CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.

[MrMysterio]

Thanks for the nice replies to my rant.

Also thanks Messofanego for the youtube video. It really drives home the fact that we're not looking at any kind of dystopian fiction with Cyberpunk 2077. It's regressive nostalgia-bait laced with lazy gaming tropes.

Agree with John Kowalski - really is a super-important thread. I do remember some attempts at manifesting some counter to racism within the gaming community, which fell off the 1st page very quickly sadly.

I think the OP will need to accept that for 99% of people, this [voices being tied to gender] won't impact their experience. This is not a CDPR issue and I can't think of many games that cater to a transgender audience in this way (but please correct me if I'm wrong).

Click to shrink...

The voice and gender discussion isn't a "transgender audience" problem, and it totally is a CDPR issue, as they are the one deciding what happens within their game. It shows a total lack of commitment to an audience that demands MORE from a game of this scope, access to resources and cultural reach.

Also, nice to know that you can speak for 99% of people's future experiences in order to tell the OP what they "will need to accept", yet give CDPR the benefit of the doubt until you start playing the game.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

It's funny that defenders of the game say, "wait until it's out!"

At this rate, once the game is in people's hands, there'll likely be yet another controversy. Only this time, it'll involve a major quest that will have the most tone-deaf handling of race/sexuality, that would even make Rockstar blush. I have zero faith that the writing in this game will be memorable, especially from the "GTA but future" things they've voluntarily demoed so far.

But by that point, all the CDPR defenders will be gleefully playing the game, and cheering on their favorite AAA company, for reaching its sales milestones.

 

[SuiQuan]

The "dystopian future" defense holds no water to me no matter how many times it gets repeated in this thread. It's already well-explained in the OP, but I'll just put it another way: you supposedly have a dark world full of injustice, but your promotional material is basically "look at our cool world, look at our cool gangs, look at our cool cars, look at our cool clothes, look at our cool freaks, take a gander at this dude in girls clothes!" I've watched and seen all of their promo material and nowhere in there do I see the despair, wretchedness and injustice of a cyberpunk world. The only exceptions are the very fist video from like 2018 and the CG trailer where the protag's partner gets supposedly killed, but even these hardly address the issue here, because neither of these two deal with transgender rights, race or anything else of the sort. I mean, how hard is it really? You have no one on your team to give you advice in terms of specific race, nationality, orientation, etc? You should, but even if you don't - ask, create an opinion poll, hire a consultant - anything. You have the money, you have the resources, and no, it will not hamper your "vision" or whatever, it'll help you to actually make it work. You want this "Mix it up" add in your game? Maybe ask the trans community how to make it work in the context of the game, if at all, because when you touch on topics like this you already know the ground you are treading on - it was your choice to put it there, so deal with it the best way you can. It's not a "weapon durability"-level nuisance you are dealing with here.

 

[Elfgore]

Fantastic write up from OP on this and good action from the staff here. Appreciation for the OT creators as well for being onboard. I really hope some bigger news outlets pick up on this.

Yea, from what I've seen, it doesn't look that much dystopia at all and more just like first person GTA with rpg elements in a "cool future city". So that makes that defense (which is already bad), even more null.

Click to shrink...

Agree 100%. I'd already lost most of my interest after the second gameplay reveal, to the point I didn't even finish it.

 

[FormatCompatible]

"This is a dystopian future it's supposed to be that way!" is just another thermian argument designed to shut down discussion of the problematic elements of this game and it's developers. The developers were the ones who wrote this world and it's gross depictions of trans people to be this way, and using the excuse that "that's just how cyberpunk is" to justify it is just a complete fallacy.

 

[Razmos]

It does amuse me that the thread title is literally "We need to stop making excuses"... and people come in making excuses about how its just the developers not understanding trans issues like its totally okay to just not understand it. If you are a person who has never encountered anything trans related and arent sure and need educating? Fine whatever, please do.

A company though? With a public face and selling their products to an international audience and engaging with people by social media? No excuse. At all.

 

[Lausebub]

Decoupling the two would have worked as is, right? Dialogue as it's written works in languages that are gendered no matter what. Third option would have needed to be written for languages with non-gendered pronouns if they were to go "extra mile" (I know that isn't best way to put it...). It would need them write a lot supporting dialogue too for NPC's, but that is what it's when going all the way.

What they have they could have noun specify is V feminine or masculine where tone is just tone. Select feminine noun with masculine tone and it has man VA delivering line for feminine V. Basically have V VA's record both, he and she dialogues.

Edit: It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than what it's now and work with what they got

Click to shrink...

Since V talks a lot, the feminin sounding voice probably refers to themselves in their dialog as female, since that is unavoidable in a lot of languages.
So they would have to spent extra money on the VO, which they didn't want to do.

 

[Tovarisc]

Since V talks a lot, the feminin sounding voice probably refers to themselves in their dialog as female, since that is unavoidable in a lot of languages.
So they would have to spent extra money on the VO, which they didn't want to do.

Click to shrink...

Spending money on VO isn't an issue for CDPR.

They are doing whole Korean voice localization in rapid succession (hiring VA's, directors, recording, editing, lip syncing...) for December patch. That VO wasn't planned originally and was decided on at last stretch of development because fans kept asking for it.

Edit: Also if you were to choose feminine noun (V will be perceived as she by the game) with masculine tone (masculine VO work) and VA doing masculine lines having all the lines for feminine V too wouldn't that work? He as a she would refer to herself as she, in masculine tone.

Edit2: ah.. yeah.. I get what you meant that CDPR didn't want have V VA's doing double takes...

 

[Aprikurt]

The "dystopian future" defense holds no water to me no matter how many times it gets repeated in this thread. It's already well-explained in the OP, but I'll just put it another way: you supposedly have a dark world full of injustice, but your promotional material is basically "look at our cool world, look at our cool gangs, look at our cool cars, look at our cool clothes, look at our cool freaks, take a gander at this dude in girls clothes!" I've watched and seen all of their promo material and nowhere in there do I see the despair, wretchedness and injustice of a cyberpunk world. The only exceptions are the very fist video from like 2018 and the CG trailer where the protag's partner gets supposedly killed, but even these hardly address the issue here, because neither of these two deal with transgender rights, race or anything else of the sort. I mean, how hard is it really? You have no one on your team to give you advice in terms of specific race, nationality, orientation, etc? You should, but even if you don't - ask, create an opinion poll, hire a consultant - anything. You have the money, you have the resources, and no, it will not hamper your "vision" or whatever, it'll help you to actually make it work. You want this "Mix it up" add in your game? Maybe ask the trans community how to make it work in the context of the game, if at all, because when you touch on topics like this you already know the ground you are treading on - it was your choice to put it there, so deal with it the best way you can. It's not a "weapon durability"-level nuisance you are dealing with here.

Click to shrink...

Not to mention Fallout New Vegas was totally a dystopia but also managed to have LGBT representation

 

[DGS]

Thank you, OP. Great and insightful read.

Bookmarking this thread.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

☝🏾


It's why 80s era aping of cyberpunk with neon colours and big corporations is boring, irrelevant, like Altered Carbon and bound to be Cyberpunk 2077, while cyberpunk like Mr Robot or even Blade Runner 2049 are far more interesting.

Click to shrink...

I liked the video!

On the subject of tapping into modern fears (instead of large billboards), I'm surprised more works haven't extended into Steven Speilberg's vision of the future found in Minority Report. The idea that little robots are everywhere watching you, scanning your eyes everywhere you go to feed you inescapable ads combined with the desperation to escape them that would lead someone to having their own eyes extracted in shady backroom clinic...I mean, how is that not perfect for a new movie in the genre?




It captures the same fear that the transformed LA would have invoked in the 80s. That scene earns a genuine, "no, fuck that future" reaction from the audience. And that's just one example of many from that movie. I'm actually a bit surprised that he didn't mention Minority Report in this critique.

 

[Yukari]

Edit wrong forum

 

[Pantalaimon]

Watch how this has absolutely zero impact on the game's sales :/

 

[Messofanego]

It's funny that defenders of the game say, "wait until it's out!"

At this rate, once the game is in people's hands, there'll likely be yet another controversy. Only this time, it'll involve a major quest that will have the most tone-deaf handling of race/sexuality, that would even make Rockstar blush. I have zero faith that the writing in this game will be memorable, especially from the "GTA but future" things they've voluntarily demoed so far.

But by that point, all the CDPR defenders will be gleefully playing the game, and cheering on their favorite AAA company, for reaching its sales milestones.

Click to shrink...

The whole "wait until it's out" argument always come from a defensive position to shut down discussion, it's never been in good faith. Like you said, once the game is out, they know they can drown out the concerns and criticisms brought up. Especially when it gets easily lost in a big OT and if it gets its own thread, those same people can ignore it and keep slobbering over the game in the OT.

 

[Pantalaimon]

Wow, that's a draconian discussion tone policy from the mods. Can we get an equally detailed guide on what kind of discussion is actually allowed?

 

[Rotobit]

Another way the "it's a dystopia" argument doesn't hold water is because they're actively using the transphobic ads in real life, both with the booth posters and the cosplay

it'd be like if 2K put up this from Bioshock Infinite at its E3 booth

and then celebrated fans dressing up as the characters at the bottom

 

[Sachiel]

The "dystopian future" defense holds no water to me no matter how many times it gets repeated in this thread. It's already well-explained in the OP, but I'll just put it another way: you supposedly have a dark world full of injustice, but your promotional material is basically "look at our cool world, look at our cool gangs, look at our cool cars, look at our cool clothes, look at our cool freaks, take a gander at this dude in girls clothes!"

Click to shrink...

It would be really really cool if halfway through the game they pull an Abby an all of a sudden reverse the cool future trope to make everyone feel really uncomfortable by depicting the world as something truly hostile and hollow. In for the long con. Unfortunately that's probably about as likely as Mitch McConnell feeling empathy.

 

[Razmos]

Wow, that's a draconian discussion tone policy from the mods. Can we get an equally detailed guide on what kind of discussion is actually allowed?

Click to shrink...

How about no
I notice you just changed your visible pronouns too for the lolz

 

[FormatCompatible]

How about no
I notice you just changed your visible pronouns too for the lolz

Click to shrink...

It's another clear troll, report and don't engage.

 

[Pantalaimon]

How about no
I notice you just changed your visible pronouns too for the lolz

Click to shrink...

 

[ZeoVGM]

.

Click to shrink...

You tried to put something here but the post is blank. Try again?

 

[Maxime]

Wow, that's a draconian discussion tone policy from the mods. Can we get an equally detailed guide on what kind of discussion is actually allowed?

Click to shrink...

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www.resetera.com

 

[rsfour]

Watch how this has absolutely zero impact on the game's sales :/

Click to shrink...

People don't give a fuck unfortunately. Had this game been made by Trump or Hitler, people would ignore that aspect and still buy it.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Could someone please explain to me the mindset behind people who make troll accounts?

I mean some of them are made months, if not years ago, and just sitting there so that the person can eventually troll a thread.

It's one of the most pathetic and embarrassing things imaginable.

 

[Kinsei]

Could someone please explain to me the mindset behind people who make troll accounts?

I mean some of them are made months, if not years ago, and just sitting there so that the person can eventually troll a thread.

It's one of the most pathetic and embarrassing things imaginable.

Click to shrink...

People whose hatred compels them to post but don't want their main account to be banned.

 

[Razmos]

It's another clear troll, report and don't engage.

Click to shrink...

I thought it was worth mentioning since I literally saw them change their pronouns when the page refreshed, I didnt want them to hide behind that. I did report them as well

 

[Young Liar]

Think it's quite clear the people who made this game grew up on the level of satire GTA has taught them. A cis-male perspective irony that's been quite common place since the 90s and is a very harmful substitute for actual politics or just even a tiny amount of critical thinking.

There is nothing dystopian about what CDPR has shown of Cyberpunk so far (and I really don't want to engage with their story-telling any further to disprove my suspicions of their lack of telling any kind of interesting "future" narrative).

If anything, CDPR has shown us a very REDUCTIVE mirror of current opinions. Reductive, because it is seen from a privileged cis-male perspective that can only ever understand the world through their own bro-goggles.

Cybernetics turn to toys for men in aid of jizzing rather to question the supposed nature of their identities.
A dystopian city becomes the set for yet another rag-to-riches (with unexpected tragic twist at the end) story.
Non-English language is, as always, just a flourish for aggressive male cursing.

In contrast, here's a snippet of Donna Haraway's Cyborg Manifesto (published in 1985):
"The cyborg does not dream of community on the model of the organic family, this time without the oedipal project. The cyborg would not recognize the Garden of Eden; it is not made of mud and cannot dream of returning to dust."

Oof. Imagine a company with the cultural reach of CDPR made a game just HALF as interesting as that quote. Holy shit, the progressive discussion we could have that would actually ENRICH us, rather than having to minimise the actual harm CDPR's cultural output is doing.
Just imagine any kind of utopia looking back at this year - so what did they do culturally in that year 2020? The year that changed our world so drastically? What kind of vision of the future did these people have during these times of turmoil and hardship?

It is highly disappointing that we live in a dystopia of tech-billionaires, proto-fascist businessmen and a patriarchal cultural industry - and what we are looking forward to the most this year is an even lesser version of that, set in a supposed future, which feels more like the fan-fiction mirror world as seen by a 40-year old man-baby.

Your escapism is shit. Your dreams are boring. Your future is fucking dated.

Click to shrink...

goddamn ain't this the truth

 

[FormatCompatible]

I thought it was worth mentioning since I literally saw them change their pronouns when the page refreshed, I didnt want them to hide behind that. I did report them as well

Click to shrink...

That's fair, is just that it was such a obvious troll that I felt that engaging them would just distract for the proper discussion.

 

[Persephone]

part of me thinks the game's transphobia will remain this low-level thing that people who aren't clued into the issue will easily miss and can be easily defended as ignorance/misunderstanding. part of me thinks we've got a big storm coming of some REALLY overt bullshit when the game drops

 

[Razmos]

part of me thinks the game's transphobia will remain this low-level thing that people who aren't clued into the issue will easily miss and can be easily defended as ignorance/misunderstanding. part of me thinks we've got a big storm coming of some REALLY overt bullshit when the game drops

Click to shrink...

Oh yeah totally. There is going to be a lot more examples to bolster this thread when the game actually releases. I can guarantee it.

 

[ClickyCal']

part of me thinks the game's transphobia will remain this low-level thing that people who aren't clued into the issue will easily miss and can be easily defended as ignorance/misunderstanding. part of me thinks we've got a big storm coming of some REALLY overt bullshit when the game drops

Click to shrink...

Way more likely to be the latter.

 

[Deleted member 10726]

I've been reading this thread for a while and I have to say, before I leave things unsaid, I want to state how much I appreciate Kyuuji for making this thread and compiling this information. It's not like CDPR's transphobia wasn't blatantly displayed by them anyway based on the many transphobic things they said and did before, but having a thread compiling all of that into one is a massive contribution to driving that point home for anyone who legitimately believes they just seem transphobic "by coincidence".

It's funny that defenders of the game say, "wait until it's out!"

At this rate, once the game is in people's hands, there'll likely be yet another controversy. Only this time, it'll involve a major quest that will have the most tone-deaf handling of race/sexuality, that would even make Rockstar blush. I have zero faith that the writing in this game will be memorable, especially from the "GTA but future" things they've voluntarily demoed so far.

But by that point, all the CDPR defenders will be gleefully playing the game, and cheering on their favorite AAA company, for reaching its sales milestones.

Click to shrink...

"Wait until it's out" also doesn't really say a whole lot when their transphobia is not limited to Cyberpunk.

part of me thinks the game's transphobia will remain this low-level thing that people who aren't clued into the issue will easily miss and can be easily defended as ignorance/misunderstanding. part of me thinks we've got a big storm coming of some REALLY overt bullshit when the game drops

Click to shrink...

Oh, absolutely. People are already blatantly ignoring the issues now as demonstrated by some of the (thankfully moderated) takes here, I reckon when the game's honeymoon phase hit, it will be even more volatile than it is now regardless of how many more (and potentially far worse) examples we get.

 

[Strittles]

part of me thinks the game's transphobia will remain this low-level thing that people who aren't clued into the issue will easily miss and can be easily defended as ignorance/misunderstanding. part of me thinks we've got a big storm coming of some REALLY overt bullshit when the game drops

Click to shrink...

I'm very much expecting the latter. Anyone who has played Witcher 3 knows how much writing and quests CDPR stuffs into their games, so I fully expect there to be multiple problematic characters and themes sprinkled throughout the whole game.

 

[Phoenix Down]

Is there a video on youtube I can watch to sum up everything going on negative with the company?

 

[EdibleKnife]

Unless there's a fundamental change with CDPR, I'm personally done with this company. Can't take corporations trying to squeeze by products with themes & elements they have zero interest in educating themselves on or being right about at all to start with.

Is there a video on youtube I can watch to sum up everything going on negative with the company?

Click to shrink...

If it doesn't already exist for some of the earlier ball drops from CDPR, I wouldn't be surprised if Jim Sterling has one in the works for this week.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

On the subject of tapping into modern fears (instead of large billboards), I'm surprised more works haven't extended into Steven Speilberg's vision of the future found in Minority Report. The idea that little robots are everywhere watching you, scanning your eyes everywhere you go to feed you inescapable ads combined with the desperation to escape them that would lead someone to having their own eyes extracted in shady backroom clinic...I mean, how is that not perfect for a new movie in the genre?

Click to shrink...

And yet fast forward eighteen years and we all carry around our own little robots that log everything we do and everywhere we go and billions of dollars are spent on perfecting algorithms using that information to tailor adverts specifically for us.

 

[SuiQuan]

It would be really really cool if halfway through the game they pull an Abby an all of a sudden reverse the cool future trope to make everyone feel really uncomfortable by depicting the world as something truly hostile and hollow. In for the long con. Unfortunately that's probably about as likely as Mitch McConnell feeling empathy.

Click to shrink...

I'll gladly eat a year-worth serving of crow if that happens, though it's astronomically unlikely. But even if by some miracle it does happen, how they handled their social media communication, this cosplay thing, etc. are forever fucked. This shit sits way outside of the actual content of the game itself.

 

[Deleted member 17184]

Think it's quite clear the people who made this game grew up on the level of satire GTA has taught them. A cis-male perspective irony that's been quite common place since the 90s and is a very harmful substitute for actual politics or just even a tiny amount of critical thinking.

There is nothing dystopian about what CDPR has shown of Cyberpunk so far (and I really don't want to engage with their story-telling any further to disprove my suspicions of their lack of telling any kind of interesting "future" narrative).

If anything, CDPR has shown us a very REDUCTIVE mirror of current opinions. Reductive, because it is seen from a privileged cis-male perspective that can only ever understand the world through their own bro-goggles.

Cybernetics turn to toys for men in aid of jizzing rather to question the supposed nature of their identities.
A dystopian city becomes the set for yet another rag-to-riches (with unexpected tragic twist at the end) story.
Non-English language is, as always, just a flourish for aggressive male cursing.

In contrast, here's a snippet of Donna Haraway's Cyborg Manifesto (published in 1985):
"The cyborg does not dream of community on the model of the organic family, this time without the oedipal project. The cyborg would not recognize the Garden of Eden; it is not made of mud and cannot dream of returning to dust."

Oof. Imagine a company with the cultural reach of CDPR made a game just HALF as interesting as that quote. Holy shit, the progressive discussion we could have that would actually ENRICH us, rather than having to minimise the actual harm CDPR's cultural output is doing.
Just imagine any kind of utopia looking back at this year - so what did they do culturally in that year 2020? The year that changed our world so drastically? What kind of vision of the future did these people have during these times of turmoil and hardship?

It is highly disappointing that we live in a dystopia of tech-billionaires, proto-fascist businessmen and a patriarchal cultural industry - and what we are looking forward to the most this year is an even lesser version of that, set in a supposed future, which feels more like the fan-fiction mirror world as seen by a 40-year old man-baby.

Your escapism is shit. Your dreams are boring. Your future is fucking dated.

Click to shrink...

Your post highlights another part: even in a hypothetical scenario where CDPR wasn't transphobic, they wouldn't be right for this project because they are a huge mainstream company. This is a genre (and a franchise) that is deeply connected to progressive politics and questioning our future. And this is a game made by a studio that benefits from the status quo and have no project leads that represent the minorities that have to be key in the kind of world they're creating.

 

[Spinluck]

I like how it took Kyuuji like 5 different threads to finally get her point across lol.

Never back down till your voice is heard y'all.

Good on the mods for coming up with this solution. Let's not stop after Nov 20th tho.

 

[Razmos]

I like how it took Kyuuji like 5 different threads to finally get her point across lol.

Never back down till your voice is heard y'all.

Good on the mods for coming up with this solution. Let's not stop after Nov 20th tho.

Click to shrink...

Yep at that point we will have actual examples from the game to add as well

 

[BAD]

part of me thinks the game's transphobia will remain this low-level thing that people who aren't clued into the issue will easily miss and can be easily defended as ignorance/misunderstanding. part of me thinks we've got a big storm coming of some REALLY overt bullshit when the game drops

Click to shrink...

Both will happen. Much of it will be missed or not even seen as transphobic to many mainstream cis people. But those who care will definitely find CDPR's bigotry and ignorance given a strong foothold in their work as our previews have suggested.

 

[Mesoian]

part of me thinks the game's transphobia will remain this low-level thing that people who aren't clued into the issue will easily miss and can be easily defended as ignorance/misunderstanding. part of me thinks we've got a big storm coming of some REALLY overt bullshit when the game drops

Click to shrink...

Yeah, this all seems like some "tip of the iceberg" shit.

 

[robhans]

The problem with CP2077 not being Cyberpunk is also the IP itself. Cyberpunk 2020 isin't cyberpunk by itself and 2nd edition is basiclly alt-right wet dream. Doen't help that Mike Pondsmith is transphobic.

You know what else is funny? In Polish forums CDPR is also quite disliked for "catering for SJW", lol.

 

[BAD]

The problem with CP2077 not being Cyberpunk is also the IP itself. Cyberpunk 2020 isin't cyberpunk by itself and 2nd edition is basiclly alt-right wet dream. Doen't help that Mike Pondsmith is transphobic.

You know what else is funny? In Polish forums CDPR is also quite disliked for "catering for SJW", lol.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, CDPR fans in their own official Cyberpunk Discord server hate when CDPR even acknowledges crunch, trans people, diversity etc. They repeatedly say "don't cave in to these minority protestors" and it is disgusting. But CDPR makes a global product with partnerships across the world, from an IP outside their country. They should be held accountable to know better in 2020, especially when they've now been told for years this is an area their team is falling short on and needs to do better.

So it is clear, they are ok with transphobia and it sits among their own views.

 

[thatmustbyogurt]

I will play through this game before I make an opinion on this subject. I will come back here once I have beaten it.

Mod Edit: Post reverted

 

[Deleted member 13077]

I will play through this game before I make an opinion on this subject. I will come back here once I have beaten it.

Click to shrink...

Cool. Nothing is the game will make any of the shit they've already done better. You already have more than enough evidence in the OP.

 

[thatmustbyogurt]

Cool. Nothing is the game will make any of the shit they've already done better. You already have more than enough evidence in the OP.

Click to shrink...

ok cool. I don't like to determine someone's guilty until I have gone over the evidence myself. If anything the Trump administration has taught me to always dig deeper than what is presented to me.

Mod Edit: Post reverted

 

[Bufbaf]

Cool. Nothing is the game will make any of the shit they've already done better. You already have more than enough evidence in the OP.

Click to shrink...

Please. Wait for the detailed reports of the findings in like 18 months before dismissing the opinion of a fan who already preordered the deluxe edition and is, if I remember correctly, "fucking stoked".

Excuse my pessimism and sarcasm, if you will. I'm just getting tired of hearing the same crap every day as if people weren't reading anything in this thread before adding their hot take.

 

[Daniel Westlake]

ok cool. I don't like to determine someone's guilty until I have gone over the evidence myself. If anything the Trump administration has taught me to always dig deeper than what is presented to me.

Click to shrink...

Just galaxy brain shit here. What the hell are you even talking about.

 

[ClickyCal']

Editing out your posts doesn't make them just vanish.