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Oct 28, 2017
4,970
Dukes of Hazzard was a product of its time. It isn't outwardly racist really, the problems with the show has to do with regards to them depicting the South and Southern heritage.

Or rather trying to avoid the true nature of it for the purposes of a comedy show about white men trying to be free against corrupt authority figures that so happens to be a policeman. It's a conservative show but it isn't mean spirited. I believe there's really more reference to moonshine operations than anything actually pertaining to the civil war.

If anything this is really the best example of CDPR's juvenile nature. "The General Lee is a cool looking car! Let's put it in our game!"
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,898
Yeah that's what a reference is, no?
Sure, but I (and probably others) first thought that that tweet was from the official CP2077/CDPR twitter account which changes things slightly in my eyes.

It's highly unlikely that whoever put that homage into the game is trying to say they support the confederacy or white supremacy.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
Sure, but I (and probably others) first thought that that tweet was from the official CP2077/CDPR twitter account which changes things slightly in my eyes.

It's highly unlikely that whoever put that homage into the game is trying to say they support the confederacy or white supremacy.
Yea, it most likely is just a case of "blind ignorance", but how many times can that keep being used as an excuse?
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Yea, it most likely is just a case of "blind ignorance", but how many times can that keep being used as an excuse?

Much like other things with this game I'm having really bad flashforwards of people finding problematic stuff littered throughout the game world and people continually apologizing for it/hand waving it. Thank God it's all going to go on solely in its own OT
 

Meatfist

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,292
Thank you for the very informative OP, Kyuuji!

This is such a fucking bummer all around, because I think CDPR absolutely has the writing chops to explore the complicated themes of race, gender, sexuality, body dysmorphia and transhumanism in a dystopian future - the issue is that it seems that they really just don't want to.

There's nothing interesting or thought provoking about "Mexican gang that says puto a bunch, but also they have cybernetics", or "attractive lady, but gasp she has a huge boner". It's one-dimensional, it's juvenile, and even though I would love to be proven wrong I have little faith at this point that the writing is going to be any more introspective than neon go brr... and that makes for a bad fucking Cyberpunk game
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
I don't know how much writing chops they really have. Isn't this their first original game? The Witcher series is arguably much easier for them to work with because all of the characters, the world, the themes are already extremely well defined in numerous books. If you want to be really uncharitable, they were basically writing Witcher fan fiction.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,661
Hamburg, Germany
Sure, but I (and probably others) first thought that that tweet was from the official CP2077/CDPR twitter account which changes things slightly in my eyes.

It's highly unlikely that whoever put that homage into the game is trying to say they support the confederacy or white supremacy.
I don't understand how the author of a tweet about an in-game reference changes anything about said in-game reference existing in the game, crafted by the game's creators. But sure, let's again assume they didn't think nothing by it.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
I don't know how much writing chops they really have. Isn't this their first original game? The Witcher series is arguably much easier for them to work with because all of the characters, the world, the themes are already extremely well defined in numerous books. If you want to be really uncharitable, they were basically writing Witcher fan fiction.

This isn't a new IP.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,898
I don't understand how the author of a tweet about an in-game reference changes anything about said in-game reference existing in the game, crafted by the game's creators. But sure, let's again assume they didn't think nothing by it.

The same way the inclusion of the Chromanticore ad in the game world is one thing, but CDPR putting the spotlight on a cosplay of the character from that ad is another thing entirely. If they were drawing attention to the Dukes of Hazard reference using the official CDPR/CP2077 twitter account an argument could be made that they're going out of their way to cater to a certain crowd, whereas as it stands it's probably an ignorant, but not malicious, reference.

I could of course be wrong.

We're getting off-topic though so if I don't respond after this post that's why
 

PsychoDino

Banned
Jan 1, 2018
2
User banned (permanent): troll account
I completely understand and empathize with people in this thread, I really really do. Obviously CDPR and other gaming companies have a lot of work to do. But it really really seems to be that people are being waaaay too harsh and hard on them in this thread. They let you choose what voice to assign your character and the gender is tied to your voice. I understand peoples gripes and complaints with why they are sensitive. Is it perfect? No. Can they go farther? Sure. I really think CDPR is trying. As far as the "offensive" ads go, CDPR has stated multiple times the city is a dystopia where nothing is sacred. There are offensive sexualized ads in real life as well. In this world, body modification is common and everything can be changed. Maybe i am completely wrong and ignorant but its honestly how i feel.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,189
UK
Dukes of Hazzard was a product of its time. It isn't outwardly racist really, the problems with the show has to do with regards to them depicting the South and Southern heritage.

Or rather trying to avoid the true nature of it for the purposes of a comedy show about white men trying to be free against corrupt authority figures that so happens to be a policeman. It's a conservative show but it isn't mean spirited. I believe there's really more reference to moonshine operations than anything actually pertaining to the civil war.

If anything this is really the best example of CDPR's juvenile nature. "The General Lee is a cool looking car! Let's put it in our game!"
Whatever level it is, the Confederate flag is a racist symbol and you can't divorce Robert E Lee from all that, and as you said it's a conservative show about Southern USA so yeah it's not surprise racist references are abound. Let's call a spade a spade.
 

Beth Cyra

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,903
I completely understand and empathize with people in this thread, I really really do. Obviously CDPR and other gaming companies have a lot of work to do. But it really really seems to be that people are being waaaay too harsh and hard on them in this thread. They let you choose what voice to assign your character and the gender is tied to your voice. I understand peoples gripes and complaints with why they are sensitive. Is it perfect? No. Can they go farther? Sure. I really think CDPR is trying. As far as the "offensive" ads go, CDPR has stated multiple times the city is a dystopia where nothing is sacred. There are offensive sexualized ads in real life as well. In this world, body modification is common and everything can be changed. Maybe i am completely wrong and ignorant but its honestly how i feel.
This is not a good fucking excuse when they are using it to advertise in our world as well as the games.

More so when our people are fighting to not have our basic human rights stripped away, and they as a company choose to use the tired Chicks with Dicks shit that only hurts us more.

This is not fucking trying.
 

PsychoDino

Banned
Jan 1, 2018
2
This is not a good fucking excuse when they are using it to advertise in our world as well as the games.

More so when our people are fighting to not have our basic human rights stripped away, and they as a company choose to use the tired Chicks with Dicks shit that only hurts us more.

This is not fucking trying.
I cannot possibly begin to fathom the experiences and the frustration that you must experience. Just out of curiosity. How would you change the char creation stuff to be more inclusive?
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,371
Hey everyone, I just wanted to let you all know: In order to shine a light on the issues and concerns surrounding Cyberpunk 2077, we are going to be locking its OT on November 20 which is the International Transgender Day of Remembrance. This will make the issue impossible to miss, especially for anyone using that thread the day after the game launches.

Black Chamber and vestan , who have signed up to create the OT, are 100% on board with this and both were fully supportive when we contacted them about it.

The OT will be reopened on the 21st because we feel it's important to have a space where people can discuss and criticize the game without bigots and trolls dominating or shutting down the discussion. We'll be moderating as strictly as necessary to provide that space. There will be a staff post and guidelines in place to ensure this.

Additionally, in honor of Transgender Awareness Week as well as the Day of Remembrance, there will be a site logo change for the duration.

This is effing rad.
 

Beth Cyra

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,903
I cannot possibly begin to fathom the experiences and the frustration that you must experience. Just out of curiosity. How would you change the char creation stuff to be more inclusive?
How I would do it is of no consequence as there is no one universal way that can please everyone, we Trans Folk are just like other types of people and each of us have what we like/dislike or are comfortable/uncomfortable with.

That being said, absolutely the quickest of searches would show the devastation and danger of locking a Voice pitch to a gender.

Even Cisgendered Women can end up with deep voices and have it be problematic let alone the dangers and harm it can cause to the Trans Community.
 

crienne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,175
I cannot possibly begin to fathom the experiences and the frustration that you must experience. Just out of curiosity. How would you change the char creation stuff to be more inclusive?

In my opinion? Let the player make their character look however they want, sound however they want, and then let them choose the pronouns their character wants to use. That includes neutral pronouns like they/them.

Of course I can't speak to trans experiences as I very much look like my assigned gender (AMAB) even though I'm non-binary.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
There is just literally no excuse for the voice limitation at all. Whatever reason that ended up happening for, it's completely wrong.
 
May 26, 2018
24,021
There is just literally no excuse for the voice limitation at all. Whatever reason that ended up happening for, it's completely wrong.

If they really wanted to couch it, they could say "there are many instances where the male-sounding voice refers to themselves as a man, and vice versa, and we've already recorded the lines"

but something tells me that's not it? If they really wanted to make it an option, they've recorded 30 billion lines, what's probably, like... 20 or 30 more?
 

Kyrona

Member
Jul 9, 2020
509
As far as the "offensive" ads go, CDPR has stated multiple times the city is a dystopia where nothing is sacred. There are offensive sexualized ads in real life as well. In this world, body modification is common and everything can be changed. Maybe i am completely wrong and ignorant but its honestly how i feel.

I'm going to repost this couple of paragraphs I sent yesterday for you, and I will need you to pay attention to it.


It doesn't matter why the fetishization is done. Straight up, it doesn't. It doesn't in a world where an unfortunate percentage of people view trans women as men who want to go into women's bathrooms to abuse women. It doesn't in a world where cosplay of a trans character is met 50/50 with either "wow traps are hot" or gifs of Ace Ventura gagging from a decidedly transphobic scene. You can't market this shit as a dystopian future when it is the type of shit we have to deal with every day.

And no, they may not believe the fetishization is good (I doubt they have a problem with it), but even then they are using us in their own corporate way to get their point across, when there are other ways they could do so without exploiting harmful ideas of an already vulnerable group.
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,023
"It's a dystopia!" is so weak because you could excuse any forms of bigotry that way. It's obvious it's being restricted by what's "ok" (I say this loosely) in the modern lens.

Can you imagine characters throwing around racial slurs and antisemitism all the time? I mean it's a "dystopia", right? Why aren't all the women just enslaved or a lower class of people? Other dystopia fiction does it, obviously that means we can use it with no regards to the message behind it or the affect it has on current society, right?
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
They let you choose what voice to assign your character and the gender is tied to your voice. I understand peoples gripes and complaints with why they are sensitive. Is it perfect? No. Can they go farther? Sure. I really think CDPR is trying.
No.

Shovel Knight, Pyre and Read Only Memories are trying.
CDPR is fetishizing and coasting on progressive marketing. They are not trying. They didn't even ask for help.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
Whatever level it is, the Confederate flag is a racist symbol and you can't divorce Robert E Lee from all that, and as you said it's a conservative show about Southern USA so yeah it's not surprise racist references are abound. Let's call a spade a spade.

The point is that people are likely misattributing malice where there is extremely likely to be no malice. It absolutely does matter because the General Lee is absolutely one of the most famous cars in TV history. I'm in Australia, a place where 99% of people would not be able to point where the US state of Georgia is located, and everyone knows what the orange Dodge Charger is from. In the case of the show itself, it was about a bunch of guys trying to maintain "Southern tradition". Which wasn't about erecting confederate statues but rather maintaining freedom through "fighting the British, Confederacy, and US Government".

The root of the conservative nature of the show is small c conservatism and not cross burning hood wearing KKK nationalism that the current Republican Party is happy to be. The explicit problem of the show is that it painted a South that did not exist. The "racist references" don't really exist in the show because they didn't even bother dealing with that aspect of Southern heritage. It was all about moonshining and the myths surrounding the men and women who engaged in that practice. I can't remember a single black person in the show and its a show based in Georgia. The Confederate flag and naming of the car isn't a really great example that the show and car are inherently racist references (yes they are now but there was a huge blind spot in the 1970s) when its a show developed in Carter era curiosity with all things Southern. I do not believe the show was being malicious and intent is absolutely critical with these things in my opinion.

There's no need to attribute malice to what is likely someone who thinks "vroom vroom dodge charger is cool car vroom vroom" when they're actually being malicious through their social media towards...just about everything else. Its a pretty "ehhh" thing to be upset about when there's so much other concrete things to blast them over.
 
Last edited:
May 26, 2018
24,021
"It's a dystopia!" is so weak because you could excuse any forms of bigotry that way. It's obvious it's being restricted by what's "ok" (I say this loosely) in the modern lens.

Can you imagine characters throwing around racial slurs and antisemitism all the time? I mean it's a "dystopia", right? Why aren't all the women just enslaved or a lower class of people? Other dystopia fiction does it, obviously that means we can use it with no regards to the message behind it or the affect it has on current society, right?

Probably because Night City doesn't actually strike them as extremely dystopian? It's nice to say it is, for PR, but they might be more excited to depict it from a power fantasy standpoint where you are a cool loner 80s future guy who goes partying late at night and gets into danger with gangs and big corporate bosses, all the while paying visual homage to cool films that exist in a cyberpunk pop culture space.

Everything's dirty, nothing's easy, people are shitheads, and you have a huge gun. Now go.

I could be wrong but it seems that way so far.

This same power dynamic existed in their Witcher games but those were books first.
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,023
Probably because Night City doesn't actually strike them as extremely dystopian? It's nice to say it is, for PR, but they might be more excited to depict it from a power fantasy standpoint where you are a cool loner 80s future guy who goes partying late at night and gets into danger with gangs and big corporate bosses, all the while paying visual homage to cool films that exist in a cyberpunk pop culture space.

Everything's dirty, nothing's easy, people are shitheads. Now go.

I could be wrong but it seems that way so far.

This same power dynamic existed in their Witcher games but those were books first.
That's exactly what it comes across as. All window dressing, no substance. People are trying to bring in "well of course unchecked capitalism would exploit trans women", but when the fiction has nothing to actually say, they shouldn't be surprised that using people's very real and current suffering for nothing more than "this is cool" is nothing more than bigotry, full stop.
 

Deleted member 64002

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2020
813
Hey everyone, I just wanted to let you all know: In order to shine a light on the issues and concerns surrounding Cyberpunk 2077, we are going to be locking its OT on November 20 which is the International Transgender Day of Remembrance. This will make the issue impossible to miss, especially for anyone using that thread the day after the game launches.

Black Chamber and vestan , who have signed up to create the OT, are 100% on board with this and both were fully supportive when we contacted them about it.

The OT will be reopened on the 21st because we feel it's important to have a space where people can discuss and criticize the game without bigots and trolls dominating or shutting down the discussion. We'll be moderating as strictly as necessary to provide that space. There will be a staff post and guidelines in place to ensure this.

Additionally, in honor of Transgender Awareness Week as well as the Day of Remembrance, there will be a site logo change for the duration.
This is such a great move I appreciate this motion a ton. Thank you for listening and taking the time to work this issue out it really means a lot for our community.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
Yea, from what I've seen, it doesn't look that much dystopia at all and more just like first person GTA with rpg elements in a "cool future city". So that makes that defense (which is already bad), even more null.
 

purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
Hey everyone, I just wanted to let you all know: In order to shine a light on the issues and concerns surrounding Cyberpunk 2077, we are going to be locking its OT on November 20 which is the International Transgender Day of Remembrance. This will make the issue impossible to miss, especially for anyone using that thread the day after the game launches.

Black Chamber and vestan , who have signed up to create the OT, are 100% on board with this and both were fully supportive when we contacted them about it.

The OT will be reopened on the 21st because we feel it's important to have a space where people can discuss and criticize the game without bigots and trolls dominating or shutting down the discussion. We'll be moderating as strictly as necessary to provide that space. There will be a staff post and guidelines in place to ensure this.

Additionally, in honor of Transgender Awareness Week as well as the Day of Remembrance, there will be a site logo change for the duration.
This is good stuff. I hope there'll be a thread on why the OT is temporarily locked explaining International Transgender Day of Remembrance. Would be nice to see a thread on important trans issues gain the page views the Cyberpunk OT would.
 

never

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,837
There's no need to attribute malice to what is likely someone who thinks "vroom vroom dodge charger is cool car vroom vroom" when they're actually being malicious through their social media towards...just about everything else. Its a pretty "ehhh" thing to be upset about when there's so much other concrete things to blast them over.

It doesn't matter if it's malice or ignorance, just because the show decided to try and humanize the symbol of the confederate flag by not addressing the reality of the symbol, doesn't mean it's a good idea to continue to do that today. That symbol has no place in our current day society as something to get nostalgic or excited about.
 

ConVito

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,095
It doesn't matter if it's malice or ignorance, just because the show decided to try and humanize the symbol of the confederate flag by not addressing the reality of the symbol, doesn't mean it's a good idea to continue to do that today. That symbol has no place in our current day society as something to get nostalgic or excited about.
This brings up an important distinction that needs to be common knowledge.

Many forms of bigotry aren't inherently based in malice. A good amount of the time, it's entirely due to ignorance, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Unfortunately, lots of people react to "that thing you said sounds kinda racist/homophobic/transphobic/etc." by instantly going on the defensive rather than attempting to learn why they were called out. They see "that's racist" to mean "you're a bad person" rather than "you said an offensive thing, but I respect you enough to give you a chance to prove this isn't who you really are."
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I completely understand and empathize with people in this thread, I really really do. Obviously CDPR and other gaming companies have a lot of work to do. But it really really seems to be that people are being waaaay too harsh and hard on them in this thread. They let you choose what voice to assign your character and the gender is tied to your voice. I understand peoples gripes and complaints with why they are sensitive. Is it perfect? No. Can they go farther? Sure. I really think CDPR is trying. As far as the "offensive" ads go, CDPR has stated multiple times the city is a dystopia where nothing is sacred. There are offensive sexualized ads in real life as well. In this world, body modification is common and everything can be changed. Maybe i am completely wrong and ignorant but its honestly how i feel.
Yes, you are completely wrong and ignorant.
Let me address your points though I cant imagine you returning to this thread.

But it really really seems to be that people are being waaaay too harsh and hard on them in this thread.
Would you be saying this if this was a collation of massively racist things they have done? If they were mocking a ethnic minority would you say we are too harsh then? Why are you giving them the benefit of the doubt after years of this shit?
I can only imagine that you haven't fully read the OP or the justification for the anger.

They let you choose what voice to assign your character and the gender is tied to your voice. I understand peoples gripes and complaints with why they are sensitive. Is it perfect? No. Can they go farther? Sure. I really think CDPR is trying.
Well fuck, I guess we should just be happy with the scraps of rotten food being thrown under the table here, since they are "trying" so hard. The pronouns tied to voice issue is EXPLICITLY laid out in the OP and explained why it is offensive. This is a game set in a "dystopian future" where body modification is the norm. So why is it overwhelmingly cisgender and heteronormative? Why haven't they tried to be more inclusive?
The shit pronoun system was only added AFTER all the transphobia controversy which they STILL continue to double down on.

As far as the "offensive" ads go, CDPR has stated multiple times the city is a dystopia where nothing is sacred. There are offensive sexualized ads in real life as well. In this world, body modification is common and everything can be changed.
Again, completely covered by the OP. You are being willfully ignorant and coming in to try and make us feel bad for not being accepting enough of a company that has consistently shown not to care.

You can absolutely fuck off with your ignorance.

Also its completely suspicious that these are your only 2 posts ever. You finally decide to engage in a conversation just to be this ignorant?
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,138
I should preface this as I am kind of drunk.

Any way. Everything outlined is far beyond reasonable. You actually see the harm and concern in the OP and various posts throughout this entire thread. It would be a disservice to ignore, denounce, and deny these claims. These are things that have very real consequences for people in your lives. Ignoring that is a tantamount to a a betrayal of who you think you are.

Good shit, Kyuuji. you do fucking awesome work.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,189
UK
Yes, you are completely wrong and ignorant.
Let me address your points though I cant imagine you returning to this thread.
Of course not, because trolls want to concern troll and take the heat off the company like that post did with only 2 posts, so that people can fall into the trap of over-explaining and they can slink away with a ban to where they came from.
tenor.gif

I'll applaud your effort to engage them assuming their good faith, though.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
Of course not, because trolls want to concern troll and take the heat off the company like that post did with only 2 posts, so that people can fall into the trap of over-explaining and they can slink away with a ban to where they came from.
tenor.gif

I'll applaud your effort to engage them assuming their good faith, though.
Yeah I attempted just in case, he was still online for a good while and didn't engage so I reported them.
They were a surprisingly well thought out and better worded troll than most to be fair
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,189
UK
Yeah I attempted just in case, he was still online for a good while and didn't engage so I reported them.
They were a surprisingly well thought out and better worded troll than most to be fair
That's why JAQing off is a thing. Trolls will use politeness and civility to mask their true intentions. Nazis have been doing it forever, so it's no surprise trolls will pick up on how to code their language to court the mainstream.
 

MrMysterio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
Yea, from what I've seen, it doesn't look that much dystopia at all and more just like first person GTA with rpg elements in a "cool future city". So that makes that defense (which is already bad), even more null.

Think it's quite clear the people who made this game grew up on the level of satire GTA has taught them. A cis-male perspective irony that's been quite common place since the 90s and is a very harmful substitute for actual politics or just even a tiny amount of critical thinking.

There is nothing dystopian about what CDPR has shown of Cyberpunk so far (and I really don't want to engage with their story-telling any further to disprove my suspicions of their lack of telling any kind of interesting "future" narrative).

If anything, CDPR has shown us a very REDUCTIVE mirror of current opinions. Reductive, because it is seen from a privileged cis-male perspective that can only ever understand the world through their own bro-goggles.

Cybernetics turn to toys for men in aid of jizzing rather to question the supposed nature of their identities.
A dystopian city becomes the set for yet another rag-to-riches (with unexpected tragic twist at the end) story.
Non-English language is, as always, just a flourish for aggressive male cursing.

In contrast, here's a snippet of Donna Haraway's Cyborg Manifesto (published in 1985):
"The cyborg does not dream of community on the model of the organic family, this time without the oedipal project. The cyborg would not recognize the Garden of Eden; it is not made of mud and cannot dream of returning to dust."

Oof. Imagine a company with the cultural reach of CDPR made a game just HALF as interesting as that quote. Holy shit, the progressive discussion we could have that would actually ENRICH us, rather than having to minimise the actual harm CDPR's cultural output is doing.
Just imagine any kind of utopia looking back at this year - so what did they do culturally in that year 2020? The year that changed our world so drastically? What kind of vision of the future did these people have during these times of turmoil and hardship?

It is highly disappointing that we live in a dystopia of tech-billionaires, proto-fascist businessmen and a patriarchal cultural industry - and what we are looking forward to the most this year is an even lesser version of that, set in a supposed future, which feels more like the fan-fiction mirror world as seen by a 40-year old man-baby.

Your escapism is shit. Your dreams are boring. Your future is fucking dated.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
Think it's quite clear the people who made this game grew up on the level of satire GTA has taught them. A cis-male perspective irony that's been quite common place since the 90s and is a very harmful substitute for actual politics or just even a tiny amount of critical thinking.

There is nothing dystopian about what CDPR has shown of Cyberpunk so far (and I really don't want to engage with their story-telling any further to disprove my suspicions of their lack of telling any kind of interesting "future" narrative).

If anything, CDPR has shown us a very REDUCTIVE mirror of current opinions. Reductive, because it is seen from a privileged cis-male perspective that can only ever understand the world through their own bro-goggles.

Cybernetics turn to toys for men in aid of jizzing rather to question the supposed nature of their identities.
A dystopian city becomes the set for yet another rag-to-riches (with unexpected tragic twist at the end) story.
Non-English language is, as always, just a flourish for aggressive male cursing.

In contrast, here's a snippet of Donna Haraway's Cyborg Manifesto (published in 1985):
"The cyborg does not dream of community on the model of the organic family, this time without the oedipal project. The cyborg would not recognize the Garden of Eden; it is not made of mud and cannot dream of returning to dust."

Oof. Imagine a company with the cultural reach of CDPR made a game just HALF as interesting as that quote. Holy shit, the progressive discussion we could have that would actually ENRICH us, rather than having to minimise the actual harm CDPR's cultural output is doing.
Just imagine any kind of utopia looking back at this year - so what did they do culturally in that year 2020? The year that changed our world so drastically? What kind of vision of the future did these people have during these times of turmoil and hardship?

It is highly disappointing that we live in a dystopia of tech-billionaires, proto-fascist businessmen and a patriarchal cultural industry - and what we are looking forward to the most this year is an even lesser version of that, set in a supposed future, which feels more like the fan-fiction mirror world as seen by a 40-year old man-baby.

Your escapism is shit. Your dreams are boring. Your future is fucking dated.
Very well said.
 

itshutton

Member
Nov 1, 2017
546
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing concerns around transphobia, ignoring staff post
A very well put together thread OP.

I think the tweets speak of an ignorance in the company and CDPR really need to educate their staff, particularly the PR staff. I'm also glad they fired the GoG employee.

That being said, the in-game representations are more open for interpretation. I do not believe there is any intent to discriminate (but perhaps some ignorance) and I will wait to play the game to understand more of the context.

I think Cyberpunk is a dystopia and sex/gender is going to be a big topic for discussion particularly with the possibility of body augmentation. Ignoring it would be more wrong.

Finally, the dialogue being tied to voice tone, I am sure is an oversight earlier in the development. It seems like a practical element to do with dialogue mapping and I imagine modifying this for such a huge amount of dialogue would be a colossal undertaking. I think the OP will need to accept that for 99% of people, this won't impact their experience. This is not a CDPR issue and I can't think of many games that cater to a transgender audience in this way (but please correct me if I'm wrong).
 

Fallout-NL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,722
Think it's quite clear the people who made this game grew up on the level of satire GTA has taught them. A cis-male perspective irony that's been quite common place since the 90s and is a very harmful substitute for actual politics or just even a tiny amount of critical thinking.

There is nothing dystopian about what CDPR has shown of Cyberpunk so far (and I really don't want to engage with their story-telling any further to disprove my suspicions of their lack of telling any kind of interesting "future" narrative).

If anything, CDPR has shown us a very REDUCTIVE mirror of current opinions. Reductive, because it is seen from a privileged cis-male perspective that can only ever understand the world through their own bro-goggles.

Cybernetics turn to toys for men in aid of jizzing rather to question the supposed nature of their identities.
A dystopian city becomes the set for yet another rag-to-riches (with unexpected tragic twist at the end) story.
Non-English language is, as always, just a flourish for aggressive male cursing.

In contrast, here's a snippet of Donna Haraway's Cyborg Manifesto (published in 1985):
"The cyborg does not dream of community on the model of the organic family, this time without the oedipal project. The cyborg would not recognize the Garden of Eden; it is not made of mud and cannot dream of returning to dust."

Oof. Imagine a company with the cultural reach of CDPR made a game just HALF as interesting as that quote. Holy shit, the progressive discussion we could have that would actually ENRICH us, rather than having to minimise the actual harm CDPR's cultural output is doing.
Just imagine any kind of utopia looking back at this year - so what did they do culturally in that year 2020? The year that changed our world so drastically? What kind of vision of the future did these people have during these times of turmoil and hardship?

It is highly disappointing that we live in a dystopia of tech-billionaires, proto-fascist businessmen and a patriarchal cultural industry - and what we are looking forward to the most this year is an even lesser version of that, set in a supposed future, which feels more like the fan-fiction mirror world as seen by a 40-year old man-baby.

Your escapism is shit. Your dreams are boring. Your future is fucking dated.

Exactly this. From the start, Cyberpunk 2077 has looked like a huge missed opportunity at best, but is likely something much worse.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
A very well put together thread OP.

I think the tweets speak of an ignorance in the company and CDPR really need to educate their staff, particularly the PR staff. I'm also glad they fired the GoG employee.

That being said, the in-game representations are more open for interpretation. I do not believe there is any intent to discriminate (but perhaps some ignorance) and I will wait to play the game to understand more of the context.

I think Cyberpunk is a dystopia and sex/gender is going to be a big topic for discussion particularly with the possibility of body augmentation. Ignoring it would be more wrong.

Finally, the dialogue being tied to voice tone, I am sure is an oversight earlier in the development. It seems like a practical element to do with dialogue mapping and I imagine modifying this for such a huge amount of dialogue would be a colossal undertaking. I think the OP will need to accept that for 99% of people, this won't impact their experience. This is not a CDPR issue and I can't think of many games that cater to a transgender audience in this way (but please correct me if I'm wrong).
Imagine defending a company this much. How anyone can read the OP and come to the conclusion that all of this is just misguided ignorance is beyond me.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,189
UK
Think it's quite clear the people who made this game grew up on the level of satire GTA has taught them. A cis-male perspective irony that's been quite common place since the 90s and is a very harmful substitute for actual politics or just even a tiny amount of critical thinking.

There is nothing dystopian about what CDPR has shown of Cyberpunk so far (and I really don't want to engage with their story-telling any further to disprove my suspicions of their lack of telling any kind of interesting "future" narrative).

If anything, CDPR has shown us a very REDUCTIVE mirror of current opinions. Reductive, because it is seen from a privileged cis-male perspective that can only ever understand the world through their own bro-goggles.

Cybernetics turn to toys for men in aid of jizzing rather to question the supposed nature of their identities.
A dystopian city becomes the set for yet another rag-to-riches (with unexpected tragic twist at the end) story.
Non-English language is, as always, just a flourish for aggressive male cursing.

In contrast, here's a snippet of Donna Haraway's Cyborg Manifesto (published in 1985):
"The cyborg does not dream of community on the model of the organic family, this time without the oedipal project. The cyborg would not recognize the Garden of Eden; it is not made of mud and cannot dream of returning to dust."

Oof. Imagine a company with the cultural reach of CDPR made a game just HALF as interesting as that quote. Holy shit, the progressive discussion we could have that would actually ENRICH us, rather than having to minimise the actual harm CDPR's cultural output is doing.
Just imagine any kind of utopia looking back at this year - so what did they do culturally in that year 2020? The year that changed our world so drastically? What kind of vision of the future did these people have during these times of turmoil and hardship?

It is highly disappointing that we live in a dystopia of tech-billionaires, proto-fascist businessmen and a patriarchal cultural industry - and what we are looking forward to the most this year is an even lesser version of that, set in a supposed future, which feels more like the fan-fiction mirror world as seen by a 40-year old man-baby.

Your escapism is shit. Your dreams are boring. Your future is fucking dated.
☝🏾


It's why 80s era aping of cyberpunk with neon colours and big corporations is boring, irrelevant, like Altered Carbon and bound to be Cyberpunk 2077, while cyberpunk like Mr Robot or even Blade Runner 2049 are far more interesting.
 

Lausebub

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,151
Great OP, I don't have anything meaningful to add, only
Finally, the dialogue being tied to voice tone, I am sure is an oversight earlier in the development. It seems like a practical element to do with dialogue mapping and I imagine modifying this for such a huge amount of dialogue would be a colossal undertaking. I think the OP will need to accept that for 99% of people, this won't impact their experience. This is not a CDPR issue and I can't think of many games that cater to a transgender audience in this way (but please correct me if I'm wrong).
Pretty sure this is not an oversight, but a monetary decision, since they would have to record multiple voice tracks, because most languages are still shit
when it comes to gendering.
 
Dec 2, 2017
20,640
A very well put together thread OP.

I think the tweets speak of an ignorance in the company and CDPR really need to educate their staff, particularly the PR staff. I'm also glad they fired the GoG employee.

That being said, the in-game representations are more open for interpretation. I do not believe there is any intent to discriminate (but perhaps some ignorance) and I will wait to play the game to understand more of the context.

I think Cyberpunk is a dystopia and sex/gender is going to be a big topic for discussion particularly with the possibility of body augmentation. Ignoring it would be more wrong.

Finally, the dialogue being tied to voice tone, I am sure is an oversight earlier in the development. It seems like a practical element to do with dialogue mapping and I imagine modifying this for such a huge amount of dialogue would be a colossal undertaking. I think the OP will need to accept that for 99% of people, this won't impact their experience. This is not a CDPR issue and I can't think of many games that cater to a transgender audience in this way (but please correct me if I'm wrong).
You literally have a Witcher character as your avatar. This is pretty transparent.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,433
FIN
Pretty sure this is not an oversight, but a monetary decision, since they would have to record multiple voice tracks, because most languages are still shit
when it comes to gendering.

Decoupling the two would have worked as is, right? Dialogue as it's written works in languages that are gendered no matter what. Third option would have needed to be written for languages with non-gendered pronouns if they were to go "extra mile" (I know that isn't best way to put it...). It would need them write a lot supporting dialogue too for NPC's, but that is what it's when going all the way.

What they have they could have noun specify is V feminine or masculine where tone is just tone. Select feminine noun with masculine tone and it has man VA delivering line for feminine V. Basically have V VA's record both, he and she dialogues.

Edit: It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than what it's now and work with what they got