis male, so if my ideas are bad, please call me out on it.
I just pre-ordered Full Body. Transphobia does bother me and I have a lot of love and respect for trans folks out there.
Personally I don't consider buying Catherine Fully Body as at all an endorsement of those views. Just like I don't think buying Persona 5 or Persona 4 is an endorsement of the shitty views expressed within. If that was all the game was about I wouldn't buy it.
I'm also interested in seeing the game in a language I fully understand. I feel like too many people jumped the gun to condemn Atlus for Fully Body based on some rather muddy interpretations of what actually goes on in those scenes. Japanese is a language that relies a lot on context and so it's easier to misread text if you have an elementary understanding.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't stated that Erica didn't transition, right? Some people presented it as if saying Erica's life would be better if she didn't transition.
That's why I want to experience the game myself in English to fully judge it.
At the end of the day regardless of what happens, I will criticize Full Body for it's transphobia and I recommend everyone else does so too once it's out in English.
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I never completed that sub-story through the optional dialogue but there's this maid character who I think starts dating one of the main support characters and it turns out she's trans but then there's a nod in a final cutscene that shows how she "overcomes it" as if to say that her transgenderism was a curse or something.
I'm iffy on this game and need to see how a certain scene is portrayed and translated.
I definitely want to see the Joker stuff though.
I definitely want to see the Joker stuff though.
Probably don't want to talk about that without spoiler tags.
According to people that understand Japanese, and played the Japanese version, including a trans woman here on Era, Catherine wanted to have met Vincent under better circumstances. This is back in high school (the stuff you see from high school in the trailers comes from this ending), Vincent meets Catherine. All the other characters' lives are objective improvements over what their lives were in the original timeline. Erica did not transition in this ending, implying that that's a "better" life for her. I think something like that is something they could have prevented from happening by at least speaking to a few trans people. I'm not sure if there was an attempt to right the wrongs of how they handled Erica in the original game (and even then I'm pretty sure that stuff is still in this version) or what.
if someone's bothered enough by the queerphobic elements of atlus's games to not want to buy their games anymore, i totally get that. everyone has their own comfort zone for this stuff. but in spite of their problems, these games have also done a lot of good for people. i can't overstate how important persona 4 was for me when i was going through a severe depressive episode, how comforting it was to have a game tell me that everyone has shitty thoughts sometimes but they don't define you and you aren't alone. p5, for all its male-gazeyness and suffocating heterosexuality, also has a lot of uplifting and cathartic stories about fighting back against abuse, bigotry, and corruption. in spite of the often shitty and careless ways they are handled in their games, plenty of queer people love characters like kanji or naoto or erica and see themselves in them, and all three are treated as full-fledged and complex characters in their games, not just caricatures, even if their games do a piss-poor job handling their sexuality and gender. like, that's a big part of why you hear so many queer people complain about this stuff! because they love and care about these games and want them to be better!
too often people on era reduce these games to their worst parts, and frankly it's often by people more interested in looking righteous on a message board than actually meaningfully engaging with the content of these games. i've even seen some people call for banning discussion of atlus games altogether like they're fucking huniepop or galgun caliber games or something, which is absurd. yes, these games have problems, sometimes major problems, and atlus should be called out for them. but some people around here really want something to be mad and judge others about, and it's getting fucking exhausting and has been progressively making discussion of these games on era tiresome.
too often people on era reduce these games to their worst parts, and frankly it's often by people more interested in looking righteous on a message board than actually meaningfully engaging with the content of these games. i've even seen some people call for banning discussion of atlus games altogether like they're fucking huniepop or galgun caliber games or something, which is absurd. yes, these games have problems, sometimes major problems, and atlus should be called out for them. but some people around here really want something to be mad and judge others about, and it's getting fucking exhausting and has been progressively making discussion of these games on era tiresome.
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Let me elaborate on the second, as someone who's cleared and beaten Rin's route on the import.
Vincent sees the 'truth' about Rin and freaks out. Rin reaches out to him, he panics, slaps his hand away, and Rin runs out crying.
The next day, Erica and co. rightfully grill Vincent about how big a dick he's being, and he calls Rin to apologize, but she's not answering.
This all assuming you're on Rin's route, on which he grows as a character and owns up to his actions, atones for them, and they become a couple.
The next day, Erica and co. rightfully grill Vincent about how big a dick he's being, and he calls Rin to apologize, but she's not answering.
This all assuming you're on Rin's route, on which he grows as a character and owns up to his actions, atones for them, and they become a couple.
So, in my opinion, it's shown as a bad character doing a bad thing that he later can own up to and grow from.
I agree, but I can't imagine what else they could do with their limited resources.
I imagine their reasoning for her not transitioning is because she didn't have that traumatic experience that made her disappear for a while and then come back transitioned. Which is obviously still HORRIBLE, because it implies that transitioning only happened because of that experience, and not because of who she is, but that's what I think they were going for. The dialogue at the end with "she might be closer than you think" is likely an indication that she still sees herself as a woman.
Again, it's still horrible, I'm not saying it makes things any better at all, just trying to understand their logic behind making that scene. It just has no reason to exist, I don't get it. If they're still hinting she'll transition later, why the hell just not have her transitioned at the end? What the hell were they thinking?
Again, it's still horrible, I'm not saying it makes things any better at all, just trying to understand their logic behind making that scene. It just has no reason to exist, I don't get it. If they're still hinting she'll transition later, why the hell just not have her transitioned at the end? What the hell were they thinking?
